The SGA experience

[ITYSL]

Don't cherrypick the data to drives. Drives are not the only play that should be looked at in terms of whether a player should or should not get free throws.

Of the top 25 players in VORP, the only ones who have a higher FTr are bigs and James Harden, another foul merchant.

Dude plays the system and the refs well. Embrace the villainy instead of denying it.

So your position is no correlation between drives and free throw attempts?

No. Try reading what I said instead of what you want me to have said.

Here's the thing, though, if you want to talk about correlations. The correlation coefficient between drives and FTAs on those drives this season is 0.57. That is a low to moderately meaningful correlation.

Higher correlation coefficients to drives this season: FGAs, passes, assists, turnovers and, believe it or not, personal fouls. What that means is that on average this season, if a player drives the ball, they are more likely to commit a foul, pass it, shoot it or turn it over than they are to shoot free throws. So while there is a correlation there, it's not nearly as meaningful as Shai apologists want to pretend it is when crowing about how much Shai drives it.

[og15]

Don't cherrypick the data to drives. Drives are not the only play that should be looked at in terms of whether a player should or should not get free throws.

Of the top 25 players in VORP, the only ones who have a higher FTr are bigs and James Harden, another foul merchant.

Dude plays the system and the refs well. Embrace the villainy instead of denying it.

So your position is no correlation between drives and free throw attempts?

No. Try reading what I said instead of what you want me to have said.

Here's the thing, though, if you want to talk about correlations. The correlation coefficient between drives and FTAs on those drives this season is 0.57. That is a low to moderately meaningful correlation.

Higher correlation coefficients to drives this season: FGAs, passes, assists, turnovers and, believe it or not, personal fouls. What that means is that on average this season, if a player drives the ball, they are more likely to commit a foul, pass it, shoot it or turn it over than they are to shoot free throws. So while there is a correlation there, it's not nearly as meaningful as Shai apologists want to pretend it is when crowing about how much Shai drives it.

I don't think this is a good way to look at it. FTA's are technically not that common regardless. What you would need to do is compare how often FTA's happen on drives compared to other scoring plays.

You can't say, "FTA are rare on drives in comparison to the 6 other things a player can do, therefore drives have minimal correlation",

That's not really a good argument, and it doesn't help much without examining how often FTA are acquired on other types of plays.

[kazyv]

I still don't get the outrage. SGA is legitimately the more skilled at this stuff than a lot of other players. Watch Tatum when he actually pushes off and extends his arm vs SGA who uses his and his defenders movement and momentum to be able to push off without extending his arm. There's levels to this and clearly the next MVP has got some things figured out

[ITYSL]

So your position is no correlation between drives and free throw attempts?

No. Try reading what I said instead of what you want me to have said.

Here's the thing, though, if you want to talk about correlations. The correlation coefficient between drives and FTAs on those drives this season is 0.57. That is a low to moderately meaningful correlation.

Higher correlation coefficients to drives this season: FGAs, passes, assists, turnovers and, believe it or not, personal fouls. What that means is that on average this season, if a player drives the ball, they are more likely to commit a foul, pass it, shoot it or turn it over than they are to shoot free throws. So while there is a correlation there, it's not nearly as meaningful as Shai apologists want to pretend it is when crowing about how much Shai drives it.

I don't think this is a good way to look at it. FTA's are technically not that common regardless. What you would need to do is compare how often FTA's happen on drives compared to other scoring plays.

You can't say, "FTA are rare on drives in comparison to the 6 other things a player can do, therefore drives have minimal correlation",

That's not really a good argument, and it doesn't help much without examining how often FTA are acquired on other types of plays.

Partially agree. Me comparing the correlation coefficient to other potential actions out of drives was a faulty comparison. I agree with that 100%

But the argument from SGA fans essentially boils down to - if you drive more, you will get more FTAs. Therefore, SGA gets a lot of FTAs because he drives so much. But the numbers don't really show that. There is only a low to moderate correlation between how many drives a team has and how many FTAs they shoot from those drives.

[slick_watts]

But the argument from SGA fans essentially boils down to - if you drive more, you will get more FTAs. Therefore, SGA gets a lot of FTAs because he drives so much. But the numbers don't really show that. There is only a low to moderate correlation between how many drives a team has and how many FTAs they shoot from those drives.

this isn't my argument. i don't think drive volume (from nba.com) and fta are historically correlated.

my argument is that shai gets fouled at a comparable / lower % of his drives than lots of other players. if shai had a favorable whistle, as some are suggesting, you'd expect him to be in the 10%+ upper echelon on this. but he's not.

fga out of drives account for 45% of shai's total fga and 43% of his fta so this is like half his scoring volume accounted for where we can show that he is not getting fouls at a similar rate as other stars do / have.

[Chanel Bomber]

It's not even the fouls for me, I just don't find him enjoyable or compelling to watch.

He's highly skilled obviously, but the flair is missing. There's no spice or character to his game.

[CobraCommander]

SGA leads the league in drives at 23.3 per game. Luka drives 30 percent less at 17.8 drives per game.

SGA attempts 8.7 FTs per game.
Luka attempts 8.7 FTs per game.

SGA has never in any season had more FT attempts than Luka.

So 23 drives to the hole and he gets fouled 4-5 times so maybe once every 4 or 5 drives. I guess if he was fouled one single time less a game he'd average like 6.7 FT attempts and everyone would be happy.

When people compare SGA to Luka they see Luka gets more calls per drive than SGA and then they change the argument - and the crazy thing is sga rarely complains and gets this many calls-

[ITYSL]

But the argument from SGA fans essentially boils down to - if you drive more, you will get more FTAs. Therefore, SGA gets a lot of FTAs because he drives so much. But the numbers don't really show that. There is only a low to moderate correlation between how many drives a team has and how many FTAs they shoot from those drives.

this isn't my argument. i don't think drive volume (from nba.com) and fta are historically correlated.

my argument is that shai gets fouled at a comparable / lower % of his drives than lots of other players. if shai had a favorable whistle, as some are suggesting, you'd expect him to be in the 10%+ upper echelon on this. but he's not.

fga out of drives account for 45% of shai's total fga and 43% of his fta so this is like half his scoring volume accounted for where we can show that he is not getting fouls at a similar rate as other stars do / have.

Yes I understand. My point is that his FTr is one of the highest in the league among marquee non-bigs. So it's silly to just look at FTr on drives. He gets to the line a lot, and he sells those fouls ridiculously hard at times.

Love Shai but don't like that part of his game.

[slick_watts]

But the argument from SGA fans essentially boils down to - if you drive more, you will get more FTAs. Therefore, SGA gets a lot of FTAs because he drives so much. But the numbers don't really show that. There is only a low to moderate correlation between how many drives a team has and how many FTAs they shoot from those drives.

this isn't my argument. i don't think drive volume (from nba.com) and fta are historically correlated.

my argument is that shai gets fouled at a comparable / lower % of his drives than lots of other players. if shai had a favorable whistle, as some are suggesting, you'd expect him to be in the 10%+ upper echelon on this. but he's not.

fga out of drives account for 45% of shai's total fga and 43% of his fta so this is like half his scoring volume accounted for where we can show that he is not getting fouls at a similar rate as other stars do / have.

Yes I understand. My point is that his FTr is one of the highest in the league among marquee non-bigs. So it's silly to just look at FTr on drives. He gets to the line a lot, and he sells those fouls ridiculously hard at times.

Love Shai but don't like that part of his game.

first, i'm not only looking at FTr on drives. we're looking at personal fouls drawn on drives, which is a lot more encompassing.

yes, his FTr is high, but that isn't an apples to apples comparison like it is with drives. because different players operate in different areas of the court where fouls are more or less likely.

shai and trae young have the same free throw rate. but trae young is attempting 46% of his shots from 3pt range. shai only attempts 26% of his shots from there. shai has an average shot attempt distance a full four feet closer than trae young. so you might say, look their FTr is the same. but that isn't controlling for shot distribution. shai attempts like 25% more shots in the paint than anthony edwards. and guess what, his FTr is proportionally the same when you account for that difference.

when you compare apples to apples, shai isn't much different at drawing fouls than other high usage guards / wings. he's not an outlier. if anything he probably should be getting to the line more.

and miss me with the purity of the game nonsense. shai sells fouls sometimes. who cares. it's such a small percentage of his on-ball possessions-- making this big a fuss over it is completely ridiculous. especially since we can show that shai isn't receiving an inordinate number of free throws / foul calls.

[ITYSL]

this isn't my argument. i don't think drive volume (from nba.com) and fta are historically correlated.

my argument is that shai gets fouled at a comparable / lower % of his drives than lots of other players. if shai had a favorable whistle, as some are suggesting, you'd expect him to be in the 10%+ upper echelon on this. but he's not.

fga out of drives account for 45% of shai's total fga and 43% of his fta so this is like half his scoring volume accounted for where we can show that he is not getting fouls at a similar rate as other stars do / have.

Yes I understand. My point is that his FTr is one of the highest in the league among marquee non-bigs. So it's silly to just look at FTr on drives. He gets to the line a lot, and he sells those fouls ridiculously hard at times.

Love Shai but don't like that part of his game.

first, i'm not only looking at FTr on drives. we're looking at personal fouls drawn on drives, which is a lot more encompassing.

yes, his FTr is high, but that isn't an apples to apples comparison like it is with drives. because different players operate in different areas of the court where fouls are more or less likely.

shai and trae young have the same free throw rate. but trae young is attempting 46% of his shots from 3pt range. shai only attempts 26% of his shots from there. shai has an average shot attempt distance a full four feet closer than trae young. so you might say, look their FTr is the same. but that isn't controlling for shot distribution. shai attempts like 25% more shots in the paint than anthony edwards. and guess what, his FTr is proportionally the same when you account for that difference.

when you compare apples to apples, shai isn't much different at drawing fouls than other high usage guards / wings. he's not an outlier. if anything he probably should be getting to the line more.

and miss me with the purity of the game nonsense. shai sells fouls sometimes. who cares. it's such a small percentage of his on-ball possessions-- making this big a fuss over it is completely ridiculous. especially since we can show that shai isn't receiving an inordinate number of free throws / foul calls.

I don't see that much of a difference in shot diet from someone who takes a lot of jumpshots from midrange (Shai) vs. someone who takes a lot of jumpshots from 3 (Trae). They're both dribble-heavy guards whose possessions often end in a jumpshot.

I don't like when Trae baits for fouls, either. Or Brunson, to name another. If Shai was on my team, I'd probably not be as annoyed with his foul baiting either (although Marcus Smart's baiting always annoyed the heck out of me).

It's obvious to everyone who watches that Shai is a foul merchant, that he often baits hard for them. And it's not appealing to watch. I still respect him as a player but I'm not going to worship at the altar of SGA like some diehard fans might. It's all good. Agree to disagree.

[Karate Diop]

People jump through a lot of hurdles to try and justify the Shai whistle, but if you actually watch the games it's criminal how much he gets away with... League is legit trying to manufacture a superstar...

[GeorgeMarcus]

People jump through a lot of hurdles to try and justify the Shai whistle, but if you actually watch the games it's criminal how much he gets away with... League is legit trying to manufacture a superstar...

Bruh whenever I see your name pop up in a thread there's a 99.7% chance you're hating on someone or something. Doesn't it get old?

[GeorgeMarcus]

You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain... It happened unusually fast to SGA, for guy who has done a good job of staying under the radar

[durden_tyler]

If teams can force him to take those 3's and long jumpers, obviously the defensive team has more shot. i think he's one of the guys you send the double to everytime he penetrates maybe that solves half the problem.

[Karate Diop]

People jump through a lot of hurdles to try and justify the Shai whistle, but if you actually watch the games it's criminal how much he gets away with... League is legit trying to manufacture a superstar...

Bruh whenever I see your name pop up in a thread there's a 99.7% chance you're hating on someone or something. Doesn't it get old?

There's plenty of players I like, and I don't even dislike Shai in that in-between the foul baiting he can be fun to watch, but sometimes you've got to call a spade a spade...

People killed Trae Young for abusing the rules, but want to give Shai a free pass for the same? Come on...

[GeorgeMarcus]

People jump through a lot of hurdles to try and justify the Shai whistle, but if you actually watch the games it's criminal how much he gets away with... League is legit trying to manufacture a superstar...

Bruh whenever I see your name pop up in a thread there's a 99.7% chance you're hating on someone or something. Doesn't it get old?

There's plenty of players I like, and I don't even dislike Shai in that in-between the foul baiting he can be fun to watch, but sometimes you've got to call a spade a spade...

People killed Trae Young for abusing the rules, but want to give Shai a free pass for the same? Come on...

Dating back to Harden, I've never blamed a player for foul baiting. I consider drawing fouls a skill and, if they aren't actually fouls, it's on the refs to get it right. In that sense I don't think Trae or Shai deserve it but I guess to your point, if one is getting crap then the other should too as a matter of consistency.

[Jazz9]

SGA seeks out contact while certain other players flop. Does seem like he gets a friendly whistle though.

Friendly whistle is an understatement...

Read on Twitter

He's got that ragdoll animation on point

[slick_watts]

I don't see that much of a difference in shot diet from someone who takes a lot of jumpshots from midrange (Shai) vs. someone who takes a lot of jumpshots from 3 (Trae). They're both dribble-heavy guards whose possessions often end in a jumpshot.

you don't have to see the difference, the facts are the closer you get to the rim, the higher the probability you get a foul. that applies to any shot attempt. especially when you get to the 10-15 foot range where shai is attempting far more jump shots than anyone else. here's just a random examination from 2021/2022 that was looking at the 3pt foul shot rule changes. look at the foul density increase as the ball moves into the 15 feet range.



(also note that many of the shooting fouls outside the 3pt line are take fouls to end games).

so again, shai's shot attempts are much closer to the rim than trae young. but they have the same FTr. shai's shot profile would suggest his should be higher. it isn't. and that's because shai does not receive preferential treatment.

I don't like when Trae baits for fouls, either. Or Brunson, to name another. If Shai was on my team, I'd probably not be as annoyed with his foul baiting either (although Marcus Smart's baiting always annoyed the heck out of me).

i couldn't care less about foul baiting. drawing fouls is part of the game and has been for decades. if that's a problem for you or others aesthetically that's not my problem and i'm not interested in debating that. i'm interested in the false narrative that shai receives preferential whistle when there has been no evidence presented supporting that case.

It's obvious to everyone who watches that Shai is a foul merchant, that he often baits hard for them.

if it's so obvious why is it so difficult for you or anyone to produce any objective evidence that he is doing this? why is his DrawF rate on drives lower than his contemporaries if he's such an unforgivably blatant foul baiter? why is his free throw rate the same as other wings or guards who spend nowhere near as much time closer to the rim as he does? why hasn't anyone who has done exhaustive analysis of shai's game come away with the same conclusion as the haters, who only seem to be able to produce isolated clips of these occurrences outside of the context of shai's entire repertoire?

here is your answer: it's because this is a hate narrative composed to generate engagement on social media.

[Special_Puppy]

Just like Harden and Embiid its a combination of ATG scoring AND embellishment

[Lakers In 5]

FTA is Harden and Embiid without the PR. It is just unwatchable.