Game 71: Bucks at Suns - 3/24/25 - 9:00 - NBATV/FDSWI

[MickeyDavis]

Dame is out

[paulpressey25]

Looking at win/loss records is a horrible way to evaluate a coach.

1) Independent of who the coach is, determine the level of talent on that team.

2) After making the evaluation, ask yourself, what would an average coach do with that talent? If you believe the talent is at a championship level, then it is likely that team will win or compete for a championship evey year with an average coach.
.

In the case of Bud or Nellie, they’ve been around long enough that W-L is one factor you can look at. It signifies a number of teams felt them good enough to keep them around (or other teams to keep hiring them). And my commentary above isn’t to imply that makes Bud better. But I do think they’ll be looked at as equals if Bud stays in the business another decade.

And in the case of both Nellie and Bud, they’ve gone into situations and turned clubs around. And Bud got a title with very good talent but not ‘repeat’ type talent (especially when Middleton went down in 2022).

I lived through all of Nellie’s playoff teams. If modern media had been around, he’d have been labeled a worse choker than Bud by ESPN. Instead, we properly view his success as a function of talent and good coaching.

[ShootingtheJ]

Dame is out

The fact that he's quickly listed as out, not questionable, makes me think we're not going to see him for quite awhile.

[JayMKE]

Comparing Bud to Karl is unfair since Karl was/is a grade A prick who feuds with his own players whereas Bud raised a banner for us. There is no argument that knowing what we know now that it was a mistake firing Bud when we did, Bud brought the culture and stability that this franchise lacks now. You'd have to be crazy to prefer Doc or Griff over Bud, the dumpster fire in Phoenix or a preference for a different hire doesn't change that fact.

[fan230]

So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on

Bud changed our culture. And had the greatest multi-year run of any Bucks coach ever.

Always find it interesting that after we run HOF coaches like Nellie, Karl and Bud out of town, our situation actually gets worse.

If we run Dame out of town, a HOF talent, would you expect our situation to get worse, or are you waiting to see what the return is?

Those aren’t exactly the same situations, you don’t expect coaches to regress due to age like you do a player, but it was time to move on from Bud. He was a great coach here, but it wasn’t a forgone conclusion that we would have gotten worse. The issue wasn’t moving off him, it was ending up with Griffin and then Doc. We struck out twice, but it didn’t have to be that way. I’m pretty sure we’d be in a better position if the board here would have made those decisions.

Atkinson was an asst coach under Bud. There was no way the Bucks would choose him after firing Bud.

Doc is not a good coach. Even today I would prefer to have had Bud over Griffin or Doc.

[fan230]

Out of the 13 two-man lineups w/ Giannis for the Bucks this year that have played at least 100+ minutes:

1. Giannis/KPJ: +18.3 net rating
2. Giannis/Rollins: +12.5
3. Giannis/Middleton: +11.5
4. Giannis/AJ: +10.5
5. Giannis/GTJ: +9.1
…
11. Giannis/Prince: +3.4
12. Giannis/Dre: -1.1
13. Giannis/Wright: -4.1

With Wright gone, Dre and Prince are literally the worst and 2nd worst two-man lineups with Giannis and Doc has spent almost the whole season starting either both of them next to Giannis, or starting Prince out of position next to Giannis. The guy is a total moron and we have to just sit here and pray he stumbles into a sensible starting 5 before the playoffs.

Perhaps someone knows how to communicate this via text or email to Doc or any of his assistants or to any member of the Bucks.

[fan230]

Comparing Bud to Karl is unfair since Karl was/is a grade A prick who feuds with his own players whereas Bud raised a banner for us. There is no argument that knowing what we know now that it was a mistake firing Bud when we did, Bud brought the culture and stability that this franchise lacks now. You'd have to be crazy to prefer Doc or Griff over Bud, the dumpster fire in Phoenix or a preference for a different hire doesn't change that fact.

Even at that time I strongly felt that it was a mistake to fire Bud. Today I continue to think so. Unfortunately I think a lot of people thought otherwise and still think otherwise.

[Dick Tate]

This thread is almost making me want to think about Bud.

[soxperry]

Comparing Bud to Karl is unfair since Karl was/is a grade A prick who feuds with his own players whereas Bud raised a banner for us. There is no argument that knowing what we know now that it was a mistake firing Bud when we did, Bud brought the culture and stability that this franchise lacks now. You'd have to be crazy to prefer Doc or Griff over Bud, the dumpster fire in Phoenix or a preference for a different hire doesn't change that fact.

Even at that time I strongly felt that it was a mistake to fire Bud. Today I continue to think so. Unfortunately I think a lot of people thought otherwise and still think otherwise.

Who knows.

I think the ultimate hindsight move is to keep Jrue until he retires and make Khris the guy you trade. But thats complicated and no sure thing that we end up with a guy like Dame

[Dick Tate]

There is no argument that knowing what we know now that it was a mistake firing Bud when we did

I agree

[AussieBuck]

The enduring Bud fandom remains weird. Sure his one plan got figured out years ago and he had no inclination to change, but we've since hired bad coaches so we should have stuck with Bud. There are definitely no other options in the whole world for coaches so the logic checks out.

[HKPackFan]

Suns have won 3 in a row, including a win over the Cavs in their last game, but are fighting to make the play-in.

We can all lament our coaching choices post Bud but we should not be pining for him at all. He's taken a 49-33 Suns team and turned them into a 34-37 team. He had a beef with Nurkic and they dumped him. Vogel got fired after his lone 49 win season. Then why shouldn't Bud be fired too? So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on and his season with the Suns has been a disaster.

Dunn has been a decent late FRP pick but makes AJJ look like Curry on offense. He's had a nice run the past week but is shooting just 43% overall, 31% from 3 and 47% from the free throw line.

Winning this will assure a winning west coast trip and those are never easy (Cavs are 0-3 on their current west coast trip).

And finally, our favorite Suns fan

I raise you BUCKS IN 6.

[Daver]

So wish we had hired Atkinson or even Vogel but don't cry about Bud. I appreciate him being part of the championship team and I'll applaud when he returns next month but we were right to move on

Bud changed our culture. And had the greatest multi-year run of any Bucks coach ever.

Always find it interesting that after we run HOF coaches like Nellie, Karl and Bud out of town, our situation actually gets worse.

Define me multi success if you mean RS record only than yes most people wwre expecting more than 1 chip with those great records.I nwver thought you judge a coach solely on RS records n more by plsyoff records n championships.Think in terms of that he failed with the talent he had covid year 2019 2022 etc

[ShootingtheJ]

If the Bucks win tonight, they'll be 9-4 without Dame. If that happens, it's probably time for some to rethink their opinions of Doc and Dame.

[BigO]

Looking at win/loss records is a horrible way to evaluate a coach.

1) Independent of who the coach is, determine the level of talent on that team.

2) After making the evaluation, ask yourself, what would an average coach do with that talent? If you believe the talent is at a championship level, then it is likely that team will win or compete for a championship evey year with an average coach.
.

In the case of Bud or Nellie, they’ve been around long enough that W-L is one factor you can look at. It signifies a number of teams felt them good enough to keep them around (or other teams to keep hiring them). And my commentary above isn’t to imply that makes Bud better. But I do think they’ll be looked at as equals if Bud stays in the business another decade.

And in the case of both Nellie and Bud, they’ve gone into situations and turned clubs around. And Bud got a title with very good talent but not ‘repeat’ type talent (especially when Middleton went down in 2022).

I lived through all of Nellie’s playoff teams. If modern media had been around, he’d have been labeled a worse choker than Bud by ESPN. Instead, we properly view his success as a function of talent and good coaching.

Nellie was an innovator. Different schemes, different lineups, different roles for players (e.g Paul Pressey). Bud is none of that.

[BigO]

Comparing Bud to Karl is unfair since Karl was/is a grade A prick who feuds with his own players whereas Bud raised a banner for us. There is no argument that knowing what we know now that it was a mistake firing Bud when we did, Bud brought the culture and stability that this franchise lacks now. You'd have to be crazy to prefer Doc or Griff over Bud, the dumpster fire in Phoenix or a preference for a different hire doesn't change that fact.

It's convenient to dismiss the Suns team as a dumpster fire in order to dismiss any responsibility from Bud.

The Suns weren't a dumpster fire last year with the same team. The main change was firing Frank Vogel and replacing him with Bud.

Bud took a good team and ruined "the culture" and their record. That's hard to do as a coach. The Suns should be much better. Not championship talent, but their record without Bud speaks for itself. And it shouldn't be a surprise.

And that doesn't mean Doc is a good coach. That's a separate discussion.

[blazza18]

If the Bucks win tonight, they'll be 9-4 without Dame. If that happens, it's probably time for some to rethink their opinions of Doc and Dame.

C’mon man I’ve just checked who they’ve played in those games and it’s not impressive at all. These agendas are out of control.

[Ron Swanson]

Imagine hating Dame so much that it turns you into a Doc apologist.

[ShootingtheJ]

If the Bucks win tonight, they'll be 9-4 without Dame. If that happens, it's probably time for some to rethink their opinions of Doc and Dame.

C’mon man I’ve just checked who they’ve played in those games and it’s not impressive at all. These agendas are out of control.

9 of the 12 are playoff teams, and the list includes the 2 #1 seeds. That's tougher than our schedule with him.

[drew881]

If the Bucks win tonight, they'll be 9-4 without Dame. If that happens, it's probably time for some to rethink their opinions of Doc and Dame.

I’m all for it if we can get talent back. But if we do, I think it will be a huge indictment on Giannis if he can’t play with that guy too.