PG: Clippers vs. Knicks: Let the Bodies Hit the Floor

[Guano]

That last page is just nasty, an entire page whining about how the board is. Get a diary.

Truly unbecoming.

[Guano]

Meanwhile while everyone is arguing the same boring sht 3pac is killing it

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I believe in 3pac.

We're a small but proud community.

The size and defense is there. The shot looks nice. 19 and hope. French. I'm in.

[knicks94]

One defensive player aint covering for the two all-star starters, who are among the worst defensive players at their positions. the Celtics, Cavs and Thunder dont have that issue or have the personnel to minimize their weaknesses.

The young potential talent are 2nd rounders from a weak draft that should be in the g-league or China right now. Blaming Thibs for not making this a championship roster is absurd

Explain why there are teams with less talent than the Knicks who play better against top teams than we do. How is it that a team like the Hawks, who are a lot worse defensively than the Knicks, does far better against the Celtics and Cavs than we do?

Last time I checked, many second rounders have had successful NBA careers when given the opportunity to do so. Our best player happens to be a second rounder. Mitchell Robinson was given an opportunity to play very early in his NBA career and developed into a solid defensive player. How can anyone conclude that all of the guys that we drafted last summer belong in the minor leagues if they are rarely given any opportunity to develop on an NBA level due to our coach's preference for veteran players?

Again, no one is calling this a championship roster or referring to our bench as a championship caliber bench, but the concerning flaws that Thibs has as a coach should not be ignored and swept under a rug in defense of him.

We are better than the Hawks and they are not beating the Cavs and Celtics in the playoffs. A random regular season game between them that nobody here watched is meaningless.

Kolek Pacome and Hukporti are not the difference between us beating the top 3 teams, cmon now

No one is arguing whether the Hawks will beat these teams in a playoff series. We are discussing what has transpired in the regular season and the concerns that fans have with Thibs as the Knicks coach. The last time I checked the Hawks were 4-2 against the Celtics and Cavs this season while we were 0-5 in 5 blowout losses vs them. That is inexcusable for a team who has superior starting talent than Atlanta.

And once again no one is saying that Kolek and those other guys are difference makers between the Knicks beating the top 3 teams and losing to them. But we should very well not be getting blown out by them so easily during the regular season if Thibs knew how to manage his roster better, develop his younger talent effectively and allowed himself to evolve as an NBA coach.

[Enzo954]

I heard Cam is injured. So who starts at the PG spot now? Tyler?

[dakomish23]

felt like we overhelped so much on post ups and minor drives and left them open for 3s over and over.

staples of the thibs defense.

once the 3's started to rain it was over.

I think we doubled Zubac in the post and he wasn't even in the paint...like WTF r we doin?

This exact thing destroyed us in the MIA series. He had us hurling defenders to double Jimmy before the dude even did anything.

[dakomish23]

Hart very ineffective. 3 PT shooting once again an issue. That run in the 3rd had a couple of blown coverages from Hart.

Hart was famously supposed to work on shooting last summer with his buddy JJ Redick. Obviously didn't happen after JJ got the Lakers job. But how did he not get with a shooting specialist to work on it? If he came back from the summer as an average shooter even, it would've made a huge difference. Teams sagging off him kills the offense

Hart doesn't load his wrist.







Loaded wrist = palm facing the ceiling, Hart's palm faces the rim.

It's easy to spot, but probably not easy to fix considering how old he is now.

Holy crap. Surprised he's been even this competent with that.

[god shammgod]

I don't seen a scenario where they would fire him and not try to improve the roster. Both would have to happen. I don't know if I agree with people that think keeping him and improving the roster would be a bad move. To me, it would depend on how they decide to improve the roster.

the only way to really improve the roster is to sell off a major piece. so it wouldn't be the same roster. mikal is about to get more expensive. precious is gonna expire. the only two bench pieces they could trade are mitch at 13 mill and mcbride at 4.3. it doesn't make sense to combine them for one player because that just makes you even thinner. not sure you can get a better player than either for the same money. might be able to get a worse player for mitch who's healthier. maybe that's worth it. but all of the money for this team is wrapped up in the starting five. there's not a lot of wiggle room.

I agree with much of what you said but what is the point of shortening the rotation, playing these players that don't fit together so many minutes together and not playing the young guys? How does it put the team in a better position going forward? Breaking players down, attempting to get a higher seed, limping into the playoffs and possibly still losing in the 1st or 2nd round doesn't make sense to me.

i would guess he considers seeding as very important. and for all the talk about thibs being a dinosaur, i think he focus on analytics much more than people realize. i would guess from the lineup data he analyzes that he wants the starting lineup to play together as much as possible because it's one of the few positive units. and probably no matter how you put together the bench units they aren't very good. would it make more sense to lose a few more games because of bad bench units and have a lower seed but fresher team for the playoffs ? maybe. but i would guess the data says that homecourt advantage is a determining factor in success in the playoffs and he's once again playing the numbers.

[god shammgod]

just for reference -

We’ll start off by stating the overall (and fairly obvious) result of our analysis: having home court advantage does in fact help in general. Since the 2013 playoffs 839 playoff games have been played on one of the team’s home courts. The home team won 509 of those games, a 60.67% winning percentage. Undeniably, it is advantageous for a team to play the most important games of the year in their own arena.

https://sportshandle.com/court-advantage-nba-playoffs/

[Fury]

the only way to really improve the roster is to sell off a major piece. so it wouldn't be the same roster. mikal is about to get more expensive. precious is gonna expire. the only two bench pieces they could trade are mitch at 13 mill and mcbride at 4.3. it doesn't make sense to combine them for one player because that just makes you even thinner. not sure you can get a better player than either for the same money. might be able to get a worse player for mitch who's healthier. maybe that's worth it. but all of the money for this team is wrapped up in the starting five. there's not a lot of wiggle room.

I agree with much of what you said but what is the point of shortening the rotation, playing these players that don't fit together so many minutes together and not playing the young guys? How does it put the team in a better position going forward? Breaking players down, attempting to get a higher seed, limping into the playoffs and possibly still losing in the 1st or 2nd round doesn't make sense to me.

i would guess he considers seeding as very important. and for all the talk about thibs being a dinosaur, i think he focus on analytics much more than people realize. i would guess from the lineup data he analyzes that he wants the starting lineup to play together as much as possible because it's one of the few positive units. and probably no matter how you put together the bench units they aren't very good. would it make more sense to lose a few more games because of bad bench units and have a lower seed but fresher team for the playoffs ? maybe. but i would guess the data says that homecourt advantage is a determining factor in success in the playoffs and he's once again playing the numbers.

This is also why I think the Knicks might do better in the playoffs than people think. You don't need extended rotations, and these guys have played many minutes together. The game slows down so they won't have to expend as much on defense, and a slow iso offense is what usually ends up happening in the playoffs for every team.

Like I said, I'm not all on the we have to fire Thibs, I ideally would like to see a few adjustments from him and think the roster might be maximized with someone else, BUT he is a great coach, and he does have some qualities that will bear out when it actually matters.

[rajajackal]

Some of the takes here are insane in the truest sense of the word - it just never stops. But it’s funny, I certainly do agree that it’s annoying af (and has been annoying af for more than a year) that talking hoops has become impossible here. It hasn’t helped that Towns turned out to be great or that Bridges has been solid and even very good in a bigger role.

The assumptions about what posters actually say are very inaccurate though. I see most posters stating that the coach has to play the bench more and that he has to run other sets and has to move Hart to the bench and none of that insinuates that the Knicks would become more talented than Boston if only he did. There’s literally not a single poster who says so. The problem this board has are the idiots who spin it that way, just as they spin everything else. The toxicity the worst posters spew is just so uncalled for, a sign of their post Randle-gate insecurity.

Why couldn’t this just be a successful, entertaining season with a talented team moving the ball, cutting backdoor without their low-IQ power forward and sitting near the top of the Eastern conference in their first attempt together? Why not enjoy?

because last year we played like a team that wanted the whole damn thing and then we cashed in all our chips over the summer. i wouldn't mind a misfire year if we still had half the flexibility we've had every season under the rose regime before this one

[god shammgod]

I agree with much of what you said but what is the point of shortening the rotation, playing these players that don't fit together so many minutes together and not playing the young guys? How does it put the team in a better position going forward? Breaking players down, attempting to get a higher seed, limping into the playoffs and possibly still losing in the 1st or 2nd round doesn't make sense to me.

i would guess he considers seeding as very important. and for all the talk about thibs being a dinosaur, i think he focus on analytics much more than people realize. i would guess from the lineup data he analyzes that he wants the starting lineup to play together as much as possible because it's one of the few positive units. and probably no matter how you put together the bench units they aren't very good. would it make more sense to lose a few more games because of bad bench units and have a lower seed but fresher team for the playoffs ? maybe. but i would guess the data says that homecourt advantage is a determining factor in success in the playoffs and he's once again playing the numbers.

This is also why I think the Knicks might do better in the playoffs than people think. You don't need extended rotations, and these guys have played many minutes together. The game slows down so they won't have to expend as much on defense, and a slow iso offense is what usually ends up happening in the playoffs for every team.

Like I said, I'm not all on the we have to fire Thibs, I ideally would like to see a few adjustments from him and think the roster might be maximized with someone else, BUT he is a great coach, and he does have some qualities that will bear out when it actually matters.

i'm not really as worried about the 1st round as some people here. there aren't many impressive teams in the conference.

[god shammgod]

Some of the takes here are insane in the truest sense of the word - it just never stops. But it’s funny, I certainly do agree that it’s annoying af (and has been annoying af for more than a year) that talking hoops has become impossible here. It hasn’t helped that Towns turned out to be great or that Bridges has been solid and even very good in a bigger role.

The assumptions about what posters actually say are very inaccurate though. I see most posters stating that the coach has to play the bench more and that he has to run other sets and has to move Hart to the bench and none of that insinuates that the Knicks would become more talented than Boston if only he did. There’s literally not a single poster who says so. The problem this board has are the idiots who spin it that way, just as they spin everything else. The toxicity the worst posters spew is just so uncalled for, a sign of their post Randle-gate insecurity.

Why couldn’t this just be a successful, entertaining season with a talented team moving the ball, cutting backdoor without their low-IQ power forward and sitting near the top of the Eastern conference in their first attempt together? Why not enjoy?

because last year we played like a team that wanted the whole damn thing and then we cashed in all our chips over the summer. i wouldn't mind a misfire year if we still had half the flexibility we've had every season under the rose regime before this one

this is it. we put ourselves in a position where it's championship or bust and nobody really considers us seriously as a contender. that's a pretty big problem.

[Gravy]

Explain why there are teams with less talent than the Knicks who play better against top teams than we do. How is it that a team like the Hawks, who are a lot worse defensively than the Knicks, does far better against the Celtics and Cavs than we do?

Last time I checked, many second rounders have had successful NBA careers when given the opportunity to do so. Our best player happens to be a second rounder. Mitchell Robinson was given an opportunity to play very early in his NBA career and developed into a solid defensive player. How can anyone conclude that all of the guys that we drafted last summer belong in the minor leagues if they are rarely given any opportunity to develop on an NBA level due to our coach's preference for veteran players?

Again, no one is calling this a championship roster or referring to our bench as a championship caliber bench, but the concerning flaws that Thibs has as a coach should not be ignored and swept under a rug in defense of him.

We are better than the Hawks and they are not beating the Cavs and Celtics in the playoffs. A random regular season game between them that nobody here watched is meaningless.

Kolek Pacome and Hukporti are not the difference between us beating the top 3 teams, cmon now

No one is arguing whether the Hawks will beat these teams in a playoff series. We are discussing what has transpired in the regular season and the concerns that fans have with Thibs as the Knicks coach. The last time I checked the Hawks were 4-2 against the Celtics and Cavs this season while we were 0-5 in 5 blowout losses vs them. That is inexcusable for a team who has superior starting talent than Atlanta.

And once again no one is saying that Kolek and those other guys are difference makers between the Knicks beating the top 3 teams and losing to them. But we should very well not be getting blown out by them so easily during the regular season if Thibs knew how to manage his roster better, develop his younger talent effectively and allowed himself to evolve as an NBA coach.

The Hawks have a much better bench with experienced players that were able to score a lot against those teams. Our bench is the worst of any playoff team. Thibs cant give these guys talent they dont have.

[god shammgod]

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[spree2kawhi]

Some of the takes here are insane in the truest sense of the word - it just never stops. But it’s funny, I certainly do agree that it’s annoying af (and has been annoying af for more than a year) that talking hoops has become impossible here. It hasn’t helped that Towns turned out to be great or that Bridges has been solid and even very good in a bigger role.

The assumptions about what posters actually say are very inaccurate though. I see most posters stating that the coach has to play the bench more and that he has to run other sets and has to move Hart to the bench and none of that insinuates that the Knicks would become more talented than Boston if only he did. There’s literally not a single poster who says so. The problem this board has are the idiots who spin it that way, just as they spin everything else. The toxicity the worst posters spew is just so uncalled for, a sign of their post Randle-gate insecurity.

Why couldn’t this just be a successful, entertaining season with a talented team moving the ball, cutting backdoor without their low-IQ power forward and sitting near the top of the Eastern conference in their first attempt together? Why not enjoy?

because last year we played like a team that wanted the whole damn thing and then we cashed in all our chips over the summer. i wouldn't mind a misfire year if we still had half the flexibility we've had every season under the rose regime before this one

this is it. we put ourselves in a position where it's championship or bust and nobody really considers us seriously as a contender. that's a pretty big problem.

Or we simply took the first step… I don’t think it’s so outlandish to consider the first three moves upgrades and realize that it is only year one. I posted this in another thread: no team in the last 40 years (lone exception being Kawhi’s Raptors) has made a major upgrade and won a championship in year 1. I don’t even know what “bust” is supposed to mean considering how young this team is.

The notion that our development could be a pretty big problem is just nonsense to me. What’s more, the notion that last year’s team was in any way better or wanted it more is just as nonsensical. You have to give it time and if you were actually interested in basketball talk, you’d appreciate the fact that Cleveland was worse than us last year and didn’t make many changes over the summer.

[Gravy]

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How many examples to do we need to get through to people?

If Cam were here the usual suspects would be crying about Thibs not developing Scam Rubbish. You're telling me the brilliant modern coach JJ Reddick cant fix him either

[Capn'O]

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I remember dancing in the streets that day with GONYK, overwhelmed by euphoria. We laughed. We cried. We played fooseball. What a glorious day that was and I dearly thank you for bringing it up.

[spree2kawhi]

Some of the takes here are insane in the truest sense of the word - it just never stops. But it’s funny, I certainly do agree that it’s annoying af (and has been annoying af for more than a year) that talking hoops has become impossible here. It hasn’t helped that Towns turned out to be great or that Bridges has been solid and even very good in a bigger role.

The assumptions about what posters actually say are very inaccurate though. I see most posters stating that the coach has to play the bench more and that he has to run other sets and has to move Hart to the bench and none of that insinuates that the Knicks would become more talented than Boston if only he did. There’s literally not a single poster who says so. The problem this board has are the idiots who spin it that way, just as they spin everything else. The toxicity the worst posters spew is just so uncalled for, a sign of their post Randle-gate insecurity.

Why couldn’t this just be a successful, entertaining season with a talented team moving the ball, cutting backdoor without their low-IQ power forward and sitting near the top of the Eastern conference in their first attempt together? Why not enjoy?

because last year we played like a team that wanted the whole damn thing and then we cashed in all our chips over the summer. i wouldn't mind a misfire year if we still had half the flexibility we've had every season under the rose regime before this one

Actually we do have all the flexibility we want. You have a roster full of plus-players and can offer any of them if you want picks in return. In my view, this team is in a great spot. I don’t cry about the lost picks because 1) they weren’t all that anyway, 2) picks don’t have as much value as 20 years ago because they are dealt a lot more, 3) you could easily trade our players for truckloads of picks if that was in any way desirable - it just isn’t. Bridges is good to have, OG is good to have, Towns is good to have.

Last year’s team had an underdog mentality and that carried to a certain extent. Randle was out and the team played with grit. Losing him certainly didn’t affect the effort level negatively. But iso-heavy teams just like underdog-types run into a wall eventually, and last year’s team was both. I’m glad Randle is gone. I’m glad the others are here. It’s simple as that.

[Capn'O]

One of the best days of my life

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2264833&start=340#p104066743
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2264833&start=400#p104068087

So glorious.

[JayTWill]

the only way to really improve the roster is to sell off a major piece. so it wouldn't be the same roster. mikal is about to get more expensive. precious is gonna expire. the only two bench pieces they could trade are mitch at 13 mill and mcbride at 4.3. it doesn't make sense to combine them for one player because that just makes you even thinner. not sure you can get a better player than either for the same money. might be able to get a worse player for mitch who's healthier. maybe that's worth it. but all of the money for this team is wrapped up in the starting five. there's not a lot of wiggle room.

I agree with much of what you said but what is the point of shortening the rotation, playing these players that don't fit together so many minutes together and not playing the young guys? How does it put the team in a better position going forward? Breaking players down, attempting to get a higher seed, limping into the playoffs and possibly still losing in the 1st or 2nd round doesn't make sense to me.

i would guess he considers seeding as very important. and for all the talk about thibs being a dinosaur, i think he focus on analytics much more than people realize. i would guess from the lineup data he analyzes that he wants the starting lineup to play together as much as possible because it's one of the few positive units. and probably no matter how you put together the bench units they aren't very good. would it make more sense to lose a few more games because of bad bench units and have a lower seed but fresher team for the playoffs ? maybe. but i would guess the data says that homecourt advantage is a determining factor in success in the playoffs and he's once again playing the numbers.

When has seeding ever determined how far a Thibs team will go? He has been eliminated from the playoffs 6 of 9 times as the higher seed and in all 3 post seasons in New York. If it happens once again we have to eventually look at the coach and the role he is playing in multiple teams with multiple roster constructions falling short in the postseason.

I can't imagine Thibs' decisions being driven by advanced analytics. He seems to be driven much more by comfort and trust imo.

It's hard for me to say this team has a limited ceiling this year and also justify the way Thibs has handled the roster this year. He says he wants the team to be playing its best basketball heading into the postseason. I don't know what part of that required short rotations, heavy minutes for the starters and limited attempts to develop the bench. Doesn't seem to have them playing their best basketball at the moment. The team has been trending downwards since the new year.