Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[tsherkin]

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth.

Is there?

4 years in with limited growth, my belief in Scottie's ability to improve has largely cratered.

I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level.

Has he, though? Middies don't take you to the next level, they're just AN option. If you're good enough at them and have other weapons as well.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Very good defender. He isn't actually "very good" at anything else. He's a decent playmaker, a crap scorer and an okay rebounder (better when considered as a wing than as a PF, of course).

He isn't a C+S shoot guy. He didn't do particularly well when his responsibility level was basically transition opportunities and other spoon-fed shots. I don't process where your optimism is coming from. He's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in a quarter century, and you're talking about things that he didn't do well even before now. He lacks elite athleticism. He lacks shooting ability. He lacks above-average finishing in close and the ability to get all the way to the rim on a regular basis.

What is it more specifically that you think is going to change compared to the past 4 years which will lend him sufficient value? If we'd kept OG, we'd have a better player than Barnes is right now, albeit with some health issues. Though Barnes hasn't exactly been extremely durable either.

[Tha Cynic]

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth.

Is there?

4 years in with limited growth, my belief in Scottie's ability to improve has largely cratered.

I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level.

Has he, though? Middies don't take you to the next level, they're just AN option. If you're good enough at them and have other weapons as well.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Very good defender. He isn't actually "very good" at anything else. He's a decent playmaker, a crap scorer and an okay rebounder (better when considered as a wing than as a PF, of course).

He isn't a C+S shoot guy. He didn't do particularly well when his responsibility level was basically transition opportunities and other spoon-fed shots. I don't process where your optimism is coming from. He's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in a quarter century, and you're talking about things that he didn't do well even before now. He lacks elite athleticism. He lacks shooting ability. He lacks above-average finishing in close and the ability to get all the way to the rim on a regular basis.

What is it more specifically that you think is going to change compared to the past 4 years which will lend him sufficient value? If we'd kept OG, we'd have a better player than Barnes is right now, albeit with some health issues. Though Barnes hasn't exactly been extremely durable either.

Put simply, I watched Derozan and Siakam grown under this same organization. The organization did not try to bottle them up into something when it didn’t click right away.

There is absolutely a clear indication that Siakam did not take a linear path. His efficiency suddenly jumped in 2019 playing beside a Leonard on a stacked team and then dropped when he became the team’s #1 guy and again after Lowry was traded. I don’t want to make exact comparisons but it’s the idea of how progression works and there is clear indication that a guy like Siakam stagnated for years and was also below league efficiency for the majority of his career here. When he became a more impactful offensive, player he even had years as a negative defensive player. So far Barnes has shown more interest in defense than offense. He’s a different type of player than Siakam, and I don’t think that’s the wrong approach either.

When you take a player and use him as a role player for 3 years and then thrust him into the role as a primary offensive player, I expect it to not click right away, especially a guy who was raw to begin with. I trust that you can have a dip and even a stagnation at times before it suddenly clicks. We have seen proof of this if we take a step back and look at it as a whole.

It’s a differing view and it could turn out like you said - I hope not, but that’s the fun of it! I probably have a less mathematical view on this, but even the math shows this depending on what we want to use. There are factors to this that have to be looked at in each individual situation.

[Merit]

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth.

Is there?

4 years in with limited growth, my belief in Scottie's ability to improve has largely cratered.

I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level.

Has he, though? Middies don't take you to the next level, they're just AN option. If you're good enough at them and have other weapons as well.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Very good defender. He isn't actually "very good" at anything else. He's a decent playmaker, a crap scorer and an okay rebounder (better when considered as a wing than as a PF, of course).

He isn't a C+S shoot guy. He didn't do particularly well when his responsibility level was basically transition opportunities and other spoon-fed shots. I don't process where your optimism is coming from. He's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in a quarter century, and you're talking about things that he didn't do well even before now. He lacks elite athleticism. He lacks shooting ability. He lacks above-average finishing in close and the ability to get all the way to the rim on a regular basis.

What is it more specifically that you think is going to change compared to the past 4 years which will lend him sufficient value? If we'd kept OG, we'd have a better player than Barnes is right now, albeit with some health issues. Though Barnes hasn't exactly been extremely durable either.

How do you explain the pattern below?

2021-22

Usage 19.0
OWS 3.7
DWS 2.9
WS 6.6

Rookie of the year on a playoff team. Trying to win.

2022-23
Usage 20.3
OWS 2.3
DWS 2.7
WS 5.0

Fred leaves. Jak arrives.

2023-24

USG 24.8
OWS 2.3
DWS 2.0
WS 4.3

All star in a tank year. Pascal and OG leave, massive team shakeup.

2024-25

USG 26.8
OWS 0.7 (This one sticks out. What’s your opinion as to why?)
DWS 2.7
WS 3.4

The pattern appears to be an increased usage rate, slightly decreasing efficiency, consistency defensively. The exception is this year in terms of offense. How do you explain a significant drop offensively from career norms this year? Also, how do you explain the significant difference between his rookie year offensively and this year?

[tsherkin]

Put simply, I watched Derozan and Siakam grown under this same organization.

Both had shown more improvement by this point in their careers with Toronto. And DeRozan never developed a 3 with us, and was already an 83% FT shooter by his 4th season. He had a middie from his rookie season forward. He's an awful point of comparison. Same same Siakam, who also showed consistent improvement.

There is absolutely a clear indication that Siakam did not take a linear path. His efficiency suddenly jumped in 2019 playing beside a Leonard on a stacked team and then dropped when he became the team’s #1 guy and again after Lowry was traded. I don’t want to make exact comparisons but it’s the idea of how progression works and there is clear indication that a guy like Siakam stagnated for years and was also below league efficiency for the majority of his career here.

Sure. Role matters. But Pascal's efficiency PRIOR to being in a higher-volume role is something we didn't see from Barnes, because Siakam had other ways to score where he was effective, and other tools. That's sort of the driving point here.

When you take a player and use him as a role player for 3 years and then thrust him into the role as a primary offensive player, I expect it to not click right away, especially a guy who was raw to begin with.

He's been playing 34, 35 mpg the entire time he's been with us. He's shot more the past two seasons. He's below average basically everywhere. He's putrid from 3. He's bad from the corners, too. He doesn't have elite physical tools. He wasn't efficient on lower volume. He was, in fact, below league average, which means even at reduced volume, he wasn't doing a good job. And he hasn't added any particularly useful skills, nor grown more athletic, since then. So even though he was thrust into a different role and fell flat on his face there, he doesn't have anything to fall back on at lower volume.

It’s a differing view and it could turn out like you said - I hope not, but that’s the fun of it! I probably have a less mathematical view on this.

I'm hopeful that he will suck less ass on lower volume with better spacing as well, man. What concerns me is that everyone talks about him as if he's going to suddenly improve meaningfully in a skillset where he's starting from the bottom. Pascal was okay and when we used him properly, he was efficient. And he had some touch from the corners and did actually improve his J, which is rare enough. Demar had athletic tools, he had the basic foundation of shooting ability, and he made small improvements year after year after year in a fairly atypical fashion. And of course we misused him as well, because he was ill-suited to the role of focal scorer, which is why we ultimately traded him when we could. But playing alongside Lowry and some of the other guys, it worked out because he was elite at protecting the ball.

Scottie has noooone of that. He doesn't have the athleticism, he doesn't have the shooting, he wasn't good when he was a lower-usage guy, he isn't elite at protecting the ball. We're very much square-peg-round-hole with him, and it's getting old because he isn't really showcasing improvement of consequence. And now he's got a pretty big contract for a guy who projects to shoot less, handle less and be basically just a defender. That concerns me.

[Merit]

Put simply, I watched Derozan and Siakam grown under this same organization.

Both had shown more improvement by this point in their careers with Toronto. And DeRozan never developed a 3 with us, and was already an 83% FT shooter by his 4th season. He had a middie from his rookie season forward. He's an awful point of comparison. Same same Siakam, who also showed consistent improvement.

There is absolutely a clear indication that Siakam did not take a linear path. His efficiency suddenly jumped in 2019 playing beside a Leonard on a stacked team and then dropped when he became the team’s #1 guy and again after Lowry was traded. I don’t want to make exact comparisons but it’s the idea of how progression works and there is clear indication that a guy like Siakam stagnated for years and was also below league efficiency for the majority of his career here.

Sure. Role matters. But Pascal's efficiency PRIOR to being in a higher-volume role is something we didn't see from Barnes, because Siakam had other ways to score where he was effective, and other tools. That's sort of the driving point here.

When you take a player and use him as a role player for 3 years and then thrust him into the role as a primary offensive player, I expect it to not click right away, especially a guy who was raw to begin with.

He's been playing 34, 35 mpg the entire time he's been with us. He's shot more the past two seasons. He's below average basically everywhere. He's putrid from 3. He's bad from the corners, too. He doesn't have elite physical tools. He wasn't efficient on lower volume. He was, in fact, below league average, which means even at reduced volume, he wasn't doing a good job. And he hasn't added any particularly useful skills, nor grown more athletic, since then. So even though he was thrust into a different role and fell flat on his face there, he doesn't have anything to fall back on at lower volume.

It’s a differing view and it could turn out like you said - I hope not, but that’s the fun of it! I probably have a less mathematical view on this.

I'm hopeful that he will suck less ass on lower volume with better spacing as well, man. What concerns me is that everyone talks about him as if he's going to suddenly improve meaningfully in a skillset where he's starting from the bottom. Pascal was okay and when we used him properly, he was efficient. And he had some touch from the corners and did actually improve his J, which is rare enough. Demar had athletic tools, he had the basic foundation of shooting ability, and he made small improvements year after year after year in a fairly atypical fashion. And of course we misused him as well, because he was ill-suited to the role of focal scorer, which is why we ultimately traded him when we could. But playing alongside Lowry and some of the other guys, it worked out because he was elite at protecting the ball.

Scottie has noooone of that. He doesn't have the athleticism, he doesn't have the shooting, he wasn't good when he was a lower-usage guy, he isn't elite at protecting the ball. We're very much square-peg-round-hole with him, and it's getting old because he isn't really showcasing improvement of consequence. And now he's got a pretty big contract for a guy who projects to shoot less, handle less and be basically just a defender. That concerns me.

As I’ve outlined above - Scottie did have higher efficiency in a decreased role. Can you please provide your opinion based on the information I presented?

[tsherkin]

As I’ve outlined above - Scottie did have higher efficiency in a decreased role. Can you please provide your opinion based on the information I presented?

EDIT: Ah, you were talking about Pascal.

Yeah, he MIP'd in 2019 when Kawhi was here. That was the year his FT% caught up and jumped all the way to 78.5%, and his FTr hopped up to .320 (his career average is now .298).

He needed his first couple of seasons to learn how to finish and to improve at the FT line, as well as how to draw fouls. He continues to do those things pretty well. He's not a GREAT shooter now, and of course we asked him to do too much after Kawhi left. But in 2019, he was highly effective for us. He was hitting his corner 3s, he was drawing fouls, shooting well at the line, finishing well enough at the rim. As his usage rose after, he couldn't really keep up until he was with a real table-setter like Haliburton after the trade, for sure.

[Merit]

As I’ve outlined above - Scottie did have higher efficiency in a decreased role. Can you please provide your opinion based on the information I presented?

EDIT: Ah, you were talking about Pascal.

Actually no. I’m talking about Scottie. Those stats are Scottie’s.

[Merit]

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth.

Is there?

4 years in with limited growth, my belief in Scottie's ability to improve has largely cratered.

I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level.

Has he, though? Middies don't take you to the next level, they're just AN option. If you're good enough at them and have other weapons as well.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Very good defender. He isn't actually "very good" at anything else. He's a decent playmaker, a crap scorer and an okay rebounder (better when considered as a wing than as a PF, of course).

He isn't a C+S shoot guy. He didn't do particularly well when his responsibility level was basically transition opportunities and other spoon-fed shots. I don't process where your optimism is coming from. He's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in a quarter century, and you're talking about things that he didn't do well even before now. He lacks elite athleticism. He lacks shooting ability. He lacks above-average finishing in close and the ability to get all the way to the rim on a regular basis.

What is it more specifically that you think is going to change compared to the past 4 years which will lend him sufficient value? If we'd kept OG, we'd have a better player than Barnes is right now, albeit with some health issues. Though Barnes hasn't exactly been extremely durable either.

How do you explain the pattern below?

2021-22

Usage 19.0
OWS 3.7
DWS 2.9
WS 6.6

Rookie of the year on a playoff team. Trying to win.

2022-23
Usage 20.3
OWS 2.3
DWS 2.7
WS 5.0

Fred leaves. Jak arrives.

2023-24

USG 24.8
OWS 2.3
DWS 2.0
WS 4.3

All star in a tank year. Pascal and OG leave, massive team shakeup.

2024-25

USG 26.8
OWS 0.7 (This one sticks out. What’s your opinion as to why?)
DWS 2.7
WS 3.4

The pattern appears to be an increased usage rate, slightly decreasing efficiency, consistency defensively. The exception is this year in terms of offense. How do you explain a significant drop offensively from career norms this year? Also, how do you explain the significant difference between his rookie year offensively and this year?

^^ these stats are all Scottie’s. Scottie had a year of solid efficiency in a decreased role.

[tsherkin]

Actually no. I’m talking about Scottie. Those stats are Scottie’s.

Oh, then Christ no.

Scottie was -1.4% and -5.6% rTS in his first two seasons. He was awful for us at the lower shooting volume.

55.2%, 52.6%, 56.6% and 52.5% TS at 12.6, 13.2, 15.7 and 16.3 FGA/g.

He was explicitly bad for us at the lower volume, not more efficient. And his second season was just as bad as this current one.

[Merit]

Actually no. I’m talking about Scottie. Those stats are Scottie’s.

Oh, then Christ no.

Scottie was -1.4% and -5.6% rTS in his first two seasons. He was awful for us at the lower shooting volume.

55.2%, 52.6%, 56.6% and 52.5% TS at 12.6, 13.2, 15.7 and 16.3 FGA/g.

He was explicitly bad for us at the lower volume, not more efficient. And his second season was just as bad as this current one.

Maybe the challenge is in the word efficiency. What if we used the word “impact” instead? Does that change the perception?

[tsherkin]

Maybe the challenge is in the word efficiency. What if we used the word “impact” instead? Does that change the perception?

No, because it's a waste of time. I was talking about his scoring. We all know that his broader offensive impact is tied to his passing, because he doesn't suck at passing, he's pretty decent at it.

I am very specifically concerned with how bad a scorer he is. And when we reduce his overall on-ball time next year because he's such a bad scorer and we have Ingram incoming, it's also going to change his total offensive utility because he won't be functioning as a playmaker as often.

[Merit]

Maybe the challenge is in the word efficiency. What if we used the word “impact” instead? Does that change the perception?

No, because it's a waste of time. I was talking about his scoring. We all know that his broader offensive impact is tied to his passing, because he doesn't suck at passing, he's pretty decent at it.

I am very specifically concerned with how bad a scorer he is. And when we reduce his overall on-ball time next year because he's such a bad scorer and we have Ingram incoming, it's also going to change his total offensive utility because he won't be functioning as a playmaker as often.

Okay so your concern is that his efficiency has stagnated and will get even worse when we add a high volume scorer who reduces the impact of his passing.

I disagree, but I see your reasoning.

It still doesn’t explain the significant drop-off offensively this year compared to other years, especially when we didn’t see IQ much, and we haven’t had BI take over offensively. We have had RJ make strides though - and just about every other player not named Scottie. Which gets me wondering - since his skills in passing and BBIQ play up with better players, could this just be a case where having better players around also makes him more efficient?

Could there be any other explanations? I say this as a jazz piano player. I’ve seen countless players not be able to improvise at all for years, and then all of a sudden - it clicks. Same with toddlers who are learning to speak. Some kids say nothing for the longest time, and then speak in full sentences.

[tsherkin]

Okay so your concern is that his efficiency has stagnated and will get even worse when we add a high volume scorer who reduces the impact of his passing.

Close. I don't think his efficiency will worsen relative to this season. I'm concerned that he has shown no signs that reducing his usage will increase his efficiency to league average or better.

since his skills in passing and BBIQ play up with better players, could this just be a case where having better players around also makes him more efficient?

I doubt it. He takes a lot of wide-open shots now and still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with an artillery fusillade, so I don't see increased spacing or teammate quality helping that.

Could there be any other explanations? I say this as a jazz piano player. I’ve seen countless players not be able to improvise at all for years, and then all of a sudden - it clicks. Same with toddlers who are learning to speak. Some kids say nothing for the longest time, and then speak in full sentences.

Sure. And if you want to waste time waiting for that, then that's your business. But I don't want to invest in a 10-year project where he starts getting better and figuring it out as age starts to erode his physical tools. That's a lodestone, not a useful player at that stage. Improvisational skill increases with exposure and pattern recognition, and just playing more pieces as much as anything else. Not everyone's a savant who just gets it early, no doubt. Is the same with drums and guitar and so forth. The "hidden work," so to speak.

But there are patterns to typical NBA development. We already know that Scottie's ceiling is now considerably lower than we were hoping. So now what we're relying on is that he can be turned into a sufficiently capable C+S corner 3ball guy who can cut around other initiation to make his scoring possessions tolerable, and that we can maybe somehow find a way to still use his passing. And of course we love his defense.

[Indeed]

Where are you getting this from? Teams are definitely not using their best defender on Barrett. In fact defenses typically don’t overreact to RJ as his game is pretty limited so they play him for the drive and generally seem fine letting him score if he does get there.

sometimes, i remember playing magic and franz was on rj and when playing hawks dyson was on rj

Yeah maybe it depends on other teams top defenders and if they are guards or forwards.

I was just wondering what the stats say...and if it was 50/50, 60/40, 70/30...and for who. Not sure if there is a stat that would give us that info.

Either way, adding BI is going to help everyone as he likely will get that top attention next year.

Best perimeter defenders would guard Barrett. However, half of our scoring possession would be transition, then Barrett also plays the PnR.
As for Barnes, he is usually guarded by forward, as there is no reason to guard him with quickness, just size and strength to deal against Barnes.

Individual matchup stats (you can see Anunoby guarded Barrett with the most minutes, and not even close from your memory saying Barnes was more)
Barrett: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629628/head-to-head?Matchup=Offense&dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS
Barnes: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS&Matchup=Offense

[Tripod]

sometimes, i remember playing magic and franz was on rj and when playing hawks dyson was on rj

Yeah maybe it depends on other teams top defenders and if they are guards or forwards.

I was just wondering what the stats say...and if it was 50/50, 60/40, 70/30...and for who. Not sure if there is a stat that would give us that info.

Either way, adding BI is going to help everyone as he likely will get that top attention next year.

Best perimeter defenders would guard Barrett. However, half of our scoring possession would be transition, then Barrett also plays the PnR.
As for Barnes, he is usually guarded by forward, as there is no reason to guard him with quickness, just size and strength to deal against Barnes.

Individual matchup stats (you can see Anunoby guarded Barrett with the most minutes, and not even close from your memory saying Barnes was more)
Barrett: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629628/head-to-head?Matchup=Offense&dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS
Barnes: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS&Matchup=Offense

Appreciate the info. I stand corrected on the OG part.

[Tha Cynic]

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth.

Is there?

4 years in with limited growth, my belief in Scottie's ability to improve has largely cratered.

Yes, there is.

We’re not asking him to become something different but rather to get more accurate.

I think there are aspects of a basketball player that can grow after the age of 23 and he has definitely shown growth unless you’re only nitpicking on one aspect of the game. Heck even his handles have clearly gotten better this season but can improve even more.

I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level.

Has he, though? Middies don't take you to the next level, they're just AN option. If you're good enough at them and have other weapons as well.

He’s taking middies, adding a turnaround jumper, getting to the basket and trying to keep the ball lower when he drives, shooting 3s. Again, it’s more the accuracy that needs to get better. We’re not asking him to do any more than that. Factors that are there - team got worse and he was propelled higher - he struggled with that. Siakam also struggled with that. It’s normal for a raw offensive player. Get better with reps. We’re not trying to win so the 4th quarter offensive spurts are not there. That will be there next season.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Very good defender. He isn't actually "very good" at anything else. He's a decent playmaker, a crap scorer and an okay rebounder (better when considered as a wing than as a PF, of course).

He isn't a C+S shoot guy. He didn't do particularly well when his responsibility level was basically transition opportunities and other spoon-fed shots. I don't process where your optimism is coming from. He's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in a quarter century, and you're talking about things that he didn't do well even before now. He lacks elite athleticism. He lacks shooting ability. He lacks above-average finishing in close and the ability to get all the way to the rim on a regular basis.

You just lumped defense into a single phrase, while it’s half the game, (also downplayed his passing and made a passing comment about rebounds) as if it’s all minuscule, while you broke down scoring into separate individual categories to indicate there’s so much he’s not good at. This doesn’t seem to be an accurate way to rate a player at all, does it? Or is this conversation only about whether he is a #1 scorer? I don’t think he’s a #1 scorer. He has never shown he wants to be a #1 scorer. That’s people on this board. This is a strange way to look at a player for a team whose most iconic player is considered Kyle Lowry. Yeah I know Kyle shot very well from 3 but he was very passive and was never a scorer. Barnes to me will be a better player that what he has shown this season, when we’re going for wins, especially as a more mature player.

The part he is bad at - accuracy. Get better there and don’t try to do too much more. Make the 3 passable. Stop flailing going to the rim. The other parts of his game are all either good or great. Keep working on the jumper/finishing.

What is it more specifically that you think is going to change compared to the past 4 years which will lend him sufficient value? If we'd kept OG, we'd have a better player than Barnes is right now, albeit with some health issues. Though Barnes hasn't exactly been extremely durable either.

He’s going to get more accurate with his shooting/scoring imo. And that’s all he really needs to do to be a more impactful player. You may disagree with that, and that’s fine. I don’t think there’s some crazy improvement he has to make like shooting 40% from 3. He’s going to be more of a guy focused on defense who takes over in certain spots - he has already shown this is how he likes to play. And stats show that players individually get better as the team overall get better, especially advanced stats.

I know everything is numbers and only numbers now, but I do think there’s a human aspect that factors in like how good was this player at something that he’s now trying to add. Did he already have this before? Was he using it consistently? Has his situation to develop this gotten easier or harder. I think he has added the new wrinkles he wants to utilize, but that has been more recent while being the focus of the defense. I don’t think he has to add anything new now, but rather refine it while being a focus of the defense. I think that part is easier to improve.

This is all personal opinion. I can’t predict the future but I see the foundation there to get better. Maybe he doesn’t. I just have a more overall and less… angry take on Barnes and think humans can get better.

[ConSarnit]

Maybe the challenge is in the word efficiency. What if we used the word “impact” instead? Does that change the perception?

No, because it's a waste of time. I was talking about his scoring. We all know that his broader offensive impact is tied to his passing, because he doesn't suck at passing, he's pretty decent at it.

I am very specifically concerned with how bad a scorer he is. And when we reduce his overall on-ball time next year because he's such a bad scorer and we have Ingram incoming, it's also going to change his total offensive utility because he won't be functioning as a playmaker as often.

Okay so your concern is that his efficiency has stagnated and will get even worse when we add a high volume scorer who reduces the impact of his passing.

I disagree, but I see your reasoning.

It still doesn’t explain the significant drop-off offensively this year compared to other years, especially when we didn’t see IQ much, and we haven’t had BI take over offensively. We have had RJ make strides though - and just about every other player not named Scottie. Which gets me wondering - since his skills in passing and BBIQ play up with better players, could this just be a case where having better players around also makes him more efficient?

Could there be any other explanations? I say this as a jazz piano player. I’ve seen countless players not be able to improvise at all for years, and then all of a sudden - it clicks. Same with toddlers who are learning to speak. Some kids say nothing for the longest time, and then speak in full sentences.

Since this team has been healthier Barnes has actually been less efficient. The issue is there are things Barnes is doing that are not teammate dependent that is killing his efficiency. His ft% is below league average. This is not a huge deal but it’s still something. He’s shooting 30% on wide-open 3’s. The guy is one of the worst wide-open shooters in the league. It doesn’t really matter who’s on the floor with him if he can’t hit those shots.

Current Barnes is a bad candidate for a reduced usage role because if you take the ball out of his hands then he’s not creating as much, which is his best offensive attribute. And if he’s creating less and not spacing at all that’s a negative offensive player. Barnes should be more efficient in a reduced role but then you’re also taking away reps from his best offensive skill (passing). It’s not a great situation unless his shooting comes around.

[ConSarnit]

The team has 3 offense first (maybe even offense only) guys in the starting lineup. It’s not much of a concern at all. Barnes has always been more willing to expend his energy on defense while becoming more offensive aggressive in spurts on offense. The other guys like to score more than defend. Seems like it will work out fine.

Mmmm. At a quarter of the cap, his contract and value start to change my thinking on that. A defensive player who will have the ball less and less (and will lose even further value without the ball because it will eat into his playmaking) shouldn't be taking up that much of our pay roll, I guess is the thought.

Otherwise, he's literally nothing but a defensive roleplayer who can't space.

Good thing is there’s tons of room for growth. They have him trying different things on offense rather than just bottling him up. Typically the guys who stop developing are guys teams put into a box and have them focus on a couple of things as role players. That’s where people disagree. I don’t think he’s just always going to be inefficient as he has been taking the shots he will need to take to get to the next level. We’ll see what happens. We’re not a team that will be impatient with the development of the accuracy imo.

I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom over nothing. The player is a very good player lol

Ideally you’re not paying a guy the rookie max so he can “figure it out”. It’s the end of year 4 and we have a lot of data. Barnes has played 35mpg from the jump. We have hundreds and hundreds of possession data across a variety of play types and almost all bad. Sub 50th percentile as a pnr ball handler, iso, post up, spot up, 3pt shooter. This is a guy who’s literally had years of reps in a creator role. Now obviously there are times where played with other creators but we have a sample size and so far it’s not been good at all. You would think across 4 years something would be getting better but if you look at the data it’s really not. This is a big concern.

I’m not 100% against the idea that he can get there. He has shown flashes. I just think it might take longer than we expect and if we’re paying him 25% of the cap we need that to happen before year 6-7.

[Tha Cynic]

No, because it's a waste of time. I was talking about his scoring. We all know that his broader offensive impact is tied to his passing, because he doesn't suck at passing, he's pretty decent at it.

I am very specifically concerned with how bad a scorer he is. And when we reduce his overall on-ball time next year because he's such a bad scorer and we have Ingram incoming, it's also going to change his total offensive utility because he won't be functioning as a playmaker as often.

Okay so your concern is that his efficiency has stagnated and will get even worse when we add a high volume scorer who reduces the impact of his passing.

I disagree, but I see your reasoning.

It still doesn’t explain the significant drop-off offensively this year compared to other years, especially when we didn’t see IQ much, and we haven’t had BI take over offensively. We have had RJ make strides though - and just about every other player not named Scottie. Which gets me wondering - since his skills in passing and BBIQ play up with better players, could this just be a case where having better players around also makes him more efficient?

Could there be any other explanations? I say this as a jazz piano player. I’ve seen countless players not be able to improvise at all for years, and then all of a sudden - it clicks. Same with toddlers who are learning to speak. Some kids say nothing for the longest time, and then speak in full sentences.

Since this team has been healthier Barnes has actually been less efficient. The issue is there are things Barnes is doing that are not teammate dependent that is killing his efficiency. His ft% is below league average. This is not a huge deal but it’s still something. He’s shooting 30% on wide-open 3’s. The guy is one of the worst wide-open shooters in the league. It doesn’t really matter who’s on the floor with him if he can’t hit those shots.

Current Barnes is a bad candidate for a reduced usage role because if you take the ball out of his hands then he’s not creating as much, which is his best offensive attribute. And if he’s creating less and not spacing at all that’s a negative offensive player. Barnes should be more efficient in a reduced role but then you’re also taking away reps from his best offensive skill (passing). It’s not a great situation unless his shooting comes around.

Yes, he needs to get more accurate. No, we should not reduce his role as that takes away from his game. It’s not like he takes too many shots to begin with.

It’s actually interesting looking at a guy like Franz Wagner or Paolo Banchero as they both also struggle with accuracy including catch and shoot, but their team’s defense propels them.

This should all be interesting next season as we try to win.

[Merit]

No, because it's a waste of time. I was talking about his scoring. We all know that his broader offensive impact is tied to his passing, because he doesn't suck at passing, he's pretty decent at it.

I am very specifically concerned with how bad a scorer he is. And when we reduce his overall on-ball time next year because he's such a bad scorer and we have Ingram incoming, it's also going to change his total offensive utility because he won't be functioning as a playmaker as often.

Okay so your concern is that his efficiency has stagnated and will get even worse when we add a high volume scorer who reduces the impact of his passing.

I disagree, but I see your reasoning.

It still doesn’t explain the significant drop-off offensively this year compared to other years, especially when we didn’t see IQ much, and we haven’t had BI take over offensively. We have had RJ make strides though - and just about every other player not named Scottie. Which gets me wondering - since his skills in passing and BBIQ play up with better players, could this just be a case where having better players around also makes him more efficient?

Could there be any other explanations? I say this as a jazz piano player. I’ve seen countless players not be able to improvise at all for years, and then all of a sudden - it clicks. Same with toddlers who are learning to speak. Some kids say nothing for the longest time, and then speak in full sentences.

Since this team has been healthier Barnes has actually been less efficient. The issue is there are things Barnes is doing that are not teammate dependent that is killing his efficiency. His ft% is below league average. This is not a huge deal but it’s still something. He’s shooting 30% on wide-open 3’s. The guy is one of the worst wide-open shooters in the league. It doesn’t really matter who’s on the floor with him if he can’t hit those shots.

Current Barnes is a bad candidate for a reduced usage role because if you take the ball out of his hands then he’s not creating as much, which is his best offensive attribute. And if he’s creating less and not spacing at all that’s a negative offensive player. Barnes should be more efficient in a reduced role but then you’re also taking away reps from his best offensive skill (passing). It’s not a great situation unless his shooting comes around.

The shooting needs to improve, agreed fully. That’s pretty well the only concern I have about his game. He’s young enough that he can still get better.

He would still create in the pick and roll. He doesn’t have to bring the ball up court, but he can as a one man fast break after a rebound.

The counter narrative to your suggestion is that he’s been playing injured or tired. I think it’s both. He’s propping up all bench units and getting looks for others that are bricked. Do I agree with your sentiment, yes - largely. He definitely needs to shoot better. However I’m far more optimistic about his shooting improving and his ability to play up with better players - if for no other reason than he’s done it already. Rookie Scottie did it.