Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[SirChurros]

There’s a difference in advocating for Kuzma and the trade versus the potential of Johnson.

Middleton is a corpse that had zero value. The Bucks clearly had to attach someone to a deal if they wanted to move him. Do I think that trade should have been for Kuzma? No.

But I’m also not trying to convince myself that AJJ has anything beyond role player potential.

[Bernman]

The only types of moves Horst should be empowered to make while he's around are smaller ones - vet mins, our trash for your treasure, etc. If he's the point man on a Giannis trade, we're getting the Luka for AD/random 1st deal, only w/out the league having rigged it.

[FrieAaron]

Clearly Kuzma is not near the caliber of player that a healthy Khris is, but as I understand it the biggest value of that trade was always financial. It got us under the second apron,which as I understand it would have still affected us this offseason, and he's making $11 million less than Middleton is next season. Fair to say you don't trust Horst to make the best use of that, but for me it's a very hard deal to fully judge at this point.

[WeMajor34]

The only types of moves Horst should be empowered to make while he's around are smaller ones - vet mins, our trash for your treasure, etc. If he's the point man on a Giannis trade, we're getting the Luka for AD/random 1st deal, only w/out the league having rigged it.

Just to reinforce your point, the smaller player-for-player trades are Horst's bread and butter.

Sam Merrill --- Grayson Allen

Cam Payne --- Pat Bev

MarJon --- KPJ

Delon Wright --- Sims

Whether it's his call, ownership's, Doc's, etc., the medium to larger trades have mainly been whiffs. We would get 75 cents on the dollar for Giannis this summer if Horst is still steering the ship.

Edit: I would not trade Giannis but we'll see what happens this summer

[Bernman]

Clearly Kuzma is not near the caliber of player that a healthy Khris is, but as I understand it the biggest value of that trade was always financial. It got us under the second apron,which as I understand it would have still affected us this offseason, and he making $11 million less than Middleton is next season. Fair to say you don't trust Horst to make the best use of that, but for me it's a very hard deal to fully judge at this point.

We could have done that other ways seemingly, like Pat/2nd/Tyler Smith for a guy making 4m or less. It didn't require us to concede Middleton & AJ Johnson, while taking on a player w/ lower trade value than both of them individually in Kuz. That was their narrow focus.

There also shouldn't have been desperation to get under the 2nd apron at this deadline. The biggest penalty is losing an early '30s 1st. But you needed to be over for 2 of the next 4 years for that to happen. Had some time. I'd rather have traded Dame to get his big # off & become younger.

[slos]

In Kuzma’s defence you have to take into account that at least offensively he is best suited at PF. It’s not his fault Bucks use him most of the time in the perimeter where he is pretty much useless.

Prince is facing a similar problem being forced to start at SG by Doc, which obviously is not working well for him against quicker guards. It’s not his fault either.

Looking into more problems this team is still slow being so much dependent on Brook. Replacing just Midds with Kuzma isn’t enough for Milwaukee to become an athletic team. I love Brook, but it’s about time Bucks use him as a situational big.

Porter (28)/Rollins (20)
Trent (28)/Green (20)
Prince (28)/Kuzma (20)
Kuzma (14)/Bobby (20)/Giannis (14)
Giannis (24)/Brook (24)

With Dame off this pretty much what I have in mind for the playoffs especially against Knicks, which is the most likely scenario at this point.

- Giannis will eat KAT alive. Match Brook with Robinson minutes and you won’t have to see KAT killing Brook with 3s.

- Kuzma starts and finishes the games at PF with Giannis and three shooters at all times in these small ball lineups.

- Thibs will play his starters 40 minutes. Doc should counter going 9 deep throwing multiple fresh players against them.

[FrieAaron]

Clearly Kuzma is not near the caliber of player that a healthy Khris is, but as I understand it the biggest value of that trade was always financial. It got us under the second apron,which as I understand it would have still affected us this offseason, and he making $11 million less than Middleton is next season. Fair to say you don't trust Horst to make the best use of that, but for me it's a very hard deal to fully judge at this point.

We could have done that other ways seemingly, like Pat/2nd/Tyler Smith for a guy making 4m or less. It didn't require us to concede Middleton & AJ Johnson, while taking on a player w/ lower trade value than both of them individually in Kuz. That was their narrow focus.

There also shouldn't have been desperation to get under the 2nd apron at this deadline. The biggest penalty is losing an early '30s 1st. But you needed to be over for 2 of the next 4 years for that to happen. Had some time. I'd rather have traded Dame to get his big # off & get younger.

I'd rather keep Tyler Smith than AJ, but like you said this is all talking about other ways we could have "seemingly" done it. I'm sure I could come up with plenty of trades that I prefer and technically worked salary-wise but I have no idea what the value of Khris truly was. He was always underrated and that was before there was a question of how much he still had after the surgery. Dame likely still has more value and unless his health news is terrible will still have more value this offseason.

[Bernman]

I have been a Bobby skeptic ever since last season. His fit with Dame is far worse than his fit was with Jrue. We needed backup big scoring in 2021-2023. We still do need backup big/bench scoring (like any other team), but his value to the team has dropped with Dame on the roster. Which isn't necessarily Bobby's fault, because he's never been a defensive-minded big who does the little things.

We certainly need his bench scoring now, and I'm really interested to see how he looks post suspension. Whether or not you're a Bobby skeptic, he'll give this team a shot in the arm, especially in the first round. Depending on how you size up the roster, he very well might be our 3rd-4th best player (Giannis-Brook-Trent?), without Dame of course.

I'm rooting for the guy and I hope he comes back hungry. Everyone's milage varies around Kuzma, KPJ, and Sims, but Bobby really is a difference maker (in a first round series) if he keeps his head on straight, is efficient on offense, and grabs boards. His limitations are apparent but he'll be better than whatever Kuzma's been.

In another wasted season, that's at least one thing to look forward to.

These are the sorts of things we need to hope for to make a run. You get Bobby on one of his good runs, motivated by all the events this season. He was playing better d. Hopefully the dip doesn't happen this postseason cuz of his added perspective.

Then we get Lakers'+ Kuz, Houston KPJ, Brooklyn Brook, regular season Trent, Celtics' Doc, 2-way Green & better than ever Giannis. It's a lot that needs to go right. But Wade's 1st Championship & Nowitzki's only 1 had a lack of supporting cast, & they were worse than Giannis...

[Matches Malone]

In Kuzma’s defence you have to take into account that at least offensively he is best suited at PF. It’s not his fault Bucks use him most of the time in the perimeter where he is pretty much useless.

I do hope we see more Kuzma/Giannis frontcourt lineups. For as good as Brook has been, I always have concerns of him getting played off the court, so having that switchablity with Kuz and Giannis will be huge. Now we just have to pray Doc pulls the right levers

[Bernman]

I'd rather keep Tyler Smith than AJ, but like you said this is all talking about other ways we could have "seemingly" done it. I'm sure I could come up with plenty of trades that I prefer and technically worked salary-wise but I have no idea what the value of Khris truly was. He was always underrated and that was before there was a question of how much he still had after the surgery. Dame likely still has more value and unless his health news is terrible will still have more value this offseason.

AJJ has superior upside cuz his on ball work & has even back ended to show more this season than Smith. Was better w/ the Herd. But you'd obviously have made the Smith/2nd for Pat trade. We found someone at least.

Horst and this org has earned no benefit of the doubt on major trades. And unequivocally they could have achieved it thru dealing Dame because he made so much $. They could have shifted course. Not that getting under the apron was essential, like I said.

But they've shown tunnel vision on players and directions for many years. Hold on too long, or get fixated, & make poor moves or non moves.

[CharityStripe34]

For his athletic gifts, size and quickness, he is brutal finishing near the rim with any sort of resistance around him.

He shot 60% & 59% at the rim the last 2 seasons. He's down to 54 this one. He came in fat & hasn't totally shed that is my theory.

Not sure he was talking about Kuz but even 60% is pretty bad. Probably not many worse at his height. 54% is just ridiculous, getting into Brandon Jennings territory.

Kuzma, yes. Dude is a legit 6'9" athletic forward but traipses like a ballerina around the rim with some weird pseudo-Euro steps.

[drew881]

You keep a player like AJ by his size combined with the way he moved on the court during summer league. This isn’t Potsie who could touch his nose on the rim. So now Washington might get their Maxey plus 3 inches. Horst certainly got his inches in this trade.

[ShootingtheJ]

Its really not that crazy. Teams trade late firsts to shed salary, it happens. Us picking AJ was not seen as a great move, and not only because we are win now. Hes a long shot. Then, he didnt exactly pop in the g league, just showed flashes. The fact that we were able to salvage first round value with him is great. That the Wizards valued him was a blessing. They are the worst talent evaluators in the league, hands down.

Many here are currently being significantly influenced by him dunking in nba games while shooting 27% from 3 and i find that strange. We all knew he was an elite athlete. He needs to shoot and score efficiently and again that is a long shot. Our people were with him for months. With his athleticism, if they felt like he had a good chance at succeeding, he would be off the table. They obviously do not.

So we shed Khris's contract
We gain Kuzma's defense which should be very important
And we have flexibility to improve the team this off-season in ways that were previously impossible

For

A player that is unlikely to make it, despite some fun dunks

Now we need to shed Kuzma's contract, a worse albatross. He's not an asset. He's already stopped trying on defense.

Lol

I admire how consistently wrong you are. Its truly a marvel.

Please show me a -1 VORP player with 2 years at over $20 million a season contract remaining who was traded as a positive asset.

Teams might have considered him a player that just needed a change of scenery when he was in Washington, but that's out the window now. He's awful and aging.

[emunney]

The Middleton trade could actually be the dumbest **** thing we've ever done, and it's hard to get in that conversation.

[Bernman]

The Middleton trade could actually be the dumbest **** thing we've ever done, and it's hard to get in that conversation.

It's the 1st trade of Horst's that entered it. Before you could see what he was going for, he just consistently overpaid on bigger trades.

Dealing 2 higher trade value guys for a lower value one is akin to Vazquez for a 1st & 2nd, Tobias for Redick, & Ray for a GP rental. That, & the fact Horst just drafted AJJ, is in part why I think there was influence from Doc or Haslam. Kidd/Lasry influenced the Vazquez trade & Karl did Ray's.

[emunney]

The Middleton trade could actually be the dumbest **** thing we've ever done, and it's hard to get in that conversation.

It's the 1st trade of Horst's that entered it. Before you could see what he was going for, he just consistently overpaid on bigger trades.

Dealing 2 higher trade value guys for a lower value one is akin to Vazquez for a 1st & 2nd, Tobias for Redick, & Ray for a GP rental. That, & the fact Horst just drafted AJJ, is in part why I think there was influence from Doc or Haslam. Kidd/Lasry influenced the Vazquez trade & Karl Ray's.

I absolutely think this a Doc trade, for the record. You can hear it in how Doc talks about Kuzma.

But Horst was certainly in the room. You have to assume at the very least he lost that argument (like he did with Atkinson), which ultimately leaves him just as ineffective as if he made the decision himself.

[FrieAaron]

The Middleton trade could actually be the dumbest **** thing we've ever done, and it's hard to get in that conversation.

It's the 1st trade of Horst's that entered it. Before you could see what he was going for, he just consistently overpaid on bigger trades.

Dealing 2 higher trade value guys for a lower value one is akin to Vazquez for a 1st & 2nd, Tobias for Redick, & Ray for a GP rental. That, & the fact Horst just drafted AJJ, is in part why I think there was influence from Doc or Haslam. Kidd/Lasry influenced the Vazquez trade & Karl Ray's.

I absolutely think this a Doc trade, for the record. You can hear it in how Doc talks about Kuzma.

But Horst was certainly in the room. You have to assume at the very least he lost that argument (like he did with Atkinson), which ultimately leaves him just as ineffective as if he made the decision himself.

To be fair to Horst, since we're all in complete conjecture mode, this could also be why he wanted out.

[ShootingtheJ]

Part of the GMs job is to convince others to see his vision. Horst fails at this because he simply rarely has scouting successes.

[drew881]

Wizards play the Pacers tonight. Should be fun to see what AJ can do against them, since it is such a relevant team for us.

[theFireBlanket]

Wizards play the Pacers tonight. Should be fun to see what AJ can do against them, since it is such a relevant team for us.

Fun? Idunno about thaaat.

Khris is playing too. Fun.