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720 wrote:tsherkin wrote:720 wrote:
And that's supposed to be a good thing? That's what raw shooting volume will do for a player.
He doesn’t force it at all. He lets the game come to him. He isn’t a typical chucker on a bad team type.
Scizzup wrote:I am not as worried about him rn. Scottie is worth the 25% max especially with little improvements here and there. That is typically for top 35-40 ish players in the league and I think he can be that.
However, his offensive limitations is obvious or should be by now. He is never going to be the head of an elite offense imo. Its just not his scoring, Magic and Nash were not volume scorers but they were great/efficient self creators and top 5 passers ever. They also were volume drivers required for a elite point guard play. Scottie isn't that.
I have considered him an Iggy/Marion hybrid player for a long time and that is a very good player. Iggy and Marion were all nba level impact for a couple seasons (just didn't have raw boxscore stat in Iggy case). Hopefully, he keeps getting better on defense mostly in terms of IQ and reading actions cause a lot of his value will come from that and not offense.
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:I am not as worried about him rn. Scottie is worth the 25% max especially with little improvements here and there. That is typically for top 35-40 ish players in the league and I think he can be that.
However, his offensive limitations is obvious or should be by now. He is never going to be the head of an elite offense imo. Its just not his scoring, Magic and Nash were not volume scorers but they were great/efficient self creators and top 5 passers ever. They also were volume drivers required for a elite point guard play. Scottie isn't that.
I have considered him an Iggy/Marion hybrid player for a long time and that is a very good player. Iggy and Marion were all nba level impact for a couple seasons (just didn't have raw boxscore stat in Iggy case). Hopefully, he keeps getting better on defense mostly in terms of IQ and reading actions cause a lot of his value will come from that and not offense.
Is Barnes better than Anunoby?
I personally think Anunoby is better than Barnes, even Anunoby has glaring weakness in handling the ball and finishing, but I am not seeing Barnes putting them altogether to be effective (below average in every offensive category), while not an elite defender like Anunoby.
Barnes will be paid more than Anunoby next year, and people here (including me) think Anunoby is overpaid?
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:I am not as worried about him rn. Scottie is worth the 25% max especially with little improvements here and there. That is typically for top 35-40 ish players in the league and I think he can be that.
However, his offensive limitations is obvious or should be by now. He is never going to be the head of an elite offense imo. Its just not his scoring, Magic and Nash were not volume scorers but they were great/efficient self creators and top 5 passers ever. They also were volume drivers required for a elite point guard play. Scottie isn't that.
I have considered him an Iggy/Marion hybrid player for a long time and that is a very good player. Iggy and Marion were all nba level impact for a couple seasons (just didn't have raw boxscore stat in Iggy case). Hopefully, he keeps getting better on defense mostly in terms of IQ and reading actions cause a lot of his value will come from that and not offense.
Is Barnes better than Anunoby?
I personally think Anunoby is better than Barnes, even Anunoby has glaring weakness in handling the ball and finishing, but I am not seeing Barnes putting them altogether to be effective (below average in every offensive category), while not an elite defender like Anunoby.
Barnes will be paid more than Anunoby next year, and people here (including me) think Anunoby is overpaid?
Naysorn wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:I am not as worried about him rn. Scottie is worth the 25% max especially with little improvements here and there. That is typically for top 35-40 ish players in the league and I think he can be that.
However, his offensive limitations is obvious or should be by now. He is never going to be the head of an elite offense imo. Its just not his scoring, Magic and Nash were not volume scorers but they were great/efficient self creators and top 5 passers ever. They also were volume drivers required for a elite point guard play. Scottie isn't that.
I have considered him an Iggy/Marion hybrid player for a long time and that is a very good player. Iggy and Marion were all nba level impact for a couple seasons (just didn't have raw boxscore stat in Iggy case). Hopefully, he keeps getting better on defense mostly in terms of IQ and reading actions cause a lot of his value will come from that and not offense.
Is Barnes better than Anunoby?
I personally think Anunoby is better than Barnes, even Anunoby has glaring weakness in handling the ball and finishing, but I am not seeing Barnes putting them altogether to be effective (below average in every offensive category), while not an elite defender like Anunoby.
Barnes will be paid more than Anunoby next year, and people here (including me) think Anunoby is overpaid?
lol
scottie has made an all star team.
hes way more well rounded than og. og cant pass or score like him in the mid-range.
scotties closing the gap as a defender.
og is a way better shooter tho ill give u that
Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:I am not as worried about him rn. Scottie is worth the 25% max especially with little improvements here and there. That is typically for top 35-40 ish players in the league and I think he can be that.
However, his offensive limitations is obvious or should be by now. He is never going to be the head of an elite offense imo. Its just not his scoring, Magic and Nash were not volume scorers but they were great/efficient self creators and top 5 passers ever. They also were volume drivers required for a elite point guard play. Scottie isn't that.
I have considered him an Iggy/Marion hybrid player for a long time and that is a very good player. Iggy and Marion were all nba level impact for a couple seasons (just didn't have raw boxscore stat in Iggy case). Hopefully, he keeps getting better on defense mostly in terms of IQ and reading actions cause a lot of his value will come from that and not offense.
Is Barnes better than Anunoby?
I personally think Anunoby is better than Barnes, even Anunoby has glaring weakness in handling the ball and finishing, but I am not seeing Barnes putting them altogether to be effective (below average in every offensive category), while not an elite defender like Anunoby.
Barnes will be paid more than Anunoby next year, and people here (including me) think Anunoby is overpaid?
Yes, he is better than OG, I think you are underrating him a bit. OG cannot do much on offense but shoot 3's, low IQ on offense and his defense while elite isn't groundbreaking cause he is not that strong as an off ball defender.
Barnes will be paid 25% of the cap for one year and it decreases yearly after that, he is absolutely worth that. That is basically a top 30-40 player which I think he is close to now. And will be one next few years playing next to better players. I am doubtful of him ever being a legit star or a top 20 player, that is all. I would have been worried if he got the 30% max.
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:
Is Barnes better than Anunoby?
I personally think Anunoby is better than Barnes, even Anunoby has glaring weakness in handling the ball and finishing, but I am not seeing Barnes putting them altogether to be effective (below average in every offensive category), while not an elite defender like Anunoby.
Barnes will be paid more than Anunoby next year, and people here (including me) think Anunoby is overpaid?
Yes, he is better than OG, I think you are underrating him a bit. OG cannot do much on offense but shoot 3's, low IQ on offense and his defense while elite isn't groundbreaking cause he is not that strong as an off ball defender.
Barnes will be paid 25% of the cap for one year and it decreases yearly after that, he is absolutely worth that. That is basically a top 30-40 player which I think he is close to now. And will be one next few years playing next to better players. I am doubtful of him ever being a legit star or a top 20 player, that is all. I would have been worried if he got the 30% max.
Anunoby isn't that low IQ on offense, and his passing was underrated, he make pretty good connectivity pass when he is near the rim (probably people forgot).
As for Barnes being bottom in the league on offense is top 20 player? That is just overrating him. What exactly is him being good at to worth being top 20 player? He is pretty much 3rd on our team at most, which it is even debatable.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2432092&start=780#p117566599
Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:
Yes, he is better than OG, I think you are underrating him a bit. OG cannot do much on offense but shoot 3's, low IQ on offense and his defense while elite isn't groundbreaking cause he is not that strong as an off ball defender.
Barnes will be paid 25% of the cap for one year and it decreases yearly after that, he is absolutely worth that. That is basically a top 30-40 player which I think he is close to now. And will be one next few years playing next to better players. I am doubtful of him ever being a legit star or a top 20 player, that is all. I would have been worried if he got the 30% max.
Anunoby isn't that low IQ on offense, and his passing was underrated, he make pretty good connectivity pass when he is near the rim (probably people forgot).
As for Barnes being bottom in the league on offense is top 20 player? That is just overrating him. What exactly is him being good at to worth being top 20 player? He is pretty much 3rd on our team at most, which it is even debatable.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2432092&start=780#p117566599
I said I don't think Barnes will be a top 20 player or a legit star. But he doesn't have to be a top 20 player to be worth a 22% of the cap space . he is having a down season compared to last year and still more impactful than OG on most metrics despite being on a worse team and not being optimized. Players like Barnes look better with better roster construction, he is not a offensive star.
If you read my initial comment, I mentioned he is never going to be the cog of an elite offense and I stated his weakness. I am still telling you, yes he is worth the 25% max lol. The players that get 25% max ain't all that. His contract starts next year so lets give him that.
Edit; cade looks a lot better this year cause the roster around him is better. he also got better individually but you get the point.
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:
Anunoby isn't that low IQ on offense, and his passing was underrated, he make pretty good connectivity pass when he is near the rim (probably people forgot).
As for Barnes being bottom in the league on offense is top 20 player? That is just overrating him. What exactly is him being good at to worth being top 20 player? He is pretty much 3rd on our team at most, which it is even debatable.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2432092&start=780#p117566599
I said I don't think Barnes will be a top 20 player or a legit star. But he doesn't have to be a top 20 player to be worth a 22% of the cap space . he is having a down season compared to last year and still more impactful than OG on most metrics despite being on a worse team and not being optimized. Players like Barnes look better with better roster construction, he is not a offensive star.
If you read my initial comment, I mentioned he is never going to be the cog of an elite offense and I stated his weakness. I am still telling you, yes he is worth the 25% max lol. The players that get 25% max ain't all that. His contract starts next year so lets give him that.
Edit; cade looks a lot better this year cause the roster around him is better. he also got better individually but you get the point.
We are pretty much over the tax next year. Unless you believe we are a contending team, otherwise, we are overpaid on multiple players.
And now, you are claiming that the roster around him is not good, much like people above blaming management instead Barnes improving. What exactly did Barnes improved? An inefficient mid-range (10-16), while regressed long range (16-3P)? Bottom 20th offense (the previous link) worth 22% of cap space? I am just not sure. I will need more evidence to convince me he is more than a starting PF that worth near max.
Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:
I said I don't think Barnes will be a top 20 player or a legit star. But he doesn't have to be a top 20 player to be worth a 22% of the cap space . he is having a down season compared to last year and still more impactful than OG on most metrics despite being on a worse team and not being optimized. Players like Barnes look better with better roster construction, he is not a offensive star.
If you read my initial comment, I mentioned he is never going to be the cog of an elite offense and I stated his weakness. I am still telling you, yes he is worth the 25% max lol. The players that get 25% max ain't all that. His contract starts next year so lets give him that.
Edit; cade looks a lot better this year cause the roster around him is better. he also got better individually but you get the point.
We are pretty much over the tax next year. Unless you believe we are a contending team, otherwise, we are overpaid on multiple players.
And now, you are claiming that the roster around him is not good, much like people above blaming management instead Barnes improving. What exactly did Barnes improved? An inefficient mid-range (10-16), while regressed long range (16-3P)? Bottom 20th offense (the previous link) worth 22% of cap space? I am just not sure. I will need more evidence to convince me he is more than a starting PF that worth near max.
if FO cannot function with Barnes making 23% of the cap then they should all be fired. Like that is what your 3rd best player make from certain teams. What he improved on? well he is self creating better, the result isn't all there yet. He is also playing decent defense. The hope is next year he puts more together playing with better players.
You seem to be comparing him to other max players (who make a lot more than him). if he comes back next year putting 20/8/6 on 57% TS playing of IQ/Ingram and good defense I am fine with it. He is being overtaxed right now. I know the type of player he is so I wasn't expecting what you were.
You also have to realize this contract is over 5 years, he will absolutely be worth it over the length of his contract cause he will be taking up 22% of the cap at the end about same as Ibaka got in 2017 btw.
Edit: Last season Barnes was up to about .58 TS with Siakam. Ingram is as good as Siakam on offense if not better when he is healthy, add IQ to that and Barnes should at the very least be up to 56% TS
Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:
I said I don't think Barnes will be a top 20 player or a legit star. But he doesn't have to be a top 20 player to be worth a 22% of the cap space . he is having a down season compared to last year and still more impactful than OG on most metrics despite being on a worse team and not being optimized. Players like Barnes look better with better roster construction, he is not a offensive star.
If you read my initial comment, I mentioned he is never going to be the cog of an elite offense and I stated his weakness. I am still telling you, yes he is worth the 25% max lol. The players that get 25% max ain't all that. His contract starts next year so lets give him that.
Edit; cade looks a lot better this year cause the roster around him is better. he also got better individually but you get the point.
We are pretty much over the tax next year. Unless you believe we are a contending team, otherwise, we are overpaid on multiple players.
And now, you are claiming that the roster around him is not good, much like people above blaming management instead Barnes improving. What exactly did Barnes improved? An inefficient mid-range (10-16), while regressed long range (16-3P)? Bottom 20th offense (the previous link) worth 22% of cap space? I am just not sure. I will need more evidence to convince me he is more than a starting PF that worth near max.
if FO cannot function with Barnes making 23% of the cap then they should all be fired. Like that is what your 3rd best player make from certain teams. What he improved on? well he is self creating better, the result isn't all there yet. He is also playing decent defense. The hope is next year he puts more together playing with better players.
You seem to be comparing him to other max players (who make a lot more than him). if he comes back next year putting 20/8/6 on 57% TS playing of IQ/Ingram and good defense I am fine with it. He is being overtaxed right now. I know the type of player he is so I wasn't expecting what you were.
You also have to realize this contract is over 5 years, he will absolutely be worth it over the length of his contract cause he will be taking up 22% of the cap at the end about same as Ibaka got in 2017 btw.
Edit: Last season Barnes was up to about .58 TS with Siakam. Ingram is as good as Siakam on offense if not better when he is healthy, add IQ to that and Barnes should at the very least be up to 56% TS
PushDaRock wrote:Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:
We are pretty much over the tax next year. Unless you believe we are a contending team, otherwise, we are overpaid on multiple players.
And now, you are claiming that the roster around him is not good, much like people above blaming management instead Barnes improving. What exactly did Barnes improved? An inefficient mid-range (10-16), while regressed long range (16-3P)? Bottom 20th offense (the previous link) worth 22% of cap space? I am just not sure. I will need more evidence to convince me he is more than a starting PF that worth near max.
if FO cannot function with Barnes making 23% of the cap then they should all be fired. Like that is what your 3rd best player make from certain teams. What he improved on? well he is self creating better, the result isn't all there yet. He is also playing decent defense. The hope is next year he puts more together playing with better players.
You seem to be comparing him to other max players (who make a lot more than him). if he comes back next year putting 20/8/6 on 57% TS playing of IQ/Ingram and good defense I am fine with it. He is being overtaxed right now. I know the type of player he is so I wasn't expecting what you were.
You also have to realize this contract is over 5 years, he will absolutely be worth it over the length of his contract cause he will be taking up 22% of the cap at the end about same as Ibaka got in 2017 btw.
Edit: Last season Barnes was up to about .58 TS with Siakam. Ingram is as good as Siakam on offense if not better when he is healthy, add IQ to that and Barnes should at the very least be up to 56% TS
If he's putting up 20/8/6 on 57 TS%, not that many people will be complaining. The question is can he even do that? Last year's numbers seem to be propped up by a 2 month hot streak from 3 where he was making close to 2.5 threes a game at close to 40%. That's looking more and more like a fluke. I would suspect he needs to be scoring 14-16 ppg with a shot diet heavy on layups, dunks and FT's to get to league average efficiency.
Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:Scizzup wrote:
if FO cannot function with Barnes making 23% of the cap then they should all be fired. Like that is what your 3rd best player make from certain teams. What he improved on? well he is self creating better, the result isn't all there yet. He is also playing decent defense. The hope is next year he puts more together playing with better players.
You seem to be comparing him to other max players (who make a lot more than him). if he comes back next year putting 20/8/6 on 57% TS playing of IQ/Ingram and good defense I am fine with it. He is being overtaxed right now. I know the type of player he is so I wasn't expecting what you were.
You also have to realize this contract is over 5 years, he will absolutely be worth it over the length of his contract cause he will be taking up 22% of the cap at the end about same as Ibaka got in 2017 btw.
Edit: Last season Barnes was up to about .58 TS with Siakam. Ingram is as good as Siakam on offense if not better when he is healthy, add IQ to that and Barnes should at the very least be up to 56% TS
If he's putting up 20/8/6 on 57 TS%, not that many people will be complaining. The question is can he even do that? Last year's numbers seem to be propped up by a 2 month hot streak from 3 where he was making close to 2.5 threes a game at close to 40%. That's looking more and more like a fluke. I would suspect he needs to be scoring 14-16 ppg with a shot diet heavy on layups, dunks and FT's to get to league average efficiency.
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:Scizzup wrote:
if FO cannot function with Barnes making 23% of the cap then they should all be fired. Like that is what your 3rd best player make from certain teams. What he improved on? well he is self creating better, the result isn't all there yet. He is also playing decent defense. The hope is next year he puts more together playing with better players.
You seem to be comparing him to other max players (who make a lot more than him). if he comes back next year putting 20/8/6 on 57% TS playing of IQ/Ingram and good defense I am fine with it. He is being overtaxed right now. I know the type of player he is so I wasn't expecting what you were.
You also have to realize this contract is over 5 years, he will absolutely be worth it over the length of his contract cause he will be taking up 22% of the cap at the end about same as Ibaka got in 2017 btw.
Edit: Last season Barnes was up to about .58 TS with Siakam. Ingram is as good as Siakam on offense if not better when he is healthy, add IQ to that and Barnes should at the very least be up to 56% TS
If he's putting up 20/8/6 on 57 TS%, not that many people will be complaining. The question is can he even do that? Last year's numbers seem to be propped up by a 2 month hot streak from 3 where he was making close to 2.5 threes a game at close to 40%. That's looking more and more like a fluke. I would suspect he needs to be scoring 14-16 ppg with a shot diet heavy on layups, dunks and FT's to get to league average efficiency.
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:
If he's putting up 20/8/6 on 57 TS%, not that many people will be complaining. The question is can he even do that? Last year's numbers seem to be propped up by a 2 month hot streak from 3 where he was making close to 2.5 threes a game at close to 40%. That's looking more and more like a fluke. I would suspect he needs to be scoring 14-16 ppg with a shot diet heavy on layups, dunks and FT's to get to league average efficiency.
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
56% TS is below league average. Unless you are creating or massively impacting on the defensive end, which I don't see it. Again, you will need to convince me how he is able to, as he is getting near max, and we are probably being a tax team.
PushDaRock wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
56% TS is below league average. Unless you are creating or massively impacting on the defensive end, which I don't see it. Again, you will need to convince me how he is able to, as he is getting near max, and we are probably being a tax team.
He's not getting the Super Max but I still feel like our expectations for him offensively for getting paid that contract should be a bit higher than 3rd/4th scorer on a decent team. He's trending towards being the worst offensive player to be on a Max contract next season.
PushDaRock wrote:Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:
If he's putting up 20/8/6 on 57 TS%, not that many people will be complaining. The question is can he even do that? Last year's numbers seem to be propped up by a 2 month hot streak from 3 where he was making close to 2.5 threes a game at close to 40%. That's looking more and more like a fluke. I would suspect he needs to be scoring 14-16 ppg with a shot diet heavy on layups, dunks and FT's to get to league average efficiency.
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
I just don't really see how he's scoring 20 a game in that sort of role and is someone that puts up 56 TS% getting spoon fed baskets really all that useful as an offensive player? I feel like we are setting a very low bar here for him to clear here.
Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:Scizzup wrote:
I think he can do that next to better players, now he might not do it next year but I think he can definitely get there by year 2 of his contract. So, I think he should play more as a screener/transition and cutter with BI/IQ on the court. He is a decent ft shooter so that helps. If he can't put up atleast 56% TS being assisted more in the paint area (hopefully) then yea we should question him. He is not a good self creator he should be more of a play finisher then he has been this year.
I just don't really see how he's scoring 20 a game in that sort of role and is someone that puts up 56 TS% getting spoon fed baskets really all that useful as an offensive player? I feel like we are setting a very low bar here for him to clear here.
Siakam is getting spoon fed, do you think he is not a good offensive player? Now, I don't think Barnes is as good of a scorer as him obviously. But if Barnes was getting assisted in the paint like Siakam I find it hard for him not to be a 57% TS scorer. ofc no one is as good as hali on the team so its hard but players like Siakam/Barnes need to be more playfinisher then creators on offense (Shawn Marion). Siakam suffered same here with that.
Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:PushDaRock wrote:
I just don't really see how he's scoring 20 a game in that sort of role and is someone that puts up 56 TS% getting spoon fed baskets really all that useful as an offensive player? I feel like we are setting a very low bar here for him to clear here.
Siakam is getting spoon fed, do you think he is not a good offensive player? Now, I don't think Barnes is as good of a scorer as him obviously. But if Barnes was getting assisted in the paint like Siakam I find it hard for him not to be a 57% TS scorer. ofc no one is as good as hali on the team so its hard but players like Siakam/Barnes need to be more playfinisher then creators on offense (Shawn Marion). Siakam suffered same here with that.
Siakam created his own shot, and has been shooting 60% TS consistently being the 1st option in Toronto and 2nd option in Indiana. This year he is shooting 40% from 3, more than half of them are from the top. Barnes is below average TS, unless he can shoot the 3 to make up for his efficiency or go to the line.
Scizzup wrote:Indeed wrote:Scizzup wrote:
Siakam is getting spoon fed, do you think he is not a good offensive player? Now, I don't think Barnes is as good of a scorer as him obviously. But if Barnes was getting assisted in the paint like Siakam I find it hard for him not to be a 57% TS scorer. ofc no one is as good as hali on the team so its hard but players like Siakam/Barnes need to be more playfinisher then creators on offense (Shawn Marion). Siakam suffered same here with that.
Siakam created his own shot, and has been shooting 60% TS consistently being the 1st option in Toronto and 2nd option in Indiana. This year he is shooting 40% from 3, more than half of them are from the top. Barnes is below average TS, unless he can shoot the 3 to make up for his efficiency or go to the line.
You are wrong, Siakam when he created like an elite wing was constantly at 56% TS. This last 2 season has been the highest he been assisted in the paint since the Kawhi season and he has put up 60% TS both years.