LaMelephant: The LaMelo Ball Thread (#2)

[yosemiteben]

Gotcha, sorry, then yeah we're on the same page.

[JMAC3]

Gotcha, sorry, then yeah we're on the same page.

Until the team makes a concerted effort to add talent to the roster we will continue to be one of the worst teams in the league.
Yeah, we can add Flagg to the team even and we are probably still not a playoff team, we need to actually be aggressive and put some skin in the game.
I promise if we start making some semi-risky win now moves the vibes from the front office, coaching staff and players will be different.

I mean just use common sense, how invested in winning are the players going to be when the team clearly doesn't care about winning top to bottom.

The Mark failed trade was the biggest of them all. Trading a starter for a meh rookie and a bunch of picks screams winning doesn't matter. Regardless of whether Mark has injury concerns, watch us play any given night and you can tell how much of a factor Mark is to when this team plays well.

Same with PJ and Rozier trades, to the cap and draft nerds yes we won the trades, but to the players we got worse and nobody wants to play for a team actively trying to get worse.

[yosemiteben]

Gotcha, sorry, then yeah we're on the same page.

Until the team makes a concerted effort to add talent to the roster we will continue to be one of the worst teams in the league.

Yes, I think we are all aware that we are not in the phase where we are moving draft capital to add talent - quite the opposite.

FWIW, it does feel slightly unfair to me to harshly judge the overall talent level of the team when many of our most talented players have been out with injury. I say that just to add the caveat that, if healthy, our roster is substantially more talented than what we are seeing on a night to night basis right now.

I mean just use common sense, how invested in winning are the players going to be when the team clearly doesn't care about winning top to bottom.

The Mark failed trade was the biggest of them all. Trading a starter for a meh rookie and a bunch of picks screams winning doesn't matter. Regardless of whether Mark has injury concerns, watch us play any given night and you can tell how much of a factor Mark is to when this team plays well.

Same with PJ and Rozier trades, to the cap and draft nerds yes we won the trades, but to the players we got worse and nobody wants to play for a team actively trying to get worse.

I'm not sure whether you think yours is a controversial take, but yeah we're not trying to win right now and the moves we are making and the goals the FO and ownership have set make that very clear. It doesn't seem to me that anyone disagrees with that.

[JMAC3]

Gotcha, sorry, then yeah we're on the same page.

Until the team makes a concerted effort to add talent to the roster we will continue to be one of the worst teams in the league.

Yes, I think we are all aware that we are not in the phase where we are moving draft capital to add talent - quite the opposite.

FWIW, it does feel slightly unfair to me to harshly judge the overall talent level of the team when many of our most talented players have been out with injury. I say that just to add the caveat that, if healthy, our roster is substantially more talented than what we are seeing on a night to night basis right now.

I mean just use common sense, how invested in winning are the players going to be when the team clearly doesn't care about winning top to bottom.

The Mark failed trade was the biggest of them all. Trading a starter for a meh rookie and a bunch of picks screams winning doesn't matter. Regardless of whether Mark has injury concerns, watch us play any given night and you can tell how much of a factor Mark is to when this team plays well.

Same with PJ and Rozier trades, to the cap and draft nerds yes we won the trades, but to the players we got worse and nobody wants to play for a team actively trying to get worse.

I'm not sure whether you think yours is a controversial take, but yeah we're not trying to win right now and the moves we are making and the goals the FO and ownership have set make that very clear. It doesn't seem to me that anyone disagrees with that.

Fats was saying we didn't downgrade our talent at all in those trades, so clearly he disagrees on that.
Which this whole convo was based on.
We downgraded talent, lost more games, but at the same time want to point to LaMelo not being good enough to carry the franchise and that means trade him.

My point is that until we actually try to give LaMelo a full deck of cards I am not willing to trade him for more future picks and extending the rebuild another 2-3 years on top of what it already is going to be.

I do agree most on the board think we are bad and not surprised. Where I think you are alone is that you have accepted that this team just sucks and if it is bad 3 more years you will accept it because that is the direction the front office is taking it. Hell maybe 5 more years, as long as the team is trying to be bad you won't judge them for being bad seems to be the stance you have right now.

[yosemiteben]

Got it, wasn't totally tracking the back and forth but that makes sense.

Ignoring the random comments where you are instructing me as to what my own views are though, could do without that as I'm pretty clued in on what I think and it's apparent that you are not.

[luciano-davidwesley]

lolwut

half the board is still saying "wait till next year" while the team is actively trading away its best players for 2030 picks. if there is clarity to what their plan is, its definitely not clear to most people here

I think it's because people don't want to pay attention to what the FO is saying or doing and are generally looking at things without actually trying to piece together a logical framework that the FO may be using. It's not like they're hiding what they're doing. Since new management came on, we've acquired 4 first round picks and like 8 second round picks.

It is kind of funny that a lot of national guys are complimentary of our FO and their willingness to be proactive and make moves with an eye towards the future, but a lot of folks on here are like "I don't know there's no logical connection between anything that has happened in the last 12 months, the FO has no plan and isn't doing anything."

And to be clear, I'm not saying anyone has to like the moves we made or the plan our FO is executing, but it's pretty obvious that there is one.

who are the national guys that have been complimentary of our FO anytime in say, 2025 or later?
I know Russillo said we are easily in the worst spot in the NBA in Feb, other than that I haven't seen much
https://www.si.com/nba/hornets/news/nba-insider-claims-charlotte-hornets-are-in-a-pretty-bad-spot

currently in our post mortem thread on the GB we are at 85% to replace the GM, of course nobody even knows who our GM is but I don't think anyone is really out there enamored with what this FO has done in year 1. i don't think too many people are impressed by flipping your previous regimes few good draft picks for future picks and mediocre/bad players and drafting scrubs. Thats not exactly progression

Lol Russillo is a **** moron for putting that in writing and who would care what the ignorant posters on the GB think about our team. None of them even watch the team or keep tabs on us so their opinions are irrelevant.

[fatlever]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote individual passages but regarding the depth conversation. Again my point was that our depth this year looks bad compared to last year because of the injuries.

I think most people going into the season would have agreed that our depth was better this year compared to the beginning of last season when the bottom half of the roster was filled with Mitch's projects.

The conversation of depth regarding the shooting guard position held by Terry Rozier, wasn't Terry versus all of the G League 10-day contract scrubs we've been rolling out lately. It would have been the conversation between Terry versus a healthy mann and Josh green. Despite how disappointing Josh green has been this year, I would still argue that I would take a healthy mann and green over the version that the terry from the Heat this year.

Regarding Grant versus PJ, while your fave EPM stats favor pj, look at the plus-minus and on off metrics for the Hornets with Grant on the floor the second half of last year and a few games this year versus when he was off. He was making more of an impact than pretty much anyone on the roster other than Melo. Not to mention that I think it's pretty easy to see that Grant was a leader that this team needed more so than what PJ was providing in that department. Two different types of players that necessarily can't be compared apples to apples. We also got curry in that trade. pure roster depth point of view Grant and Curry is probably equal to what PJ would have given us, in the hypothetical that Grant was healthy.

The entire depth conversation gets thrown out the window when Grant and mann go down for the year which was my entire point.

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[JDR720]

I think our overall depth is better too. Mann replaces Terry pretty well, and Grant does the same for PJ.

The one player type we don't have is a Gordon. An All-Around offensive player with size that keeps things simple, yet effective.

[Liver_Pooty]

I think our overall depth is better too. Mann replaces Terry pretty well, and Grant does the same for PJ.

The one player type we don't have is a Gordon. An All-Around offensive player with size that keeps things simple, yet effective.

Flagg is coming soon friend.

[JustBuzzin]

I think our overall depth is better too. Mann replaces Terry pretty well, and Grant does the same for PJ.

The one player type we don't have is a Gordon. An All-Around offensive player with size that keeps things simple, yet effective.

Flagg is coming soon friend.

And so is the ticket you owe me.

[Liver_Pooty]

I think our overall depth is better too. Mann replaces Terry pretty well, and Grant does the same for PJ.

The one player type we don't have is a Gordon. An All-Around offensive player with size that keeps things simple, yet effective.

Flagg is coming soon friend.

And so is the ticket you owe me.

I’d gladly buy it

[Diop]

Flagg is coming soon friend.

And so is the ticket you owe me.

I’d gladly buy it

if we get Flagg I'll book a flight to Charlotte to join you both!

[Liver_Pooty]

And so is the ticket you owe me.

I’d gladly buy it

if we get Flagg I'll book a flight to Charlotte to join you both!

OOOH ****. Speak it into existence

[luciano-davidwesley]

I think our overall depth is better too. Mann replaces Terry pretty well, and Grant does the same for PJ.

The one player type we don't have is a Gordon. An All-Around offensive player with size that keeps things simple, yet effective.

Whilst not giving any **** and stealing money. So glad that guy is gone

[Walt Cronkite]

RGM Charlotte hoops summit! Don’t ruin this, Adam Silver.

[JMAC3]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote individual passages but regarding the depth conversation. Again my point was that our depth this year looks bad compared to last year because of the injuries.

I think most people going into the season would have agreed that our depth was better this year compared to the beginning of last season when the bottom half of the roster was filled with Mitch's projects.

The conversation of depth regarding the shooting guard position held by Terry Rozier, wasn't Terry versus all of the G League 10-day contract scrubs we've been rolling out lately. It would have been the conversation between Terry versus a healthy mann and Josh green. Despite how disappointing Josh green has been this year, I would still argue that I would take a healthy mann and green over the version that the terry from the Heat this year.

Regarding Grant versus PJ, while your fave EPM stats favor pj, look at the plus-minus and on off metrics for the Hornets with Grant on the floor the second half of last year and a few games this year versus when he was off. He was making more of an impact than pretty much anyone on the roster other than Melo. Not to mention that I think it's pretty easy to see that Grant was a leader that this team needed more so than what PJ was providing in that department. Two different types of players that necessarily can't be compared apples to apples. We also got curry in that trade. pure roster depth point of view Grant and Curry is probably equal to what PJ would have given us, in the hypothetical that Grant was healthy.

The entire depth conversation gets thrown out the window when Grant and mann go down for the year which was my entire point.

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Tre Mann in 41 games for the Hornet is playing 29 mpg, averaging 12.6 ppg on 51.8 efg%

I think he is a cool development piece, but Terry was 20-23 ppg pretty much every year with Charlotte. Do you think Mann is a better player than Rozier was during their time in Charlotte? Yes Terry has sucked in Miami, but that is a different role, different team - he more than likely was going to give us similar production this year as he has in the past.

Again, I think we did fine in the Terry trade and not mad we moved him, but we have not replaced him. Josh Green is overpaid and Mann is a solid bench guard, Terry was someone that every night gave Melo another guard to carry the load and keep defenses honest- we have no other guard close to that right now.

[fatlever]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote individual passages but regarding the depth conversation. Again my point was that our depth this year looks bad compared to last year because of the injuries.

I think most people going into the season would have agreed that our depth was better this year compared to the beginning of last season when the bottom half of the roster was filled with Mitch's projects.

The conversation of depth regarding the shooting guard position held by Terry Rozier, wasn't Terry versus all of the G League 10-day contract scrubs we've been rolling out lately. It would have been the conversation between Terry versus a healthy mann and Josh green. Despite how disappointing Josh green has been this year, I would still argue that I would take a healthy mann and green over the version that the terry from the Heat this year.

Regarding Grant versus PJ, while your fave EPM stats favor pj, look at the plus-minus and on off metrics for the Hornets with Grant on the floor the second half of last year and a few games this year versus when he was off. He was making more of an impact than pretty much anyone on the roster other than Melo. Not to mention that I think it's pretty easy to see that Grant was a leader that this team needed more so than what PJ was providing in that department. Two different types of players that necessarily can't be compared apples to apples. We also got curry in that trade. pure roster depth point of view Grant and Curry is probably equal to what PJ would have given us, in the hypothetical that Grant was healthy.

The entire depth conversation gets thrown out the window when Grant and mann go down for the year which was my entire point.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Tre Mann in 41 games for the Hornet is playing 29 mpg, averaging 12.6 ppg on 51.8 efg%

I think he is a cool development piece, but Terry was 20-23 ppg pretty much every year with Charlotte. Do you think Mann is a better player than Rozier was during their time in Charlotte? Yes Terry has sucked in Miami, but that is a different role, different team - he more than likely was going to give us similar production this year as he has in the past.

Again, I think we did fine in the Terry trade and not mad we moved him, but we have not replaced him. Josh Green is overpaid and Mann is a solid bench guard, Terry was someone that every night gave Melo another guard to carry the load and keep defenses honest- we have no other guard close to that right now.

See what you did there though? You changed the scope of the conversation. The conversation was - did we dilute the roster by trading away rotation players for future picks in the trades that we've made over the past fourteen months. So the conversation isn't about what Tre Mann would look like compared to Terry during his peak form from 2020 to 2023. The conversation is about comparing What our roster would have looked like this season had we not made those trades versus if we had made those trades. That's the conversation.

You were suggesting that our roster this year is worse because we traded away rotation players. My point is those players we traded away would not have made us a deeper team this year or a better team this year had we kept them - other than the fact that two of the key players we traded for this year had season ending injuries. So the conversation is about Terry Rozier from this year aka the version of him on the heat, versus what we would have potentially received from a healthy mann/green.

So again my whole point is the only reason our depth looks horrible this year is because of the injuries and not because we traded away players such as Terry Rozier Gordon Hayward PJ Washington and Nick Richards - But because two of the best the players that replaced them had serious injuries.

Our 24-25 depth chart if everyone was healthy
melo / mann / kj
green / mann / curry / nsj
miller / okogie / jefferies
miles / grant / salaun
mark / nurk / moose

Versus our 24-25 depth chart had we not traded away for replacement players and picks "rotation" players
melo / rozier / kj
rozier / nsj
miller / cody
miles / pj / salaun
mark / nick / moose
*hayward retired, so not included in 24-25

So I still don't understand the argument that we made the team worse by trading away Rozier Hayward PJ cody and Richards. injuries made us worse, not trades.

And neither roster is making the playoffs if everyone is healthy. So give me the version that has a bunch of first round picks attached to it.

[JMAC3]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote individual passages but regarding the depth conversation. Again my point was that our depth this year looks bad compared to last year because of the injuries.

I think most people going into the season would have agreed that our depth was better this year compared to the beginning of last season when the bottom half of the roster was filled with Mitch's projects.

The conversation of depth regarding the shooting guard position held by Terry Rozier, wasn't Terry versus all of the G League 10-day contract scrubs we've been rolling out lately. It would have been the conversation between Terry versus a healthy mann and Josh green. Despite how disappointing Josh green has been this year, I would still argue that I would take a healthy mann and green over the version that the terry from the Heat this year.

Regarding Grant versus PJ, while your fave EPM stats favor pj, look at the plus-minus and on off metrics for the Hornets with Grant on the floor the second half of last year and a few games this year versus when he was off. He was making more of an impact than pretty much anyone on the roster other than Melo. Not to mention that I think it's pretty easy to see that Grant was a leader that this team needed more so than what PJ was providing in that department. Two different types of players that necessarily can't be compared apples to apples. We also got curry in that trade. pure roster depth point of view Grant and Curry is probably equal to what PJ would have given us, in the hypothetical that Grant was healthy.

The entire depth conversation gets thrown out the window when Grant and mann go down for the year which was my entire point.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Tre Mann in 41 games for the Hornet is playing 29 mpg, averaging 12.6 ppg on 51.8 efg%

I think he is a cool development piece, but Terry was 20-23 ppg pretty much every year with Charlotte. Do you think Mann is a better player than Rozier was during their time in Charlotte? Yes Terry has sucked in Miami, but that is a different role, different team - he more than likely was going to give us similar production this year as he has in the past.

Again, I think we did fine in the Terry trade and not mad we moved him, but we have not replaced him. Josh Green is overpaid and Mann is a solid bench guard, Terry was someone that every night gave Melo another guard to carry the load and keep defenses honest- we have no other guard close to that right now.

See what you did there though? You changed the scope of the conversation. The conversation was - did we dilute the roster by trading away rotation players for future picks in the trades that we've made over the past fourteen months. So the conversation isn't about what Tre Mann would look like compared to Terry during his peak form from 2020 to 2023. The conversation is about comparing What our roster would have looked like this season had we not made those trades versus if we had made those trades. That's the conversation.

You were suggesting that our roster this year is worse because we traded away rotation players. My point is those players we traded away would not have made us a deeper team this year or a better team this year had we kept them - other than the fact that two of the key players we traded for this year had season ending injuries. So the conversation is about Terry Rozier from this year aka the version of him on the heat, versus what we would have potentially received from a healthy mann/green.

So again my whole point is the only reason our depth looks horrible this year is because of the injuries and not because we traded away players such as Terry Rozier Gordon Hayward PJ Washington and Nick Richards - But because two of the best the players that replaced them had serious injuries.

Our 24-25 depth chart if everyone was healthy
melo / mann / kj
green / mann / curry / nsj
miller / okogie / jefferies
miles / grant / salaun
mark / nurk / moose

Versus our 24-25 depth chart had we not traded away for replacement players and picks "rotation" players
melo / rozier / kj
rozier / nsj
miller / cody
miles / pj / salaun
mark / nick / moose
*hayward retired, so not included in 24-25

So I still don't understand the argument that we made the team worse by trading away Rozier Hayward PJ cody and Richards. injuries made us worse, not trades.

And neither roster is making the playoffs if everyone is healthy. So give me the version that has a bunch of first round picks attached to it.

Because Terry Rozier is better than Josh Green or Tre Mann.
Pj is better than Grant Williams. - this is not a hot take go post on the general board and see who people this is better.

It is that simple, we don't have to try and complicate it any more than that.

If PJ Washington were available multiple teams would be willing to trade a first round pick for him, do you think we are getting a first round pick back for Grant Williams at any point next year?

[luciano-davidwesley]

Tre Mann in 41 games for the Hornet is playing 29 mpg, averaging 12.6 ppg on 51.8 efg%

I think he is a cool development piece, but Terry was 20-23 ppg pretty much every year with Charlotte. Do you think Mann is a better player than Rozier was during their time in Charlotte? Yes Terry has sucked in Miami, but that is a different role, different team - he more than likely was going to give us similar production this year as he has in the past.

Again, I think we did fine in the Terry trade and not mad we moved him, but we have not replaced him. Josh Green is overpaid and Mann is a solid bench guard, Terry was someone that every night gave Melo another guard to carry the load and keep defenses honest- we have no other guard close to that right now.

See what you did there though? You changed the scope of the conversation. The conversation was - did we dilute the roster by trading away rotation players for future picks in the trades that we've made over the past fourteen months. So the conversation isn't about what Tre Mann would look like compared to Terry during his peak form from 2020 to 2023. The conversation is about comparing What our roster would have looked like this season had we not made those trades versus if we had made those trades. That's the conversation.

You were suggesting that our roster this year is worse because we traded away rotation players. My point is those players we traded away would not have made us a deeper team this year or a better team this year had we kept them - other than the fact that two of the key players we traded for this year had season ending injuries. So the conversation is about Terry Rozier from this year aka the version of him on the heat, versus what we would have potentially received from a healthy mann/green.

So again my whole point is the only reason our depth looks horrible this year is because of the injuries and not because we traded away players such as Terry Rozier Gordon Hayward PJ Washington and Nick Richards - But because two of the best the players that replaced them had serious injuries.

Our 24-25 depth chart if everyone was healthy
melo / mann / kj
green / mann / curry / nsj
miller / okogie / jefferies
miles / grant / salaun
mark / nurk / moose

Versus our 24-25 depth chart had we not traded away for replacement players and picks "rotation" players
melo / rozier / kj
rozier / nsj
miller / cody
miles / pj / salaun
mark / nick / moose
*hayward retired, so not included in 24-25

So I still don't understand the argument that we made the team worse by trading away Rozier Hayward PJ cody and Richards. injuries made us worse, not trades.

And neither roster is making the playoffs if everyone is healthy. So give me the version that has a bunch of first round picks attached to it.

Because Terry Rozier is better than Josh Green or Tre Mann.
Pj is better than Grant Williams. - this is not a hot take go post on the general board and see who people this is better.

It is that simple, we don't have to try and complicate it any more than that.

If PJ Washington were available multiple teams would be willing to trade a first round pick for him, do you think we are getting a first round pick back for Grant Williams at any point next year?

Again IDGAF what the gen board has to say about our team, they've got no idea. We have all watched PJ and Grant play way more than they have.

Other than the catastrophic knee injury there's really not a big gap between PJ and Grant.

I'd say PJ is a slightly better player but there's really not that much in it. There will probably be a bigger gap between them next year due to the ACL injury though.

I still take Grant, Seth and the Mavs first over PJ every day of the week.

Also Grant Williams is the closest thing this team has had to a leader in a long time, whereas PJ has zero leadership qualities.

[fatlever]

terry is 31 and has been awful this year. 39/30/85, awful defender for miami this year.
Not to mention that he might possibly be involved in a betting scandal. So yeah I will happily take a healthy 24yo mann over terry right now. Just goes back to injuries.