NBA Trade Thread #12

[WesPeace]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

[sco]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

I agree with these points. Can't see Lopez not staying in MIL until he retires. Reid would be fine if we could sign him in the MLE range, maybe a couple bucks above that but IIRC he has a PO for that amount, and the main reason he wouldn't get more is that so many teams are above the cap. I think some team may offer $20M+. I think we won't go that direction. I don't see us being able to sign any FA for more than MLE money, and even that would require our ability to shed a bunch of salary (that I can't see including Vuc because there are so few teams that both have cap space and would want Vuc) AND let Jones walk.

I think our next trade window will be at the deadline, dumping a bunch of our expirings plus assets for a good player from a bad team.

[sco]

White for Eason make some sense as a structure?

I think it makes sense...Eason is a real difference maker, but I think we're stuck with Coby, but I wonder if a Ball + Por pick for Eason type deal might get it done?

[sco]

Anyone think we could package Ayo and Carter for a future, lotto protected 1st? Can't do a draft night deal and include Carter because he likely won't have opted in yet.

[NecessaryEvil]

Read on Twitter

[2weekswithpay]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

Lopez isn't an option, but Reid is a questionable fit. The offensive skill set is appealing, but the downside is that he has his issues defensively. The Wolves don't see Reid as a starter at the 5 for a reason. We'd have to pay Reid around 20M AAV and send the Wolves assets in a sign and trade.

[Infinity2152]

Not really. These are good teams, and they usually have more than one capable player on defense. Rarely do good teams rely on one player to carry their defense like the Gobert/Mitchell Jazz teams. Bam was the starting 5 in two finals, he also was surrounded by good defenders as a switch big. When Lopez missed most of the 2021-22 season, the Bucks' defense dropped to 14th, and Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday all played 60+ games. You asked which top teams have great rim protection, and the answer is at least half of them with 3 recent title winners. Jokic was the only big in the finals who wasn't surrounded by good defensive players.

Teams good enough to make the finals tend to have great players.

Lopez is playing now, where's their defense ranked? And he shoots a ton of three and is slow and terrible at guarding in space, he's nothing like the athletic lob threat we're talking about. Defensive impact of losing Holiday easily greater than Lopez. Impact of losing Giannis far greater. You're right, Bam's playing with Jimmy Butler. With most of these guys you're talking about, they're the third or fourth most important person on their team, some not even that. Of course rim protection has some importance, but it doesn't supersede three-point shooting. If I let you score two sometimes, then I score three, I'm okay with that. When the rest of the team is great on defense, of course the center's rim protection looks great, he's probably blocking shots off ball a lot and guys are already taking difficult shots.

Lopez would not have looked like that playing with Coby, Zach, and Derozan. When we're talking about rim protection, exactly what are we talking about? Stopping his man from scoring or stopping everybody else's man from scoring at the rim? To stop everybody else's man, you need a lot of help.

Those teams don't just have good rim protection, they have all defensive players all around. Every one of them is playing with guys with more All defense teams than them. So yeah, if you have Tatum, Brown, White, Holiday, Horford, you can win with a defensive Porzingas, even though he's a 20 point scorer. If you have SGA, Jalen Williams, Dort, Caruso, Holgrem, you can win with a Hartenstein. If you have a Jimmy Buter and Tyler Herro, you can win with Bam, even though he's a scorer too. You have Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, you can get by with Jarret Allen defending averaging under 14 and zero range. It's really hard to say those guys post defense is the key to those teams winning. Those teams would make a replacement level player look great. AD's a top 5 two-way player when healthy, he adds a lot more than post defense, as does Porzingas and Bam. Yet Jokic and Embid have been the two top ranked centers for years until Wemby hit the scene. Sengun and Sabonis coming on strong.

The Bucks got old and traded most of their defenders. Their defense right now is still better than it was back in 2021 when Lopez missed most of the season. This season, the Bucks are 1.2 points better on defense compared to the league average, in 2021, they were 0.2 points better. The Bucks defense is better without Holiday than when they lost Lopez for a season. They aren't contenders, but that's a different story. Lopez shooting 3s is irrelevant; you asked for rim protectors on top teams only to nitpick each one. The most efficient shot in basketball is still shots at the rim. 3pt shots are not more valuable than layups or dunks.

Lopez would have been a massive upgrade over Vuc.

Yeah, good teams have good defenders and good players throughout the roster. This isn't noteworthy. All of these contenders still view rim protection as something necessary to have.

Let's try this again. The teams that have won most of the championships for the last 10 years or so have not relied on great rim protectors. I already said rim protection is important, but it doesn't supercede 3 pt shooting. Should I say it again? You can keep picking these teams that fail to win, but the winningest teams have been any team with Lebron and a bunch of three point shooters, or Steph with a bunch of shooters. Or Jokic with a bunch of shooters. Bucks won one with Giannis, again the most versatile two way player maybe in history. On not one of those teams was the center even a top 3 player on their own team. Rim protection is relative, funny the Warriors won for years with Draymond Green. He's a good post defender, but he's not a rim protector. AD's a power forward, he doesn't even want to play center. Porzingas prefers power forward. The center doesn't have to be the only rim protector.

Bucks with and without Lopez last 5 years since you want to cherry pick 2021:
2020-2021 46-26 Lopez played 70 games
2021-2022 51-31 Lopez played 13 games
2022-2023 58-24 Lopez played 78 games The year you keep pointing out
2023-2024 49-33 Lopez played 79 games Worse than 2021 record
2024-2025 40-34 Lopez 73/73 games worse than 2021-2022

[sco]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

Lopez isn't an option, but Reid is a questionable fit. The offensive skill set is appealing, but the downside is that he has his issues defensively. The Wolves don't see Reid as a starter at the 5 for a reason. We'd have to pay Reid around 20M AAV and send the Wolves assets in a sign and trade.

How much should Reid get as a FA? I think $20-$25M feels right. I'm just wanting BKN to go after him as a guy to pair with Claxton instead of Giddey or Jones.

[Infinity2152]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

Lopez isn't an option, but Reid is a questionable fit. The offensive skill set is appealing, but the downside is that he has his issues defensively. The Wolves don't see Reid as a starter at the 5 for a reason. We'd have to pay Reid around 20M AAV and send the Wolves assets in a sign and trade.

The Wolves have an All World defender starting at center they're paying a ton of money. There's absolutely no way Gobert goes to the bench for anybody. That's why he can't be the starter at the 5, lmao, not because the Wolves don't believe in him. Rumored they want to bring him back badly, wonder why? We're already paying 2 worse centers around $20 mill AAV and Reid is certainly a better defender than both.

And again, Reid should be playing PF. He's a good center who would be a great PF. Wolves had KAT and now Julius Randle, no starting spot available.
Everybody criticizing Reid's post defense, put who you want to see at center, how much they cost and why. Easiest thing in the world is to point out problems with no solutions. We already had Gafford, there's a reason centers like him sign for 3 yrs/$40 mill and guys like Vuc get much more. I'd love to see which under $20 mill second contract center is guaranteed to lead to more wins than Reid. Because all I'm concerned about is wins, which is overall impact, not just focusing on one area.

Yes, paint defense is important. Easiest baskets are at the rim. It's not the end-all be-all of basketball. His career PER is 16.9. He played less than 20 minutes a game 4 of his 6 years, behind the best defensive center in basketball. Career average 1.6 blocks, 1.1 steals per 36. Better defender than maybe every player on the team outside of Ball, we need to get rid of the whole team then.

[jump]

If anyone watched Minnesota's series victory over Denver last year, you would have seen Reid swarming all over Jokic, totally disrupting his game. I don't know where the talk is coming from that Reid has questionable defense. He was a defensive star in that series. He should have no defensive issues in the future. I'd love to see him on the Bulls.

[sco]

I tried the capulator yesterday, but some things didn't seem to be working - if anyone knows what's going on there, let me know.

That said, if we sign Giddey for $30M and Jones to $10M we looked to be in the tax by $4M (but I'm not at all sure of that). If true, we'd need to be able to shed AT LEAST 2 of Vuc, Huerter, Collins and Carter AND TAKE NO SALARY BACK to make even a half-hearted attempt at Reid. If any team wanted to go over $20M, we have no shot. I think Minny will try to keep him, and as such, I doubt a S&T will work in this situation. (IMO Minny wants to get rid of Randle and move Reid to the 4 anyway, so maybe they can dump Randle for space?).

Now it isn't hard to argue pursuing Reid over Jones, but I feel like Jones is a bird in the hand, and AK will do his best to keep him.

[2weekswithpay]

If anyone watched Minnesota's series victory over Denver last year, you would have seen Reid swarming all over Jokic, totally disrupting his game. I don't know where the talk is coming from that Reid has questionable defense. He was a defensive star in that series. He should have no defensive issues in the future. I'd love to see him on the Bulls.

Read on Twitter

The Wolves have a favorable matchup with the Nuggets. Reid and Kat both had the best stretches of defense in their career, but one series is a small sample. The same Wolves team was torched by the Mavs. Kat still has issues defensively, the same with Reid. If someone expects Reid to play the 5 full time you're going to have a similar experience as the Knicks with Kat this season.

[sco]

Was looking for possible trade partners for Vuc and I can't see any team looking to take on his contract in a deal. Needwise, I think you could really only say GS, LAL have a real need at C, maybe ORL, but Vuc isn't an upgrade. Maybe with FA, somehow IND or MIL find they have a need. I don't think that any of those teams have the space to make a deal, so unless we are giving up a positive asset, I think he's here til the deadline.

Given that he might actually have value as a big expiring deal at that point, I doubt they buy him out.

[Dan Z]

White for Eason make some sense as a structure?

I think it makes sense...Eason is a real difference maker, but I think we're stuck with Coby, but I wonder if a Ball + Por pick for Eason type deal might get it done?

If the Bulls trade Coby then there goes the momentum the team has recently had. They'll need someone to score the ball next year.

However, I'm not against trading him, but not for Eason.

Ball plus the Portland pick probably isn't enough for Houston to be interested. They don't really need picks and can't rely on Balls (who can?).

[WesPeace]

Was looking for possible trade partners for Vuc and I can't see any team looking to take on his contract in a deal. Needwise, I think you could really only say GS, LAL have a real need at C, maybe ORL, but Vuc isn't an upgrade. Maybe with FA, somehow IND or MIL find they have a need. I don't think that any of those teams have the space to make a deal, so unless we are giving up a positive asset, I think he's here til the deadline.

Given that he might actually have value as a big expiring deal at that point, I doubt they buy him out.

Yeah,market for Vooch will be small, very limited.. if any market at all?!

[2weekswithpay]

Let's try this again. The teams that have won most of the championships for the last 10 years or so have not relied on great rim protectors. I already said rim protection is important, but it doesn't supercede 3 pt shooting. Should I say it again? You can keep picking these teams that fail to win, but the winningest teams have been any team with Lebron and a bunch of three point shooters, or Steph with a bunch of shooters. Or Jokic with a bunch of shooters. Bucks won one with Giannis, again the most versatile two way player maybe in history. On not one of those teams was the center even a top 3 player on their own team. Rim protection is relative, funny the Warriors won for years with Draymond Green. He's a good post defender, but he's not a rim protector. AD's a power forward, he doesn't even want to play center. Porzingas prefers power forward. The center doesn't have to be the only rim protector.

Bucks with and without Lopez last 5 years since you want to cherry pick 2021:
2020-2021 46-26 Lopez played 70 games
2021-2022 51-31 Lopez played 13 games
2022-2023 58-24 Lopez played 78 games The year you keep pointing out
2023-2024 49-33 Lopez played 79 games Worse than 2021 record
2024-2025 40-34 Lopez 73/73 games worse than 2021-2022

Let's try this again. The teams that have won most of the championships for the last 10 years or so have not relied on great rim protectors.

Moving goal posts again. First, you asked for what current top teams have great rim protectors. Since it was half the teams, you've decided to go back 10 years and picked only the teams that won the title. Not once have I mentioned that rim protection has to come from a center. Giannis, Mobley, and Jaren Jackson are 3 great rim protectors I mentioned, and these guys are not centers.

I didn't bring him up, but Draymond is a good/great rim protector. -8.8 on shots defender in the paint this season.

Your words. Defensive Impact

Defensive impact of losing Holiday easily greater than Lopez.

This season, the Bucks have a defensive rating of 113.3, which is 1.2 points better than the league average.

In 2021 the season Lopez barely played they had a defensive rating of 111.8, which was 0.2 points better than the league average.

I'm not seeing a clearly greater impact on defense. Bringing up the Bucks record when both players were on the team doesn't make your statement correct.

[2weekswithpay]

Lopez shouldn't be an option for Bulls at all. We need to keep moving forward with younger squad. Reid would be great replacement for Vucevic, but he could cost a lot in FA, maybe out of our range.

Lopez isn't an option, but Reid is a questionable fit. The offensive skill set is appealing, but the downside is that he has his issues defensively. The Wolves don't see Reid as a starter at the 5 for a reason. We'd have to pay Reid around 20M AAV and send the Wolves assets in a sign and trade.

The Wolves have an All World defender starting at center they're paying a ton of money. There's absolutely no way Gobert goes to the bench for anybody. That's why he can't be the starter at the 5, lmao, not because the Wolves don't believe in him. Rumored they want to bring him back badly, wonder why? We're already paying 2 worse centers around $20 mill AAV and Reid is certainly a better defender than both.

And again, Reid should be playing PF. He's a good center who would be a great PF. Wolves had KAT and now Julius Randle, no starting spot available.
Everybody criticizing Reid's post defense, put who you want to see at center, how much they cost and why. Easiest thing in the world is to point out problems with no solutions. We already had Gafford, there's a reason centers like him sign for 3 yrs/$40 mill and guys like Vuc get much more. I'd love to see which under $20 mill second contract center is guaranteed to lead to more wins than Reid. Because all I'm concerned about is wins, which is overall impact, not just focusing on one area.

Yes, paint defense is important. Easiest baskets are at the rim. It's not the end-all be-all of basketball. His career PER is 16.9. He played less than 20 minutes a game 4 of his 6 years, behind the best defensive center in basketball. Career average 1.6 blocks, 1.1 steals per 36. Better defender than maybe every player on the team outside of Ball, we need to get rid of the whole team then.

The Wolves gave Gobert a 3 year extension. If they were confident in Reid's ability to defend at the 5, letting Gobert walk in free agency would be an obvious decision. They want to cut spending anyway. Neither Vuc or Collins should be in this team's future plans right now. These two should be off the team in another season, Reid is a 4-5 year investment.

I didn't say anything about his post defense. Hartenstien, Gafford, and Mitchell Robinson are all potential free agents in 2026. Vuc has never gotten out of the second round and has held this team back for 4 seasons. Letting Gafford walk for nothing was one of the worst decisions made in the AK era.

The Bulls give up the 5th most shots at the rim this season and we aren't great at altering shots at the rim. I simply am not optimistic about using assets to pair Coby and Giddey with an undersized center.

[Infinity2152]

I tried the capulator yesterday, but some things didn't seem to be working - if anyone knows what's going on there, let me know.

That said, if we sign Giddey for $30M and Jones to $10M we looked to be in the tax by $4M (but I'm not at all sure of that). If true, we'd need to be able to shed AT LEAST 2 of Vuc, Huerter, Collins and Carter AND TAKE NO SALARY BACK to make even a half-hearted attempt at Reid. If any team wanted to go over $20M, we have no shot. I think Minny will try to keep him, and as such, I doubt a S&T will work in this situation. (IMO Minny wants to get rid of Randle and move Reid to the 4 anyway, so maybe they can dump Randle for space?).

Now it isn't hard to argue pursuing Reid over Jones, but I feel like Jones is a bird in the hand, and AK will do his best to keep him.

This scenario assumes we keep three good-very good centers in addition to trying to sign Reid. Vuc makes $21 mill, Collins $18 mill, Smith $9 mill. Yes' it would be crazy to go after Reid while keeping all three, but I don't think anybody's suggesting that. Don't know why you think they'd prefer Reid to Randle when they just traded KAT to get Randle. That's basically trading KAT for an expiring and Divencenzo, lol. They had Reid for years when they made that trade. If they planned to start Reid, they could have easily traded KAT for non power forward players. Randle is averaging 19 pts, 7 rebounds and 5 assists with the Wolves in 32 minutes, just saying.

Also assumes Giddey signs before Reid, Giddey's cap hold is $25 mill not $30, I think. Almost no team could offer Reid more than $20 mill without doing exactly what we have to do, shed cap. Nets have Claxton and Cam Johnson, Jazz have Kessler and Collins, who else is there? Maybe the Pistons, but there's not much money out there. Reid was in a fight with the Pistons Sunday. Carter has a $6.8 mill contract he may waive. Is Dalen Terry's $5.4 mill a team option?

As for Minny not wanting to do a sign and trade, they'll be in the tax as soon as Randle opts in with 8 players. Few teams have enough money to sign him this year, he'd be crazy to enter free agency this summer instead of 2026. How would dumping Randle be any easier than moving Reid, or Vuc or Collins for that matter? Teams can only spend irresponsibly for so long, that money needs to go to other positions. If Minny REALLY wants to keep him, they probably can but it will cost a lot. At least double whatever his actual new salary ends up being, as a repeating tax team.

Ran some numbers, I have the Bulls around $128 mill, not counting Jones, Carter, Terry and Giddey's cap hold. Going to assume the purpose of moving Zach was to clear cap, so have to hope at least 1 big contract between Huerter, Collins or Vucevic is moved. You're right it would be tough to make him a clean FA offer without a sign and trade, but we've done deals with Minny before. Who knows if they're even willing to go to $20 mill AAV, $17-$18 mill might do it. Also assuming if it's a sign and trade, they're getting players they want, it's not like they're losing him for nothing. Huerter, 6'7" shooter that's lighting it up right now could be of interest running next to Edwards.

Reid acquisition would be difficult, but not impossible.

[Dez]

Anyone think we could package Ayo and Carter for a future, lotto protected 1st? Can't do a draft night deal and include Carter because he likely won't have opted in yet.

Could probably get AD for that if they talk to Nico Harrison.

[Infinity2152]

Is it unthinkable that Carter could opt out? He's only 29, and has been in the league long enough for teams to not just use his performance on the Bulls as his baseline. He's on a team with like 6 point guards, lol. Not like he's getting $20 mill, he might match or come close to $6 mill AAV with a longer contract. He's healthy now, who knows what happens if he opts in, stays here and gets injured.

And he could, you know, actually want to be on a team where he can get some playing time. This year was probably pretty bad for him as a player, never getting on the court while guys like Dalen Terry and Philips are getting minutes. He could be wrong, but I'm sure in his mind he's worth at least what the Bulls paid him. Doubt he thinks he's a worse player than a year or two ago. He could be looking at two more contracts at his age, every year he doesn't play hurts his future money.