Peak Giannis vs Peak Dr. J

[TheGOATRises007]

I'd lean Giannis slightly because of his defensive abilities.

Dr.J is one of the players I've come to rate higher because of people's posts about him on this board.

[One_and_Done]

Stats aren't everything, but worth posting anyway:

Giannis per 100 from 20-25: 43/17/9 on 626 TS%
Erving per 100 from 74-76: 32/13/6 on 565 TS%

Of course context matters, but here the context is Giannis was doing it for longer in a league that was so much better than the 70s that Erving might well have been playing in the Euroleague, and I'm not even sure that's much of an exaggeration.

[kcktiny]

Stats aren't everything, but worth posting anyway:

Giannis per 100 from 20-25: 43/17/9 on 626 TS%
Erving per 100 from 74-76: 32/13/6 on 565 TS%

Of course context matters

Yes it does. Do some homework.

The 3 years Erving played the average ABA SF other than Erving shot a 46.3% eFG%, Erving shot a 51.6% eFG%, 5.3% higher.

The 5 years you picked for Antetokounmpo the average PF shot a 54.3% eFG%, Giannis shot a 59.5% eFG%, 5.2% higher.

Same for both players.

Yet Erving shot a much better FT% than did Antetokounmpo, 76.3% FT% for Erving the 3 years you selected, 66.0% for Giannis those 5 seasons.

So who actually shot better when you take into account era/context - when they played and what position they played? I say it's Erving.

And you can quote per 100 statistics all you want. But the fact is Erving played far more minutes than Antetokounmpo did.

Again, from the ages of 21-29 Erving averaged 80 g and 3059 min/season (38 min/g), Antetokounmpo 68 g and 2295 min/season (34 min/g).

So why don't you start a poll and ask who would you rather have - Erving for 80 g and 38 min/g or Antetokounmpo for 68 g and 34 min/g.

Giannis was doing it for longer in a league that was so much better than the 70s

Dumb.

hat Erving might well have been playing in the Euroleague

Dumber.

and I'm not even sure that's much of an exaggeration.

I'm sure you know next to nothing about the NBA (and ABA) in the 1970s.

[One_and_Done]

I don't believe a flat TS% adjustment is appropriate. To me the far more relevant context is that Dr J played in a league that is nowhere close to the quality of today's game.

[kcktiny]

I don't believe a flat TS% adjustment is appropriate.

Of course you don't. What a surprise.

Dr J played in a league that is nowhere close to the quality of today's game.

Again. Just dumb.

Erving is an all-time great. And he played in a 70s era of all-time greats like Artis Gilmore, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Rick Barry, Dave Cowens, Walt Frazier, Elvin Hayes, Wilt Chamberlain, Tiny Archibald, George Gervin, Bob McAdoo, Moses Malone, David Thompson, Bobby Jones, and a host of others.

You weren't alive back then, did not watch the NBA (or the ABA) back then, and have no clue as to the quality of play back then.

[One_and_Done]

If only videotape existed. Oh wait.

If you want to do a poll of peak Giannis vs peak Erving, go for it. I'd be surprised if Giannis lost.

I also find it weird that, after quoting the entire post, you're always removing people's name from the quotes; it seems like you're actively trying to prevent ppl getting notifications that you replied.

[TheGOATRises007]

Stats aren't everything, but worth posting anyway:

Giannis per 100 from 20-25: 43/17/9 on 626 TS%
Erving per 100 from 74-76: 32/13/6 on 565 TS%

Of course context matters, but here the context is Giannis was doing it for longer in a league that was so much better than the 70s that Erving might well have been playing in the Euroleague, and I'm not even sure that's much of an exaggeration.

I don't get how you still don't use rTS.

Mind-boggling.

[kcktiny]

If only videotape existed. Oh wait.

Good call.

Since it's clear you haven't watched full games of him, here - you can now watch full games of Julius Erving (because you obviously have not) and see what got us all excited way back then when he first came into the NBA.

Caution - it may look weird to you, no 3pt line and all:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

If you want to do a poll of peak Giannis vs peak Erving, go for it. I'd be surprised if Giannis lost.

From the ages of 24-29, 5+ seasons, Antetokounmpo has averaged playing all of 2120 minutes a season. Wow - sounds like a true superstar, hell bent on trying to win as many games as possible.

I also find it weird that, after quoting the entire post, you're always removing people's name from the quotes; it seems like you're actively trying to prevent ppl getting notifications that you replied.

Not weird at all. I do not remove anything. I reply to the post, not the poster.

[One_and_Done]

Stats aren't everything, but worth posting anyway:

Giannis per 100 from 20-25: 43/17/9 on 626 TS%
Erving per 100 from 74-76: 32/13/6 on 565 TS%

Of course context matters, but here the context is Giannis was doing it for longer in a league that was so much better than the 70s that Erving might well have been playing in the Euroleague, and I'm not even sure that's much of an exaggeration.

I don't get how you still don't use rTS.

Mind-boggling.

If a player shot 1% above average in 1955, does it logically follow that he would also shoot 1% above average in 2025? No? Then why on earth would I assume that.

[One_and_Done]

If only videotape existed. Oh wait.

Good call.

Since it's clear you haven't watched full games of him, here - you can now watch full games of Julius Erving (because you obviously have not) and see what got us all excited way back then when he first came into the NBA.

Caution - it may look weird to you, no 3pt line and all:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

If you want to do a poll of peak Giannis vs peak Erving, go for it. I'd be surprised if Giannis lost.

From the ages of 24-29, 5+ seasons, Antetokounmpo has averaged playing all of 2120 minutes a season. Wow - sounds like a true superstar, hell bent on trying to win as many games as possible.

I also find it weird that, after quoting the entire post, you're always removing people's name from the quotes; it seems like you're actively trying to prevent ppl getting notifications that you replied.

Not weird at all. I do not remove anything. I reply to the post, not the poster.

I have seen plenty of Erving. I was a big advocate for him in the top 100 project. He is clearly worse than Giannis. Even 70s fan, a guy who rates old timey players far more than the average fan, grudgingly admitted Giannis is better. That says it all.

[70sFan]

Even 70s fan, a guy who rates old timey players far more than the average fan, grudgingly admitted Giannis is better. That says it all.

What was "grudgingly" about my post? That I like watching Julius more?

Yeah, I have Giannis ahead for peaks, but it's not because it's not appropriate comparison but because I rate defensive stars heavily. Julius is more versatile offensive player than Giannis and I am not sure I'd take Giannis over him on offense only.

[tsherkin]

I also find it weird that, after quoting the entire post, you're always removing people's name from the quotes; it seems like you're actively trying to prevent ppl getting notifications that you replied.

It's been his shtick for a long time. Takes the effort to actively remove the quote portion which would notify the poster every time.

[Texas Chuck]

I think Giannis is the better offensive player too. I think we badly underrated his offense because we don't like how he does it.

Feel no need to correct me because I know my view is outlier. But I'm also convinced it's the case.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

[tsherkin]

I think Giannis is the better offensive player too. I think we badly underrated his offense because we don't like how he does it.

Feel no need to correct me because I know my view is outlier. But I'm also convinced it's the case.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

Im with Chuck on this one. Giannis, like Harden, has an aesthetic and approach to offense which many dont like, so he gets less credit for it. But he is an absolute monster.

[70sFan]

I think Giannis is the better offensive player too. I think we badly underrated his offense because we don't like how he does it.

Feel no need to correct me because I know my view is outlier. But I'm also convinced it's the case.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but why do you think Julius was worse?

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not focused on Doctor J being worse. I've been really high on Giannis offense for years now. He's just brutally effective. And I tend to see a gut who puts that much pressure on the rim as more valuable because of it not less.

And he's proven it in the biggest games. What hurts him is untimely injuries but when he plays he's an absolute force.

Erving obviously a great player in his own right. This is no negative reflection on him at all.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

[70sFan]

I'm not focused on Doctor J being worse. I've been really high on Giannis offense for years now. He's just brutally effective. And I tend to see a gut who puts that much pressure on the rim as more valuable because of it not less.

And he's proven it in the biggest games. What hurts him is untimely injuries but when he plays he's an absolute force.

Erving obviously a great player in his own right. This is no negative reflection on him at all.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

I think it's hard to sell the idea that Giannis is proven in the biggest games. Outside of 2021 finals, his postseason career is full of ups and downs.

I do get your point though, Giannis is extremely effective at what he does. I tend to think the same about Julius (ABA version in particular), so if that's the case I generally go with more versatile player, but as I said it's nothing wrong with that statement.

[penbeast0]

Now if this said prime instead of peak, there's a very strong argument for Erving. Basically health. Erving was always available during his prime for strong playoff runs; Giannis had missed a lot of them. This "don't play hurt, you'll lessen your earnings power" philosophy you see so often today is one of the few reasons to dislike modern ball relative to 20th century ball.

That said, got to give props to Anthony Davis for trying to come back quickly this year when advisors were telling him not to.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Is there a flattering explanation for why Dr J’s BPM dropped 5 points when he joined the NBA?

Obligatory Thinking Basketball listen if you would like to hear more on Dr.J's peak drop from the ABA to NBA:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4djR6BeBzo1uDpkshfXUxC

If you don't want to listen, I can spoil what he says, but I think this is enlightening.

[One_and_Done]

Thinking basketball also just did a video on Giannis today.
https://youtu.be/jMmCd42hGQg?si=WVuSgNicVt-JVYL6