PG: KNICKS vs Mavs - Welcome To The NBA, McCullar

[Clyde_Style]

i do not believe thibs doesnt know what his players can do. all he does is watch these kids every practice and every game. he knows these players very well.

The fact is that Thibs grew on Quick, McBride & Grimes fairly quickly. Grimes year two - especially. (29.9 minutes per game, 66 starts), but also Quick (23.1, 3 starts) and McBride was slower, he even saw some G-league time early, 11.9 year 2, 2 starts, but 19.5, year 3 with 14 starts.

"Thibs doesn't trust rookies" - OK, fair. especially this year. But if we go by history, he's played the kids their 2nd year in the past, McBride was year 3 more than year 2, but it's not crazy to think he might include these young-uns in the rotation next year. (Maybe not Dadiet), but the other 3 have maybe earned it.

He's the only coach in the league who would have handled Kolek like this. Other teams would have had an obviously ready-to-go baller like him in the rotation in his rookie year.

[cgf]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

[thebuzzardman]

We've been watching cam payne chuck deep 3s all season when we could have been playing mark price 2.0. Add another reason to the fire thibs.

I bet Hul, Dadiet (or McCullar), and Kolek could give us more now and in the future than the other guys playing in front of them. Thibs can’t see past today.

I wonder if vet mins also has to do with agent agreements. Cause its ridiculous these kids don't play a lil more. I just have a hard time believing there isn't a consensus.

I know the answer. Reply back and I will tell you.

[knicks94]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

The kids have been ready to contribute. The coach just hasn't been ready to use them.

[cgf]

I bet Hul, Dadiet (or McCullar), and Kolek could give us more now and in the future than the other guys playing in front of them. Thibs can’t see past today.

I wonder if vet mins also has to do with agent agreements. Cause its ridiculous these kids don't play a lil more. I just have a hard time believing there isn't a consensus.

you can even be selective about it. You play enough of the dregs of the NBA along with b2b where we could have been selective on when we add them to the rotation.

Thibs has always been this way...he has an 8-9 man rotation and unless there is a injury no one is cracking that rotation especially a rookie regardless of development.

This is the first season in NY that Thibs didn't start with a 10 man rotation before whittling it down and our bench minutes were down 20-30% from previous years. So Thibs gunna Thibs, but he has never "Thibs'd" this hard before.

[cgf]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

The kids have been ready to contribute. The coach just hasn't been ready to use them.

That would be out of character for him. The man is too obsessed with winning not to have used capable options if he had them, as he's proven over the past 4 years.

[robillionaire]

i do not believe thibs doesnt know what his players can do. all he does is watch these kids every practice and every game. he knows these players very well.

The fact is that Thibs grew on Quick, McBride & Grimes fairly quickly. Grimes year two - especially. (29.9 minutes per game, 66 starts), but also Quick (23.1, 3 starts) and McBride was slower, he even saw some G-league time early, 11.9 year 2, 2 starts, but 19.5, year 3 with 14 starts.

"Thibs doesn't trust rookies" - OK, fair. especially this year. But if we go by history, he's played the kids their 2nd year in the past, McBride was year 3 more than year 2, but it's not crazy to think he might include these young-uns in the rotation next year. (Maybe not Dadiet), but the other 3 have maybe earned it.

He's the only coach in the league who would have handled Kolek like this. Other teams would have had obviously ready-to-go baller like him in the rotation in his rookie year.

I look at it this way, every other team in the league passed on drafting him which is why he was a 2nd round pick. If his talent level was/is as evident as people are saying (year 1 rotation backup or fill in starter on a team with championship aspirations) he’d have probably been a lottery pick. other teams saw everything you saw in college including leading in assists and they didn’t draft him for some reason. So it wasn’t any kind of sure thing situation as is being presented t where we should have known he should be the backup PG on day 1. Especially when that’s a gamble and we are trying to win the championship

But you’re right there probably are a lot of teams who would have had him in their rotation in his rookie year but all those teams would be in different situations, likely worse than us, they don’t have the best PG in the nba like we do who plays a ton of minutes himself

Payne is pretty spastic but he’s got the job and I hope Kolek can keep showing his stuff and take the job next season

[knicks94]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

The kids have been ready to contribute. The coach just hasn't been ready to use them.

That would be out of character for him. The man is too obsessed with winning not to have used capable options if he had them, as he's proven over the past 4 years.

Thibs has always had the tendency to let rookies rot on the bench by over playing his veterans. This isn't a new discovery.Tell me how many guys in the last 4 seasons has Thibs developed in their rookie year? Players don't just develop from sitting on the bench.

[Clyde_Style]

The fact is that Thibs grew on Quick, McBride & Grimes fairly quickly. Grimes year two - especially. (29.9 minutes per game, 66 starts), but also Quick (23.1, 3 starts) and McBride was slower, he even saw some G-league time early, 11.9 year 2, 2 starts, but 19.5, year 3 with 14 starts.

"Thibs doesn't trust rookies" - OK, fair. especially this year. But if we go by history, he's played the kids their 2nd year in the past, McBride was year 3 more than year 2, but it's not crazy to think he might include these young-uns in the rotation next year. (Maybe not Dadiet), but the other 3 have maybe earned it.

He's the only coach in the league who would have handled Kolek like this. Other teams would have had obviously ready-to-go baller like him in the rotation in his rookie year.

I look at it this way, every other team in the league passed on drafting him which is why he was a 2nd round pick. If his talent level was/is as evident as people are saying (year 1 rotation backup or fill in starter on a team with championship aspirations) he’d have probably been a lottery pick. other teams saw everything you saw in college including leading in assists and they didn’t draft him for some reason. So it wasn’t any kind of sure thing situation as is being presented t where we should have known he should be the backup PG on day 1. Especially when that’s a gamble and we are trying to win the championship

But you’re right there probably are a lot of teams who would have had him in their rotation in his rookie year but all those teams would be in different situations, likely worse than us, they don’t have the best PG in the nba like we do who plays a ton of minutes himself

Payne is pretty spastic but he’s got the job and I hope Kolek can keep showing his stuff and take the job next season

Set aside all considerations for a moment and ask yourself this:

after watching both Kolek and Payne these past two games, whom would you default to as your backup PG, Payne or Kolek?

Payne works sometimes as an energy boost and quick scores, but he is also erratic, prone to chucking and bad decisions and if he's not drilling threes he does not necessarily enhance the performance of his teammates.

Kolek is practically the opposite of what I just said about Payne. Can Kolek score? Yes, he has a nice shooting form and he's likely to be a better shooter than Payne. And he knows how to get to the rack. But he is presently focused on pass first as he most likely will always be. He gets the guys around him synced up.

[WaltFrazier]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.


Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

It could have been done more this year, and next year it would take a different coach to come in with a Kenny Atkinson-like approach to bench minutes, to really develop the 4 rookies into rotation guys . To make it happen much faster than Thibs would.

[MrDollarBills]

If next season's rotation replaces Payne/Shamet/Precious with Kolek/Mccullar/Hukporti...and Mitch is healthy from day one. I like that rotation better than this season's already. I suspect Rose will try to make a move or two using what limited tools he has, but I've seen enough flashes from Kolek and Hukporti to be hype about their growth. Mccullar's college tape says enough for me too.

...Dadiet...can't win 'em all. Give him an offseason and see how his development goes.

This team will definitely be better roster wise.

[Knicksfan1992]

I say this as someone who was CLAMORING for us to draft Kolek and think he's a good player, I'm not really sure where the minutes were supposed to come from this season...

The Knicks have been GOOD with Payne and Deuce on the floor. They are a +9.7 Net together. Even with Payne and without Deuce we're at +9.3 Net.

Cam Payne counting stats may not look awesome but he's been really important for us because he's a willing shooter on a team that can sometimes shy away from shooting and he's an energy guy on a team that lacks it. And there's no way Kolek was taking Deuce's minutes.

There's really been no pure basketball reason to insert Kolek into the rotation outside of maybe the one week Brunson was hurt and he didn't play.

I'm glad Kolek is taking his opportunity and at least looks ready to contribute as a rookie. Maybe this will spur the organization to have trust for him being the backup next season.

[rajajackal]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

he can shoot and was pretty automatic early on when he got his first look. but he's 19 and he will take time to put together a consistent NBA game i think. which is fine imo because we're top heavy and have 3 older rookies that will be ready to contribute sooner

[Gravy]

One assist away from three guys with 10 assists is a crazy night for the offense but the Mavs play no defense so not sure what to take from that.

Mcullar had a really strong NBA move to score his first points. If he was healthy this season he may have had the best chance out of the rookies to get in the rotation.

[robillionaire]

He's the only coach in the league who would have handled Kolek like this. Other teams would have had obviously ready-to-go baller like him in the rotation in his rookie year.

I look at it this way, every other team in the league passed on drafting him which is why he was a 2nd round pick. If his talent level was/is as evident as people are saying (year 1 rotation backup or fill in starter on a team with championship aspirations) he’d have probably been a lottery pick. other teams saw everything you saw in college including leading in assists and they didn’t draft him for some reason. So it wasn’t any kind of sure thing situation as is being presented t where we should have known he should be the backup PG on day 1. Especially when that’s a gamble and we are trying to win the championship

But you’re right there probably are a lot of teams who would have had him in their rotation in his rookie year but all those teams would be in different situations, likely worse than us, they don’t have the best PG in the nba like we do who plays a ton of minutes himself

Payne is pretty spastic but he’s got the job and I hope Kolek can keep showing his stuff and take the job next season

Set aside all considerations for a moment and ask yourself this:

after watching both Kolek and Payne these past two games, whom would you default to as your backup PG, Payne or Kolek?

Payne works sometimes as an energy boost and quick scores, but he is also erratic, prone to chucking and bad decisions and if he's not drilling threes he does not necessarily enhance the performance of his teammates.

Kolek is practically the opposite of what I just said about Payne. Can Kolek score? Yes, he has a nice shooting form and he's likely to be a better shooter than Payne. And he knows how to get to the rack. But he is presently focused on pass first as he most likely will always be. He gets the guys around him synced up.

Well as you say about the energy boost, sometimes that exactly what you need out of your bench. But Payne has a lot of shortcomings and I don’t see him as a long term solution more like a stop gap year. I heard they mentioned on the broadcast 3 years ago he started in the western conference finals and had 29 pts and 9 ast in a game 2 win. So on some level he’s a proven contributor even with his flaws. And then even beyond that, he’s got the long running player friendships. With his experience and his player connections there’s virtually no chance he was getting benched as he hopes to find his next payday. Benching him for a rookie could also make vets think twice about coming here in the future. And it’s not like he’s been THAT bad, honestly. I’d understand it if he was just totally washed up.

Long term I would rather Kolek assuming he keeps developing. Also I hope we would bring in a bench scoring option next year to help him. As good a passer he is he can only do so much passing it to the likes of Shamet and Precious.

[cgf]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.


Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

It could have been done more this year, and next year it would take a different coach to come in with a Kenny Atkinson-like approach to bench minutes, to really develop the 4 rookies into rotation guys . To make it happen much faster than Thibs would.

Maybe, or rushing them may have stunted their growth instead of the progress we have seen from the GL time and work with our developmental staff...especially if it was costing us wins and people were getting mad at Thibs for 'wasting time developing kids when we should be contending'.

Developing young talent is as much about nurturing their confidence as it is improving their skills & teaching them how to implement those skills in games, and we've seen with barrett, Quickley, Grimes, Toppin, McBride, Sims, Hukporti, etc. that when we've had a need like we did this season and kids who were ready to play without being set up too fail, Thibs was happy to give them minutes.

All 4 won't develop into rotation guys next year no matter what, but we shouldn't need them to...we started the season with 3 of our current bench guys injured and a lot of roster tumult. If we enter next season with continuity that would mean Robinson, Achiuwa, taxpayer MLE, Shamet, and McBride behind the starters.

So the kids should just need to provide injury insurance until they are ready to take minutes from those established bench guys...like Kolek will hopefully do, pushing Deuce to the 2 and squeezing Shamet & Precious out.

[robillionaire]

One assist away from three guys with 10 assists is a crazy night for the offense but the Mavs play no defense so not sure what to take from that.

Mcullar had a really strong NBA move to score his first points. If he was healthy this season he may have had the best chance out of the rookies to get in the rotation.

Yeah they weren’t even trying on defense. But with that said I do think we played with a lot more energy than usual. Had a little extra bounce in our step, lift on shots. Idk maybe just my imagination.

McCullar is still a big mystery to me since he’s been injured for a couple years now but it was nice to see him get the bucket and have the team celebrate it that way

Uplifting win for sure

[cgf]

I say this as someone who was CLAMORING for us to draft Kolek and think he's a good player, I'm not really sure where the minutes were supposed to come from this season...

The Knicks have been GOOD with Payne and Deuce on the floor. They are a +9.7 Net together. Even with Payne and without Deuce we're at +9.3 Net.

Cam Payne counting stats may not look awesome but he's been really important for us because he's a willing shooter on a team that can sometimes shy away from shooting and he's an energy guy on a team that lacks it. And there's no way Kolek was taking Deuce's minutes.

There's really been no pure basketball reason to insert Kolek into the rotation outside of maybe the one week Brunson was hurt and he didn't play.

I'm glad Kolek is taking his opportunity and at least looks ready to contribute as a rookie. Maybe this will spur the organization to have trust for him being the backup next season.

Yep

[Fury]

Read on Twitter

Especially cause he plays well in big games, and the Knicks don't need a large rotation during the playoffs, I think people are underrating how good this Knicks team could be in the playoffs.

[cgf]

It sucks that these kids haven't been ready to contribute this year, but this draft class could provide some nice depth in time if they develop well.

If Kolek ever learns to score in the NBA, he'll help us keep the offense flowing even when Jalen rests...and he doesn't look as hopeless defensively as he did in his earlier cameo. Dadiet moves his feet well defensively, even if he's too handsy and can't shoot. Hukporti has shown some nice potential as a backup big, and even McCullar was able to remind everyone that he's still alive.

Would've been nice if any of them could've kept Thibs from using his bench 20% less than he ever has before, but our depth was always going to be a problem this season and fortunately we seem to have survived the worst of now that Precious / Shamet / Mitch are rounding into form, and by next season hopefully at least one of those kids is ready to take that step.

he can shoot and was pretty automatic early on when he got his first look. but he's 19 and he will take time to put together a consistent NBA game i think. which is fine imo because we're top heavy and have 3 older rookies that will be ready to contribute sooner

He shot poorly in the GL, so I tend to believe that was just a hot start rather than a signal of where his shooting really is already. But the mechanics look good so he should be able to learn how to shoot, he is just a baby still.