Patrick Williams is having his worst year

[WesPeace]

If we don't want to pay this horrible amount of money for nothing we need to seperate him from the team for one year and should hire a team of personal coaches that is going to teach him the basics, trying to be motivated, outboxing, cutting, rebounding techniqs, beeing aware of what happens around him, ... .
Such a 4 coach team around the clock might cost a few hundred thousands per year. Peanuts in relation to the 18 mio we'd wasting otherwise.

Lock him up in MJ basement for one month

[dougthonus]

Fair enough. But do we want a guy who can't make a layup making basket cuts?

Probably not, my point wasn't whether we want Pat or don't want Pat. My point is that Pat's play isn't the coaching staffs fault. You saw Javonte Green, Derrick Jones Jr, and Matas all play in the same position with the same coach and all do very different things. Pat's style of play is based on Pat.

The interesting question is whether Phillips should be in next season's rotation instead of PWill. IMO, Phillips has outplayed Pat comfortably this season. Next season, assuming Vuc (optimistically) and Tre (unfortunately) are gone, I see something like:

Phillips is more or less a fighting for 10th man quality player to me. Based on what he does in the off season, maybe he moves up, but he's not good enough to factor into any equations IMO. Expect nothing and if you get something it's a bonus. His contract makes him a good guy to continue to take a risk on.

[Ice Man]

Probably not, my point wasn't whether we want Pat or don't want Pat. My point is that Pat's play isn't the coaching staffs fault. You saw Javonte Green, Derrick Jones Jr, and Matas all play in the same position with the same coach and all do very different things. Pat's style of play is based on Pat.

To pile on, people credit/blame coaches for far too many things. Jimmy Butler is Jimmy Butler whether I coach him, you coach him, or Red Auerbach coaches him. You can't find a single thing he has done differently with Fred in Chicago, or Thibs in Minnesota, or Brett in Philly, or Spo in Miami, or Kerr in SF.

Young players aren't quite as set in their ways, but the principle remains. They're going to play mostly as they know how to play. As I wrote earlier, a coach can tilt the scale by either pushing the player to stretch, or taking the opposite path by telling him to keep things simpler, but ultimately there is only so much that a coach can (and should) do.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I just wanted to point out how lucky a guy like Pat is. I would extend that to Dalen Terry too.

You can go from thinking you have stability, to being completely bounced around the league. This isnt equal opportunity.

I look at players like Kevin Knox and more recently Cam Reddish. Guys who have talent but whatever flaw gets in the way of them sticking to a roster. They cant seem to grab a role for themselves.

I look at Pat and say well he can carve himself a role but he also has been blessed that he has a team that wants to believe in him.

He could have easily been a Denzel Valentine or Hutchinson. He still might.

Next year he really needs to get it together.

[Hangtime84]

I just wanted to point out how lucky a guy like Pat is. I would extend that to Dalen Terry too.

You can go from thinking you have stability, to being completely bounced around the league. This isnt equal opportunity.

I look at players like Kevin Knox and more recently Cam Reddish. Guys who have talent but whatever flaw gets in the way of them sticking to a roster. They cant seem to grab a role for themselves.

I look at Pat and say well he can carve himself a role but he also has been blessed that he has a team that wants to believe in him.

He could have easily been a Denzel Valentine or Hutchinson. He still might.

Next year he really needs to get it together.

I think DV stays in the league if he was in a better organization. A big no to Hutch mainly because I know people close to him. He isn’t a hard worker like DT or even Patrick Williams.

[sco]

I just wanted to point out how lucky a guy like Pat is. I would extend that to Dalen Terry too.

You can go from thinking you have stability, to being completely bounced around the league. This isnt equal opportunity.

I look at players like Kevin Knox and more recently Cam Reddish. Guys who have talent but whatever flaw gets in the way of them sticking to a roster. They cant seem to grab a role for themselves.

I look at Pat and say well he can carve himself a role but he also has been blessed that he has a team that wants to believe in him.

He could have easily been a Denzel Valentine or Hutchinson. He still might.

Next year he really needs to get it together.

I think DV stays in the league if he was in a better organization. A big no to Hutch mainly because I know people close to him. He isn’t a hard worker like DT or even Patrick Williams.

I think a lot of the organizations desire to believe in him is that invested the 4th pick on him (and now the big contract). I'm a big believer in the sunk cost fallacy. That's all in the past. If we find a vet min guy who is better, glue Pat's butt to the bench. Barring a major offseason improvement, giving Pat more minutes is more likely to decrease his value than increase it.

[Clint Eastwood]

Need to eat the crappy contract. He can not play NBA basketball. If he doesn’t play tonight we win by 10. I have realized, its not just his lack of motor. His lack of motor has hidden the fact that he also has low basketball IQ. I can’t remember disliking watching a bull play basketball more than him. His signing makes the felicio moronic deal look like a bargain. Those are the only two contracts in bulls history that the minute they were announced I almost lost my mind.

[Indomitable]

Fair enough. But do we want a guy who can't make a layup making basket cuts?

Probably not, my point wasn't whether we want Pat or don't want Pat. My point is that Pat's play isn't the coaching staffs fault. You saw Javonte Green, Derrick Jones Jr, and Matas all play in the same position with the same coach and all do very different things. Pat's style of play is based on Pat.

The interesting question is whether Phillips should be in next season's rotation instead of PWill. IMO, Phillips has outplayed Pat comfortably this season. Next season, assuming Vuc (optimistically) and Tre (unfortunately) are gone, I see something like:

Phillips is more or less a fighting for 10th man quality player to me. Based on what he does in the off season, maybe he moves up, but he's not good enough to factor into any equations IMO. Expect nothing and if you get something it's a bonus. His contract makes him a good guy to continue to take a risk on.

Phillips at least has awareness. He needs to work on his strength and handle.

[Axolotl]

PWill is a bust and makes the team worse. The org needs to accept it, accept the sunk cost and move on.

Yes, he was the #4 pick – and Kris Dunn was #5 pick. Draft position becomes immaterial when the player's developmental arch is flat. Or negative.

PWill's contract is dead weight, not an uncommon situation in the league. Dead weight is bad enough, the org should not be making things worse by having him on the court that much.

[Rose2Boozer]

Williams have a pretty low bar and constantly fails to reach it. The only thing he has to do is defend, rebound, and make open shots. He can't even do that and make himself a positive on the court. Jalen Smith should take all of his minutes, and give Williams the off-season to get his **** together.

[erlim]

I feel like the club and Patrick himself would be fine stashing him with the Windy City squad. Maybe he could find some rhythm and confidence. Maybe not. I still believe his ceiling is as a rotational guy in mainland China.

[dougthonus]

Need to eat the crappy contract. He can not play NBA basketball. If he doesn’t play tonight we win by 10. I have realized, its not just his lack of motor. His lack of motor has hidden the fact that he also has low basketball IQ. I can’t remember disliking watching a bull play basketball more than him. His signing makes the felicio moronic deal look like a bargain. Those are the only two contracts in bulls history that the minute they were announced I almost lost my mind.

I have been saying the low basketball IQ thing for like 3 years now. I don't think it's motor at all, it's that he just doesn't know what he should do until it's too late. He can't process the game at NBA speed, so it looks like he's not trying, but it's not that, it's that by the time he realizes what he should have done the opportunity is long gone. This presents as a "low motor" problem, but it's actually far worse. If it was merely low motor, someone could ride his ass and maybe get him better, but he is incapable because on defense he just doesn't know where he should be an on offense he can't make the right play off the ball to get to the right spots or make anything happen. On the ball he simply lacks the ball handling to do anything.

Pat's going to be optimized by working purely on his athleticism and be a stand still three point shooter and point of attack defender. Areas which de-emphasize his decision making / ball handling and allow him to keep the game as simple as possible IMO.

[Ice Man]

I have been saying the low basketball IQ thing for like 3 years now. I don't think it's motor at all, it's that he just doesn't know what he should do until it's too late. He can't process the game at NBA speed, so it looks like he's not trying, but it's not that, it's that by the time he realizes what he should have done the opportunity is long gone. This presents as a "low motor" problem, but it's actually far worse.

Exactly. I mean, we Bulls fans should understand, because we already went through this with Tyrus. Sure, Pat thinks faster than Tyrus did, as he suffers from a milder form of the same problem. But it's still a problem -- and an incurable one at that.

Note: To an extent, Jerian Grant also had the same problem, which is why Fred kept giving him your advice, to keep things simple and not overcomplicate the game. Although with Jerian, part of his problems arose from a lack of confidence, which might not (or might, I don't know) have been the case with Tyrus and Pat.

[dougthonus]

I have been saying the low basketball IQ thing for like 3 years now. I don't think it's motor at all, it's that he just doesn't know what he should do until it's too late. He can't process the game at NBA speed, so it looks like he's not trying, but it's not that, it's that by the time he realizes what he should have done the opportunity is long gone. This presents as a "low motor" problem, but it's actually far worse.

Exactly. I mean, we Bulls fans should understand, because we already went through this with Tyrus. Sure, Pat thinks faster than Tyrus did, as he suffers from a milder form of the same problem. But it's still a problem -- and an incurable one at that.

Note: To an extent, Jerian Grant also had the same problem, which is why Fred kept giving him your advice, to keep things simple and not overcomplicate the game. Although with Jerian, part of his problems arose from a lack of confidence, which might not (or might, I don't know) have been the case with Tyrus and Pat.

Tyrus was kind of the high motor version of Pat when you think about it.

[MrSparkle]

Pat seems to still not have had his adult life “wake-up call.” In his defense, he seems like the nicest, calmest guy on the roster. Otoh he’s incredibly well-paid for how young he is, and how little he contributes (and has contributed).

Simple goals this summer: slim down and speed up, get 3Ps up.

I think Patrick and Ayo could be bundled for a salary 2026 dump, but that could end up looking bad if Pat’s 3P makes go up in a new environment. He is not a good fit for fast-paced offense. Javonte’s superior fit made that case when we first tried the Showtime/Lonzo Bulls.

[sco]

Need to eat the crappy contract. He can not play NBA basketball. If he doesn’t play tonight we win by 10. I have realized, its not just his lack of motor. His lack of motor has hidden the fact that he also has low basketball IQ. I can’t remember disliking watching a bull play basketball more than him. His signing makes the felicio moronic deal look like a bargain. Those are the only two contracts in bulls history that the minute they were announced I almost lost my mind.

I have been saying the low basketball IQ thing for like 3 years now. I don't think it's motor at all, it's that he just doesn't know what he should do until it's too late. He can't process the game at NBA speed, so it looks like he's not trying, but it's not that, it's that by the time he realizes what he should have done the opportunity is long gone. This presents as a "low motor" problem, but it's actually far worse. If it was merely low motor, someone could ride his ass and maybe get him better, but he is incapable because on defense he just doesn't know where he should be an on offense he can't make the right play off the ball to get to the right spots or make anything happen. On the ball he simply lacks the ball handling to do anything.

Pat's going to be optimized by working purely on his athleticism and be a stand still three point shooter and point of attack defender. Areas which de-emphasize his decision making / ball handling and allow him to keep the game as simple as possible IMO.

Sadly, this, 100%. But I'd add that an investment this summer with Johny-dribbles-a-lot would be a VERY good one.

[sco]

I have been saying the low basketball IQ thing for like 3 years now. I don't think it's motor at all, it's that he just doesn't know what he should do until it's too late. He can't process the game at NBA speed, so it looks like he's not trying, but it's not that, it's that by the time he realizes what he should have done the opportunity is long gone. This presents as a "low motor" problem, but it's actually far worse.

Exactly. I mean, we Bulls fans should understand, because we already went through this with Tyrus. Sure, Pat thinks faster than Tyrus did, as he suffers from a milder form of the same problem. But it's still a problem -- and an incurable one at that.

Note: To an extent, Jerian Grant also had the same problem, which is why Fred kept giving him your advice, to keep things simple and not overcomplicate the game. Although with Jerian, part of his problems arose from a lack of confidence, which might not (or might, I don't know) have been the case with Tyrus and Pat.

Ironically, Pat seemed to be smart enough to do those things he could do reasonably well. It was Billy who pushed him (understandably) to do the stuff he does now. And Pat, to his credit, is doing what he has been asked to do. He just is remarkably bad at dribbling and scoring at the rim.

[dawhizz]

This team would be much better if we had kept Torrey Craig and given him Pat’s minutes. I know that was never going to happen but it does demonstrate how easy it would be to upgrade from him for cheap.

[dougthonus]

Sadly, this, 100%. But I'd add that an investment this summer with Johny-dribbles-a-lot would be a VERY good one.

I think he's so far away from ever being an on-ball player there is no point. I think his career would be amplified far more by simply getting as athletic as possible and improving his release speed on his jumper.

There are limited on ball reps anyway, and he's so far away from being effective there, and would need to add so many other skills (like finishing / passing / BBIQ) to really utilize ball handling, that it just feels so unlikely to pay off. Slimming down and getting into elite physical condition to defend and having a quick shot would allow him to carve out a nice career without putting unreasonable expectations of improvement, and if he were to do those things and improve in other areas later, those things would still be super valuable in any context.

[sco]

Sadly, this, 100%. But I'd add that an investment this summer with Johny-dribbles-a-lot would be a VERY good one.

I think he's so far away from ever being an on-ball player there is no point. I think his career would be amplified far more by simply getting as athletic as possible and improving his release speed on his jumper.

There are limited on ball reps anyway, and he's so far away from being effective there, and would need to add so many other skills (like finishing / passing / BBIQ) to really utilize ball handling, that it just feels so unlikely to pay off. Slimming down and getting into elite physical condition to defend and having a quick shot would allow him to carve out a nice career without putting unreasonable expectations of improvement, and if he were to do those things and improve in other areas later, those things would still be super valuable in any context.

I'd say it this way. You'd be right that he shouldn't be dribbling as much as he does. I'm saying there is no putting that genie back in the bottle because the Bulls have spent so much time and effort getting him to be more aggressive. The goal should just be to have be less horrible at it. Terry (who I get has more ball handling duties) did it last season, and I've seen improvement with him this season.