NBA Trade Thread #12

[2weekswithpay]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

[sco]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

I look at DAL, and they have 2 C's in Gafford and Lively. Lively took over the starting gig. Gafford is under contract for one more season at $14M. A bit much for a backup, but we'd need to send back salary and useful assets. Smith + filler might get them interested, but I wonder if AK would, given that we traded him away and he was a similar player back then. Also, Gafford misses a LOT of games.

[Dan Z]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

I look at DAL, and they have 2 C's in Gafford and Lively. Lively took over the starting gig. Gafford is under contract for one more season at $14M. A bit much for a backup, but we'd need to send back salary and useful assets. Smith + filler might get them interested, but I wonder if AK would, given that we traded him away and he was a similar player back then. Also, Gafford misses a LOT of games.

Is Gafford better than Smith? Maybe better at his specific role?

He's not that much better (if he is at all) so Smith plus an asset isn't worth it.

[Infinity2152]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

You can scheme however you want, you can't play 5 out with a non-shooter like Gafford. Nobody's going to guard him, and he's rarely driving from the three-point line. You end up with your big man trying to be a playmaker or jacking a horrible shot, most often.

Here's Reid catching oops, crossing guys and dunking them, dropping treys, versatile.

Watch on YouTube

[sco]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

If I understand Reid's situation, he has a $15M player option for next year that he will likely opt out of, making him a UFA. Minny has bird rights. I think the issue will be that other teams can sign him for more than we will likely have (which is next to nothing after signing Giddey and Jones) under the tax threshold. Minny will want to keep him and won't be likely to offer a S&T.

[Infinity2152]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

If I understand Reid's situation, he has a $15M player option for next year that he will likely opt out of, making him a UFA. Minny has bird rights. I think the issue will be that other teams can sign him for more than we will likely have (which is next to nothing after signing Giddey and Jones) under the tax threshold. Minny will want to keep him and won't be likely to offer a S&T.

Minny has Gobert and Randle still. Unless they let Randle go, who they traded KAT to get, there's no starting spot for Reid. There aren't many teams with cap space, and the Nets have Claxton. No other team has the money to sign him outright, I don't think.

Wolves have Gobert at $35 mill, Edwards at $45 mill, Randle has $31 mill option he could opt into (could end up costing much more), and Jaden McDaniels is at $25 mill. Conley and Divencenzo add another $21 mill. That's $157 mill and they have a few more guaranteed contracts. Dillingham is $6.6 mill. $163 mill for 8 players, cap around $155. That's before re-signing Reid and assumes Randle doesn't get more than the $31 mill. Don't think they would dare offer Reid more than $20 mill.

Every center trade proposal for the Bulls should assume Vuc is gone, either in S&T or cap. There's no way we're adding any center with Vuc here, and Collins probably goes too.' There are also three way trade options, there are so many ways the Bulls could clear cap this summer, should we list them all? We're in a way better financial situation than Minny. We have $134 mill committed and Giddey to re-sign, with three high costing players who could be gone (Huerter, Vuc, Collins). Carter could be gone. Wolves are over the cap with Randle and Reid to re-sign and a 38 year old starting PG. That money is better used elsewhere, unless they can somehow move Gobert. Minny can sign and trade him for a player who can start.

The money talk ignores the fact we already have two worse centers making near what Reid will get plus a cheap good backup. I'm still trying to see Vuc to the Warriors or Lakers anyway, either could send useful pieces to Minny, and we get Reid.

[sco]

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

If I understand Reid's situation, he has a $15M player option for next year that he will likely opt out of, making him a UFA. Minny has bird rights. I think the issue will be that other teams can sign him for more than we will likely have (which is next to nothing after signing Giddey and Jones) under the tax threshold. Minny will want to keep him and won't be likely to offer a S&T.

Minny has Gobert and Randle still. Unless they let Randle go, who they traded KAT to get, there's no starting spot for Reid. There aren't many teams with cap space, and the Nets have Claxton. No other team has the money to sign him outright, I don't think.

Wolves have Gobert at $35 mill, Edwards at $45 mill, Randle has $31 mill option he could opt into (could end up costing much more), and Jaden McDaniels is at $25 mill. Conley and Divencenzo add another $21 mill. That's $157 mill and they have a few more guaranteed contracts. Dillingham is $6.6 mill. $163 mill for 8 players, cap around $155. That's before re-signing Reid and assumes Randle doesn't get more than the $31 mill. Don't think they would dare offer Reid more than $20 mill.

Every center trade proposal for the Bulls should assume Vuc is gone, either in S&T or cap. There's no way we're adding any center with Vuc here, and Collins probably goes too.' There are also three way trade options, there are so many ways the Bulls could clear cap this summer, should we list them all? We're in a way better financial situation than Minny. We have $134 mill committed and Giddey to re-sign, with three high costing players who could be gone (Huerter, Vuc, Collins). Carter could be gone. Wolves are over the cap with Randle and Reid to re-sign and a 38 year old starting PG. That money is better used elsewhere, unless they can somehow move Gobert. Minny can sign and trade him for a player who can start.

The money talk ignores the fact we already have two worse centers making near what Reid will get plus a cheap good backup. I'm still trying to see Vuc to the Warriors or Lakers anyway, either could send useful pieces to Minny, and we get Reid.

I think you should prepare yourself to see Vuc back next season. I think LAL's needs changed dramatically once they traded AD for Luka. Without AD, Vuc adds to LA's horrible defensive issues. I think it is possible for GS to trade for Vuc, but GP3's contract expires and they'll need to add Hield to make the deal work, IIRC.

[Infinity2152]

If I understand Reid's situation, he has a $15M player option for next year that he will likely opt out of, making him a UFA. Minny has bird rights. I think the issue will be that other teams can sign him for more than we will likely have (which is next to nothing after signing Giddey and Jones) under the tax threshold. Minny will want to keep him and won't be likely to offer a S&T.

Minny has Gobert and Randle still. Unless they let Randle go, who they traded KAT to get, there's no starting spot for Reid. There aren't many teams with cap space, and the Nets have Claxton. No other team has the money to sign him outright, I don't think.

Wolves have Gobert at $35 mill, Edwards at $45 mill, Randle has $31 mill option he could opt into (could end up costing much more), and Jaden McDaniels is at $25 mill. Conley and Divencenzo add another $21 mill. That's $157 mill and they have a few more guaranteed contracts. Dillingham is $6.6 mill. $163 mill for 8 players, cap around $155. That's before re-signing Reid and assumes Randle doesn't get more than the $31 mill. Don't think they would dare offer Reid more than $20 mill.

Every center trade proposal for the Bulls should assume Vuc is gone, either in S&T or cap. There's no way we're adding any center with Vuc here, and Collins probably goes too.' There are also three way trade options, there are so many ways the Bulls could clear cap this summer, should we list them all? We're in a way better financial situation than Minny. We have $134 mill committed and Giddey to re-sign, with three high costing players who could be gone (Huerter, Vuc, Collins). Carter could be gone. Wolves are over the cap with Randle and Reid to re-sign and a 38 year old starting PG. That money is better used elsewhere, unless they can somehow move Gobert. Minny can sign and trade him for a player who can start.

The money talk ignores the fact we already have two worse centers making near what Reid will get plus a cheap good backup. I'm still trying to see Vuc to the Warriors or Lakers anyway, either could send useful pieces to Minny, and we get Reid.

I think you should prepare yourself to see Vuc back next season. I think LAL's needs changed dramatically once they traded AD for Luka. Without AD, Vuc adds to LA's horrible defensive issues. I think it is possible for GS to trade for Vuc, but GP3's contract expires and they'll need to add Hield to make the deal work, IIRC.

I fully expect to see either Vuc or Collins gone by the time the season starts. That's too much money and not enough minutes with Smith here. Without AD, Lakers have no real big and no money to get who they want. Teams with good defensive bigs aren't just letting them go, you have to take what's available. Same with the Warriors. Despite his defense, Vuc is probably the highest rated easily available center by people not in this forum. We've been talking about how difficult it would be to add Turner or Reid, who are they going to add? Lakers tried to add Mark Williams and failed. Both teams are still in win now mode, and Vuc is a win now player if you focus on his elite scoring, shooting and rebounding for position and not just his defense. Plus he's expiring, a $20 mill expiring is kind of a big deal in and of itself.

This Vuc defense is so overstated. Bulls were first in the East with a healthy Ball and Vucevic was on the court with Lavine, Patrick Williams and Derozan. The idea that a team can't win with Vuc, Austin reeves, DFS (a great defender), Lebron James and Luka Doncic, or him, Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Kuminga, come on man!

My personal choice would be to trade Collins and filler for Reid and play Reid at PF. I think he's a natural PF anyway, and Giddey, Coby, Matas, Reid, Vucevic looks damn good for a year till Vuc is off the books.

Most people seem to want to keep Collins and trade Vuc. Neither is a long term solution, both are expiring and both are having great seasons. there will be teams that want them, big men are hard to find. Changing my vote, I think Collins is the most likely to be traded, good thing he's raised his value. Bulls like Vuc, and Vuc likes the Bulls. Putting a guy like Reid next to him could do wonders. You guys think Collins or Vuc has the higher trade value now?

[sco]

Minny has Gobert and Randle still. Unless they let Randle go, who they traded KAT to get, there's no starting spot for Reid. There aren't many teams with cap space, and the Nets have Claxton. No other team has the money to sign him outright, I don't think.

Wolves have Gobert at $35 mill, Edwards at $45 mill, Randle has $31 mill option he could opt into (could end up costing much more), and Jaden McDaniels is at $25 mill. Conley and Divencenzo add another $21 mill. That's $157 mill and they have a few more guaranteed contracts. Dillingham is $6.6 mill. $163 mill for 8 players, cap around $155. That's before re-signing Reid and assumes Randle doesn't get more than the $31 mill. Don't think they would dare offer Reid more than $20 mill.

Every center trade proposal for the Bulls should assume Vuc is gone, either in S&T or cap. There's no way we're adding any center with Vuc here, and Collins probably goes too.' There are also three way trade options, there are so many ways the Bulls could clear cap this summer, should we list them all? We're in a way better financial situation than Minny. We have $134 mill committed and Giddey to re-sign, with three high costing players who could be gone (Huerter, Vuc, Collins). Carter could be gone. Wolves are over the cap with Randle and Reid to re-sign and a 38 year old starting PG. That money is better used elsewhere, unless they can somehow move Gobert. Minny can sign and trade him for a player who can start.

The money talk ignores the fact we already have two worse centers making near what Reid will get plus a cheap good backup. I'm still trying to see Vuc to the Warriors or Lakers anyway, either could send useful pieces to Minny, and we get Reid.

I think you should prepare yourself to see Vuc back next season. I think LAL's needs changed dramatically once they traded AD for Luka. Without AD, Vuc adds to LA's horrible defensive issues. I think it is possible for GS to trade for Vuc, but GP3's contract expires and they'll need to add Hield to make the deal work, IIRC.

I fully expect to see either Vuc or Collins gone by the time the season starts. That's too much money and not enough minutes with Smith here. Without AD, Lakers have no real big and no money to get who they want. Teams with good defensive bigs aren't just letting them go, you have to take what's available. Same with the Warriors. Despite his defense, Vuc is probably the highest rated easily available center by people not in this forum. We've been talking about how difficult it would be to add Turner or Reid, who are they going to add? Lakers tried to add Mark Williams and failed. Both teams are still in win now mode, and Vuc is a win now player if you focus on his elite scoring, shooting and rebounding for position and not just his defense. Plus he's expiring, a $20 mill expiring is kind of a big deal in and of itself.

This Vuc defense is so overstated. Bulls were first in the East with a healthy Ball and Vucevic was on the court with Lavine, Patrick Williams and Derozan. The idea that a team can't win with Vuc, Austin reeves, DFS (a great defender), Lebron James and Luka Doncic, or him, Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Kuminga, come on man!

My personal choice would be to trade Collins and filler for Reid and play Reid at PF. I think he's a natural PF anyway, and Giddey, Coby, Matas, Reid, Vucevic looks damn good for a year till Vuc is off the books.

Most people seem to want to keep Collins and trade Vuc. Neither is a long term solution, both are expiring and both are having great seasons. there will be teams that want them, big men are hard to find. Changing my vote, I think Collins is the most likely to be traded, good thing he's raised his value. Bulls like Vuc, and Vuc likes the Bulls. Putting a guy like Reid next to him could do wonders. You guys think Collins or Vuc has the higher trade value now?

While I'd love you to be right. I don't see any team taking Vuc or Collins and be willing to send us nothing (i.e. 2nd that never conveys) in the offseason. The combination of teams who would want and could take on either guy at their salary is IMO the null set. Both of these dudes make about $20M. I don't think throwing all of our available 2nd rounders into the deal would get it done either. I'm reasonably confident that if we added POR 1st or Ayo, we could get something done (but again, probably not for pure space...we'd probably have to take other expirings back ... which defeats the purpose). Pretty much the entire league is cap constrained except BKN.

[Infinity2152]

I think you should prepare yourself to see Vuc back next season. I think LAL's needs changed dramatically once they traded AD for Luka. Without AD, Vuc adds to LA's horrible defensive issues. I think it is possible for GS to trade for Vuc, but GP3's contract expires and they'll need to add Hield to make the deal work, IIRC.

I fully expect to see either Vuc or Collins gone by the time the season starts. That's too much money and not enough minutes with Smith here. Without AD, Lakers have no real big and no money to get who they want. Teams with good defensive bigs aren't just letting them go, you have to take what's available. Same with the Warriors. Despite his defense, Vuc is probably the highest rated easily available center by people not in this forum. We've been talking about how difficult it would be to add Turner or Reid, who are they going to add? Lakers tried to add Mark Williams and failed. Both teams are still in win now mode, and Vuc is a win now player if you focus on his elite scoring, shooting and rebounding for position and not just his defense. Plus he's expiring, a $20 mill expiring is kind of a big deal in and of itself.

This Vuc defense is so overstated. Bulls were first in the East with a healthy Ball and Vucevic was on the court with Lavine, Patrick Williams and Derozan. The idea that a team can't win with Vuc, Austin reeves, DFS (a great defender), Lebron James and Luka Doncic, or him, Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Kuminga, come on man!

My personal choice would be to trade Collins and filler for Reid and play Reid at PF. I think he's a natural PF anyway, and Giddey, Coby, Matas, Reid, Vucevic looks damn good for a year till Vuc is off the books.

Most people seem to want to keep Collins and trade Vuc. Neither is a long term solution, both are expiring and both are having great seasons. there will be teams that want them, big men are hard to find. Changing my vote, I think Collins is the most likely to be traded, good thing he's raised his value. Bulls like Vuc, and Vuc likes the Bulls. Putting a guy like Reid next to him could do wonders. You guys think Collins or Vuc has the higher trade value now?

While I'd love you to be right. I don't see any team taking Vuc or Collins and be willing to send us nothing (i.e. 2nd that never conveys) in the offseason. The combination of teams who would want and could take on either guy at their salary is IMO the null set. Both of these dudes make about $20M. I don't think throwing all of our available 2nd rounders into the deal would get it done either. I'm reasonably confident that if we added POR 1st or Ayo, we could get something done (but again, probably not for pure space...we'd probably have to take other expirings back ... which defeats the purpose). Pretty much the entire league is cap constrained except BKN.

Agree it's going to be hard. But the Bulls have to at least try to move 1. No team besides Nets could take their entire contracts, I don't think, but several teams like Pistons and Jazz could facilitate trades and take players. We'll likely take salary back, but all salary isn't bad salary. Like swap Collins to a team with space for a $12 mill SF/PF and a second or two. Or a $18 mill deal, but a $8 mill player goes to another team. He's playing like s starting center.

I don't think taking expirings back would defeat the purpose. We basically have 3 centers, two medium expensive starter caliber plus Smith. Trade one, use that money to bolster another position, maybe grab a prospect or some seconds in the process. If it's an expiring useful SF and PF, that will help us more than 3 centers who need minutes. We can take a player downgrade if they're expiring and we get any assets.

People can throw dirt on Vuc's value all they want. The guy is putting up 19pts and 10 rebounds, at 40% from three this year. In under 32 minutes. Per 36, 21.2 pts, 11.4 rebounds, 3.9 assists, still 40% from three. 61% TS. With a usage of only 22. All theories that say replacing him with a 12 and 9 defensive center with no range, but who's athletic, could be wrong. The most dominant centers in the NBA today, Jokic, Embid, Karl Anthony Towns, VUCEVIC, none of them are rim runners. None of them are catching oops. Porzingas, Al Horford. Their teams win a lot of games when healthy. Better defenders of course, but offensively pretty similar. Unless you're getting Bam or Wemby, who's your top 10 rim running center? I feel sorry for Vucevic. He has to be the most under appreciated consistent 18-20 pts, 10-12 rebounds, extremely healthy player in the history of any franchise. Only player besides Coby to play over 2000 minutes this season.

[2weekswithpay]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

You can scheme however you want, you can't play 5 out with a non-shooter like Gafford. Nobody's going to guard him, and he's rarely driving from the three-point line. You end up with your big man trying to be a playmaker or jacking a horrible shot, most often.

Here's Reid catching oops, crossing guys and dunking them, dropping treys, versatile.

Watch on YouTube

Reid is a better player, but I mentioned rim protection, not everything else. They're almost the same size. Gafford is half an inch taller, and Reid's wing span is an inch longer.

Reid is a special player only on offense. Reid's rim protection numbers are nothing special. Only a -3.8% difference in opponents shooting in the paint against Reid. For Gafford, it's a -14.3%.

NBA teams play 5-out with non-shooting bigs all the time. If they're lob threats or setting screens, you can't ignore them.

[Infinity2152]

Reid's defense is overrated. Gafford's rim protection numbers are better by a decent margin.

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

You can scheme however you want, you can't play 5 out with a non-shooter like Gafford. Nobody's going to guard him, and he's rarely driving from the three-point line. You end up with your big man trying to be a playmaker or jacking a horrible shot, most often.

Here's Reid catching oops, crossing guys and dunking them, dropping treys, versatile.

Watch on YouTube

Reid is a better player, but I mentioned rim protection, not everything else. They're almost the same size. Gafford is half an inch taller, and Reid's wing span is an inch longer.

Reid is a special player only on offense. Reid's rim protection numbers are nothing special. Only a -3.8% difference in opponents shooting in the paint against Reid. For Gafford, it's a -14.3%.

NBA teams play 5-out with non-shooting bigs all the time. If they're lob threats or setting screens, you can't ignore them.

What I'm saying, what kind of centers are actually winning in the NBA? When you look at most of the top teams in the NBA, how many have great rim protectors? With all the switching that happens nowadays, centers are away from the rim a lot. What about man defense, which centers will be dealing with far more often? I said I think Reid is a good center who would be a GREAT power forward, rim protection is not a great strength him at center but would be good for a PF, imo. And teams can run 5 out with non-shooters all they want, when you're screening high, you're bringing two men to the defense and the big has to dive all the way to the basket. Not nearly as effective as having a big who can shoot or drive or set the screen and catch the lob or pick and pop, vs just pick and roll. Gafford worked when they had two guys who could draw constant double teams on the perimeter, Kyrie and Luka.

For some reason, none of the top centers outside Wemby are great rim protectors. Not Jokic, Kat, Sabonis, Embid, Sengun, pretty much only Bam. All of them shoot threes though, including Bam. Don't know what the problem is, it's certainly an upgrade for a younger, better player for not much more money. Vuc is getting $21 mill next year, Collins $18 mill. Reid's not perfect, but he's a great fit for our running style and we're not getting perfect for under $30 mill.

Wolves have maybe the best rim protector in the league in DPOY Gobert. He was abused in the playoffs on defense, teams just drew him out of the paint and forced him to guard in space.

[2weekswithpay]

Have you actually watched Reid much? Reid is a MUCH better defender in space than Gafford. Gafford's rim protection is better, granted. He's taller and much more limited offensively, that's pretty much his calling card.

Guess the point is you rarely get everything. Like I said, Reid is athletic, he's a lob threat if it's thrown to him. Reid is 6'9 playing center, so he's power forward sized, but strong and muscular. I'm actually surprised at the comments, Reid is almost the definition of the modern center today. Most centers who can't shoot are not highly valued nowadays. He's better than Gafford at pretty much EVERYTHING except shot blocking. He's had two seasons already with 2 blocks or more per 36, he's at least average at rim protection, probably above. Just not elite. I'm telling you, ignore the numbers anyway, the guy is strong, fast and active, he'd be better at rim protection and help defense than anything we've seen for years.

You can scheme however you want, you can't play 5 out with a non-shooter like Gafford. Nobody's going to guard him, and he's rarely driving from the three-point line. You end up with your big man trying to be a playmaker or jacking a horrible shot, most often.

Here's Reid catching oops, crossing guys and dunking them, dropping treys, versatile.

Watch on YouTube

Reid is a better player, but I mentioned rim protection, not everything else. They're almost the same size. Gafford is half an inch taller, and Reid's wing span is an inch longer.

Reid is a special player only on offense. Reid's rim protection numbers are nothing special. Only a -3.8% difference in opponents shooting in the paint against Reid. For Gafford, it's a -14.3%.

NBA teams play 5-out with non-shooting bigs all the time. If they're lob threats or setting screens, you can't ignore them.

What I'm saying, what kind of centers are actually winning in the NBA? When you look at most of the top teams in the NBA, how many have great rim protectors? With all the switching that happens nowadays, centers are away from the rim a lot. What about man defense, which centers will be dealing with far more often? I said I think Reid is a good center who would be a GREAT power forward, rim protection is not a great strength him at center but would be good for a PF, imo. And teams can run 5 out with non-shooters all they want, when you're screening high, you're bringing two men to the defense and the big has to dive all the way to the basket. Not nearly as effective as having a big who can shoot or drive or set the screen and catch the lob or pick and pop, vs just pick and roll.

For some reason, none of the top centers outside Wemby are great rim protectors. Not Jokic, Kat, Sabonis, Embid, Sengun, pretty much only Bam. All of them shoot threes though, including Bam. Don't know what the problem is, it's certainly an upgrade for a younger, better player for not much more money. Vuc is getting $21 mill next year, Collins $18 mill. Reid's not perfect, but he's a great fit for our running style and we're not getting perfect for under $30 mill.

The Celtics with KP. The Cavs with Mobley and Allen, can do both switch and protect the rim. OKC has Hartenstein and Chet. The Grizzles have Jaren Jackson. The Wolves have Gobert. The Bucks have Giannis and Lopez.

Looking at the 5 recent title winners, 3 of them had great rim protectors at the 5. Celtics KP (2024), Bucks Giannis/Lopez (2021), Lakers AD (2020).If you look at the runner-ups you have the Mavs Gafford/Lively (2024), Celtics Rob Williams (2023). In the last 5 finals, half of the teams had great/good rim protection. Last season, the only teams that didn't have a great/good rim protecting big in the second round were the Nuggets with Jokic and the Celtics because KP was out. Drop coverage is still used more than switching.

AD, Chet, Gobert, Allen, Zubac, and KP are all good centers who can protect the rim. Embiid can protect the rim as well if you ignore this season.

We had Drummond as a backup for two seasons, and the offense wasn't dramatically different while being just as effective. Vuc can shoot, drive, screen, pop/roll etc, yet was never a noticable upgrade over Drummond.

[TheSuzerain]

White for Eason make some sense as a structure?

[Infinity2152]

Reid is a better player, but I mentioned rim protection, not everything else. They're almost the same size. Gafford is half an inch taller, and Reid's wing span is an inch longer.

Reid is a special player only on offense. Reid's rim protection numbers are nothing special. Only a -3.8% difference in opponents shooting in the paint against Reid. For Gafford, it's a -14.3%.

NBA teams play 5-out with non-shooting bigs all the time. If they're lob threats or setting screens, you can't ignore them.

What I'm saying, what kind of centers are actually winning in the NBA? When you look at most of the top teams in the NBA, how many have great rim protectors? With all the switching that happens nowadays, centers are away from the rim a lot. What about man defense, which centers will be dealing with far more often? I said I think Reid is a good center who would be a GREAT power forward, rim protection is not a great strength him at center but would be good for a PF, imo. And teams can run 5 out with non-shooters all they want, when you're screening high, you're bringing two men to the defense and the big has to dive all the way to the basket. Not nearly as effective as having a big who can shoot or drive or set the screen and catch the lob or pick and pop, vs just pick and roll.

For some reason, none of the top centers outside Wemby are great rim protectors. Not Jokic, Kat, Sabonis, Embid, Sengun, pretty much only Bam. All of them shoot threes though, including Bam. Don't know what the problem is, it's certainly an upgrade for a younger, better player for not much more money. Vuc is getting $21 mill next year, Collins $18 mill. Reid's not perfect, but he's a great fit for our running style and we're not getting perfect for under $30 mill.

The Celtics with KP. The Cavs with Mobley and Allen, can do both switch and protect the rim. OKC has Hartenstein and Chet. The Grizzles have Jaren Jackson. The Wolves have Gobert. The Bucks have Giannis and Lopez.

Looking at the 5 recent title winners, 3 of them had great rim protectors at the 5. Celtics KP (2024), Bucks Giannis/Lopez (2021), Lakers AD (2020).If you look at the runner-ups you have the Mavs Gafford/Lively (2024), Celtics Rob Williams (2023). In the last 5 finals, half of the teams had great/good rim protection. Last season, the only teams that didn't have a great/good rim protecting big in the second round were the Nuggets with Jokic and the Celtics because KP was out. Drop coverage is still used more than switching.

AD, Chet, Gobert, Allen, Zubac, and KP are all good centers who can protect the rim. Embiid can protect the rim as well if you ignore this season.

We had Drummond as a backup for two seasons, and the offense wasn't dramatically different while being just as effective. Vuc can shoot, drive, screen, pop/roll etc, yet was never a noticable upgrade over Drummond.

Those teams you mentioned, notice something else? The winning ones were surrounded by dominant defensive players. Celtics had multiple great defenders around KP, OKC didn't even have Hartenstein when they made the playoffs but a lot of great defensive players. Lopez had Giannis, one of the great help defenders in the league, Jrue Holiday and Middleton for years. Wolves didn't have that, I watched Gobert get literally abused in the playoffs, they targeted him on pick and rolls. All Gafford and Lively have to do all game is play defense and catch lobs, they contribute little else. Horford played almost 27 minutes a night last year, 28 this year. Porzingas played 30, 29 this year. They had two of the best post defenders plus two guys who just made All-Defense and Jaylen Brown who could have. Porzingas might be the fifth best defensive player on that team.

Grizzlies have that guy without all the great help and they're going nowhere. Allen has Mobley plus two All-Star guards. AD had Lebron at PF. Of course teams with two good defensive bigs are better than teams with one or none.

Mav had Kyrie and Luka, you could have replaced Gafford with just about anybody and they win a ton of games. He played 22 mins/gm for them last year, the same this year. That's what they think of him as their center. Bet Vucevic wouldn't have been getting 22 mins for two years.

[Chi town]

Jalen Smith for Naz Reid?

[2weekswithpay]

What I'm saying, what kind of centers are actually winning in the NBA? When you look at most of the top teams in the NBA, how many have great rim protectors? With all the switching that happens nowadays, centers are away from the rim a lot. What about man defense, which centers will be dealing with far more often? I said I think Reid is a good center who would be a GREAT power forward, rim protection is not a great strength him at center but would be good for a PF, imo. And teams can run 5 out with non-shooters all they want, when you're screening high, you're bringing two men to the defense and the big has to dive all the way to the basket. Not nearly as effective as having a big who can shoot or drive or set the screen and catch the lob or pick and pop, vs just pick and roll.

For some reason, none of the top centers outside Wemby are great rim protectors. Not Jokic, Kat, Sabonis, Embid, Sengun, pretty much only Bam. All of them shoot threes though, including Bam. Don't know what the problem is, it's certainly an upgrade for a younger, better player for not much more money. Vuc is getting $21 mill next year, Collins $18 mill. Reid's not perfect, but he's a great fit for our running style and we're not getting perfect for under $30 mill.

The Celtics with KP. The Cavs with Mobley and Allen, can do both switch and protect the rim. OKC has Hartenstein and Chet. The Grizzles have Jaren Jackson. The Wolves have Gobert. The Bucks have Giannis and Lopez.

Looking at the 5 recent title winners, 3 of them had great rim protectors at the 5. Celtics KP (2024), Bucks Giannis/Lopez (2021), Lakers AD (2020).If you look at the runner-ups you have the Mavs Gafford/Lively (2024), Celtics Rob Williams (2023). In the last 5 finals, half of the teams had great/good rim protection. Last season, the only teams that didn't have a great/good rim protecting big in the second round were the Nuggets with Jokic and the Celtics because KP was out. Drop coverage is still used more than switching.

AD, Chet, Gobert, Allen, Zubac, and KP are all good centers who can protect the rim. Embiid can protect the rim as well if you ignore this season.

We had Drummond as a backup for two seasons, and the offense wasn't dramatically different while being just as effective. Vuc can shoot, drive, screen, pop/roll etc, yet was never a noticable upgrade over Drummond.

Those team you mentioned, notice something else? They all were surrounded by dominant defensive players. Celtics had multiple great defenders around KP, OKC didn't even have Hartenstein when they made the playoffs but a lot of great defensive players. Lopez had Giannis, one of the great help defenders in the league, Jrue Holiday and Middleton for years. I watched Gobert get literally abused in the playoffs, they targeted him on pick and rolls. All gafford and Lively have to do all game is play defense and catch lobs, they contribute little else. Horford played almost 27 minutes a night last year, 28 this year. Porzingas played 30, 29 this year. They had two of the best post defenders plus two guys who just made All-Defense and Jaylen Brown who could have.

Grizzlies have that guy without all the great help and they're going nowhere.

Not really. These are good teams, and they usually have more than one capable player on defense. Rarely do good teams rely on one player to carry their defense like the Gobert/Mitchell Jazz teams. Bam was the starting 5 in two finals, he also was surrounded by good defenders as a switch big. When Lopez missed most of the 2021-22 season, the Bucks' defense dropped to 14th, and Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday all played 60+ games. You asked which top teams have great rim protection, and the answer is at least half of them with 3 recent title winners. Jokic was the only big in the finals who wasn't surrounded by good defensive players.

Teams good enough to make the finals tend to have great players.

[Infinity2152]

Jalen Smith for Naz Reid?

Some combination of this would actually be good for both sides. Jalen Smith gives them a young, good, far cheaper backup. We'd need to add another player probably, so the Wolves get two players for a player they really can't afford anyway. Was thinking we'd have to trade Vuc or Collins if we get Reid, but that might actually better. Vuc will be 36 summer 2026, he's looking at backup contract probably. Collins and Vuc money only hurt us for one season. Starters Giddey, White, Matas, Reid, Vuc. Bench Ball, Ayo, Huerter, Rookie, Williams, Collins. Collins and Vuc both come off in the summer, could probably re-sign either to a team friendly deal as backup if they're not traded by midseason. Or get that rim protector to put beside Reid. What are the objections to Reid at PF?

Maybe send Huerter along with Smith for Reid and one of their cheap players. Gives an over the cap team a lot more depth. Huerter's expiring and looking great, maybe we finally sell high.

[Infinity2152]

The Celtics with KP. The Cavs with Mobley and Allen, can do both switch and protect the rim. OKC has Hartenstein and Chet. The Grizzles have Jaren Jackson. The Wolves have Gobert. The Bucks have Giannis and Lopez.

Looking at the 5 recent title winners, 3 of them had great rim protectors at the 5. Celtics KP (2024), Bucks Giannis/Lopez (2021), Lakers AD (2020).If you look at the runner-ups you have the Mavs Gafford/Lively (2024), Celtics Rob Williams (2023). In the last 5 finals, half of the teams had great/good rim protection. Last season, the only teams that didn't have a great/good rim protecting big in the second round were the Nuggets with Jokic and the Celtics because KP was out. Drop coverage is still used more than switching.

AD, Chet, Gobert, Allen, Zubac, and KP are all good centers who can protect the rim. Embiid can protect the rim as well if you ignore this season.

We had Drummond as a backup for two seasons, and the offense wasn't dramatically different while being just as effective. Vuc can shoot, drive, screen, pop/roll etc, yet was never a noticable upgrade over Drummond.

Those team you mentioned, notice something else? They all were surrounded by dominant defensive players. Celtics had multiple great defenders around KP, OKC didn't even have Hartenstein when they made the playoffs but a lot of great defensive players. Lopez had Giannis, one of the great help defenders in the league, Jrue Holiday and Middleton for years. I watched Gobert get literally abused in the playoffs, they targeted him on pick and rolls. All gafford and Lively have to do all game is play defense and catch lobs, they contribute little else. Horford played almost 27 minutes a night last year, 28 this year. Porzingas played 30, 29 this year. They had two of the best post defenders plus two guys who just made All-Defense and Jaylen Brown who could have.

Grizzlies have that guy without all the great help and they're going nowhere.

Not really. These are good teams, and they usually have more than one capable player on defense. Rarely do good teams rely on one player to carry their defense like the Gobert/Mitchell Jazz teams. Bam was the starting 5 in two finals, he also was surrounded by good defenders as a switch big. When Lopez missed most of the 2021-22 season, the Bucks' defense dropped to 14th, and Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday all played 60+ games. You asked which top teams have great rim protection, and the answer is at least half of them with 3 recent title winners. Jokic was the only big in the finals who wasn't surrounded by good defensive players.

Teams good enough to make the finals tend to have great players.

Lopez is playing now, where's their defense ranked? And he shoots a ton of three and is slow and terrible at guarding in space, he's nothing like the athletic lob threat we're talking about. Defensive impact of losing Holiday easily greater than Lopez. Impact of losing Giannis far greater. You're right, Bam's playing with Jimmy Butler. With most of these guys you're talking about, they're the third or fourth most important person on their team, some not even that. Of course rim protection has some importance, but it doesn't supersede three-point shooting. If I let you score two sometimes, then I score three, I'm okay with that. When the rest of the team is great on defense, of course the center's rim protection looks great, he's probably blocking shots off ball a lot and guys are already taking difficult shots.

Lopez would not have looked like that playing with Coby, Zach, and Derozan. When we're talking about rim protection, exactly what are we talking about? Stopping his man from scoring or stopping everybody else's man from scoring at the rim? To stop everybody else's man, you need a lot of help.

Those teams don't just have good rim protection, they have all defensive players all around. Every one of them is playing with guys with more All defense teams than them. So yeah, if you have Tatum, Brown, White, Holiday, Horford, you can win with a defensive Porzingas, even though he's a 20 point scorer. If you have SGA, Jalen Williams, Dort, Caruso, Holgrem, you can win with a Hartenstein. If you have a Jimmy Buter and Tyler Herro, you can win with Bam, even though he's a scorer too. You have Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, you can get by with Jarret Allen defending averaging under 14 and zero range. It's really hard to say those guys post defense is the key to those teams winning. Those teams would make a replacement level player look great. AD's a top 5 two-way player when healthy, he adds a lot more than post defense, as does Porzingas and Bam. Yet Jokic and Embid have been the two top ranked centers for years until Wemby hit the scene. Sengun and Sabonis coming on strong.

[2weekswithpay]

Those team you mentioned, notice something else? They all were surrounded by dominant defensive players. Celtics had multiple great defenders around KP, OKC didn't even have Hartenstein when they made the playoffs but a lot of great defensive players. Lopez had Giannis, one of the great help defenders in the league, Jrue Holiday and Middleton for years. I watched Gobert get literally abused in the playoffs, they targeted him on pick and rolls. All gafford and Lively have to do all game is play defense and catch lobs, they contribute little else. Horford played almost 27 minutes a night last year, 28 this year. Porzingas played 30, 29 this year. They had two of the best post defenders plus two guys who just made All-Defense and Jaylen Brown who could have.

Grizzlies have that guy without all the great help and they're going nowhere.

Not really. These are good teams, and they usually have more than one capable player on defense. Rarely do good teams rely on one player to carry their defense like the Gobert/Mitchell Jazz teams. Bam was the starting 5 in two finals, he also was surrounded by good defenders as a switch big. When Lopez missed most of the 2021-22 season, the Bucks' defense dropped to 14th, and Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday all played 60+ games. You asked which top teams have great rim protection, and the answer is at least half of them with 3 recent title winners. Jokic was the only big in the finals who wasn't surrounded by good defensive players.

Teams good enough to make the finals tend to have great players.

Lopez is playing now, where's their defense ranked? And he shoots a ton of three and is slow and terrible at guarding in space, he's nothing like the athletic lob threat we're talking about. Defensive impact of losing Holiday easily greater than Lopez. Impact of losing Giannis far greater. You're right, Bam's playing with Jimmy Butler. With most of these guys you're talking about, they're the third or fourth most important person on their team, some not even that. Of course rim protection has some importance, but it doesn't supersede three-point shooting. If I let you score two sometimes, then I score three, I'm okay with that. When the rest of the team is great on defense, of course the center's rim protection looks great, he's probably blocking shots off ball a lot and guys are already taking difficult shots.

Lopez would not have looked like that playing with Coby, Zach, and Derozan. When we're talking about rim protection, exactly what are we talking about? Stopping his man from scoring or stopping everybody else's man from scoring at the rim? To stop everybody else's man, you need a lot of help.

Those teams don't just have good rim protection, they have all defensive players all around. Every one of them is playing with guys with more All defense teams than them. So yeah, if you have Tatum, Brown, White, Holiday, Horford, you can win with a defensive Porzingas, even though he's a 20 point scorer. If you have SGA, Jalen Williams, Dort, Caruso, Holgrem, you can win with a Hartenstein. If you have a Jimmy Buter and Tyler Herro, you can win with Bam, even though he's a scorer too. You have Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, you can get by with Jarret Allen defending averaging under 14 and zero range. It's really hard to say those guys post defense is the key to those teams winning. Those teams would make a replacement level player look great. AD's a top 5 two-way player when healthy, he adds a lot more than post defense, as does Porzingas and Bam. Yet Jokic and Embid have been the two top ranked centers for years until Wemby hit the scene. Sengun and Sabonis coming on strong.

The Bucks got old and traded most of their defenders. Their defense right now is still better than it was back in 2021 when Lopez missed most of the season. This season, the Bucks are 1.2 points better on defense compared to the league average, in 2021, they were 0.2 points better. The Bucks defense is better without Holiday than when they lost Lopez for a season. They aren't contenders, but that's a different story. Lopez shooting 3s is irrelevant; you asked for rim protectors on top teams only to nitpick each one. The most efficient shot in basketball is still shots at the rim. 3pt shots are not more valuable than layups or dunks.

Lopez would have been a massive upgrade over Vuc.

Yeah, good teams have good defenders and good players throughout the roster. This isn't noteworthy. All of these contenders still view rim protection as something necessary to have.