PG Hawks: Ridiculous

[fansinceforever]

Our situation was a mess. It went off the cliff with Dame’s health.

Feels like a year ago that me and you were saying that the Bucks should gut the roster and do a full rebuild around Giannis in the 2024 off-season. Oh wait, that actually was a year ago....lol.

Going into opening night 2024'25 with the previous season's roster was a brain-dead move.

And we said 11 months ago that Khris and Dame's trade value would never be higher than it would be during the 2024 off-season. That turned out to be true to say the least.

Khris was coming off a solid showing in the playoffs and Dame still had his reputation as a 75th anniversary team guy. Should have moved both guys this past summer. Between the 2 of them the Bucks could have acquired some really nice pieces to put around Giannis.

After Khris' showing in the playoffs, I really thought the Bucks would swindle a dumb GM in the off-season. That was our big chance. We probably could have gotten a guy like Giddy for Khris this past summer. Khris being a veteran guy with championship experience who can still contribute on the court, would have probably been an easy sell to the Thunder who were ready to contend going into this season.

And with Giannis still at 29 years of age going into this season. Doing a full re-build in the 2024 off-season would have given you just enough time to make another 2-3 playoff runs with Giannis before he slowed down or retired. Assuming you made good moves. Now it's too late, Giannis is a year older and now you don't have the assets to acquire any pieces of significance.

Hey, I was a vocal member of the team too.

The next conversation around here will be centered around if it's possible to gut the roster rebuild using Giannis or around him?

Both are longshots but I don't see any way to rebuild around Giannis. It's time to turn the page and get the most we can.

[TroyD92]

You sure you were on this board? Because those middling pre Giannis seasons and even the Giannis emergence Kidd years we're absolutely cutthroat around here .

Nostalgia gives everything a rose colored tint I suppose.

There was some blissful moments sprinkled in there around these parts for moments but I don't know how you can look back at the never ending Redd saga, Bo freakin Outlaw, Monta have it all, max contract Greg Monroe!, Skiles, Jennings PGOTF, Gooden's 4 assists, Yi's chair, Potsie headbutting the rim, Maggette's 20 FT preseason game, Google me slime, Larry's bottle service, Kidd, MCW PGOTF, Roko Leni-Ukic PGOTF, Tobias Harris, Epke Udoh's DRTG, Nate Wolters PGOTF, just wait until OJ is healthy, MONTA HURT HIS HAND, Jabari's autism, Brandon Knight PGOTF, trading a first for Greives Vasquez and whatever the million other talking points there was and think this board was a unified front even through that tint .

Take me back to the golden age

[Baddy Chuck]

Also, Dames on/off numbers remain the same as they were when he went out with injury, so I don't know who we got tasting the milk.

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" 1.7 net rating on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing.

[Baddy Chuck]

Defense the last 6-games since Dame went out is 10th worst in the league, and that's with them "holding" that G-league Lakers team to 89-points doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Take that out and we've literally been a bottom-5 defense (26th), lol. But hey, just wait until Jericho Sims gets back, or something...

To piggy back on this.

If you remove the Bronny James led Lakers squad game, those last 5 games without Dame Bucks are sporting a -6.5 net rating, 125 defensive rating.

The starting lineup, even with boat anchor Kuzma, has went from a 4.3 net rating squad with a 109 DRTG to a -5.3 net rating squad with Rollins at a 118 DRTG.

Surefire Dame improvement KPJ is rocking a -9.2 net rating with a 128 DRTG.

[Baddy Chuck]

It's kind of weird to act like we lost because we missed Dame in the thread of a game where his 2 replacements scored 38 points on 18 shots with 10 assists and 3 turnovers while being the only 2 players on the entire roster who showed defensively.

I think you could also spin this into showing how a lot of Dame's problems aren't just Dame problems though. Like its awesome KPJ exploded for 20 in the fourth, as the Bucks were down 20 the entire time to a coasting team, but in quarters 2 and 3 when the Hawks fully took over the game Rollins contributed 5 points and KPJ put in none. Giannis played the entire third quarter in an attempt to make it a game and we found ourselves scoring 17 points and outscored by 19. The guys who showed defensively weren't given the marquee defensive assignment, like Dame isn't, and gave up a combined 7/10 shooting, with 4 shooting fouls, on defended field goals and 12 assists.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

we werent going anywhere with dame but my god we were at least mediocre. if you cant see that then come on man

theres no rebuild or reset scenario related to dame and giannis where both dont go either. i think trading dame just keeps us hanging around where we are except a bit worse for years. and if youre going to deal dame for young guys then whats the timeline become. it just doesnt make sense anyhow or anyway for anything but a complete teardown. we may not get lotto picks for those guys but we could get a couple young pieces and a stash of lesser picks....plus wed get some financial flexibility....we could start making some moves again absorbing bad contracts by the time our own picks fall back in line.

make no mistake a reset will take 4-5 years anyway. just get some try hards and a young coach that puts a team out there that you want to root for

id watch... id watch with more interest than this bunch

[ShootingtheJ]

Also, Dames on/off numbers remain the same as they were when he went out with injury, so I don't know who we got tasting the milk.

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" 1.7 net rating on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing.

Net rating is not on/off, it's not normalized.

[Baddy Chuck]

Also, Dames on/off numbers remain the same as they were when he went out with injury, so I don't know who we got tasting the milk.

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" 1.7 net rating on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing.

Net rating is not on/off, it's not normalized.

OK I mispoke.

Also, Dames on/off numbers remain the same as they were when he went out with injury, so I don't know who we got tasting the milk.

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" .7 "on/off" on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing. The 5 games post Laker's G-League beatdown has raised Dames on/off by 1.8 points.

[Jez2983]

We are cooked. Can we hurry up and get properly **** again so I can pin hopes on the John Salmons' of the NBA world again.

[ShootingtheJ]

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" 1.7 net rating on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing.

Net rating is not on/off, it's not normalized.

OK I mispoke.

Also, Dames on/off numbers remain the same as they were when he went out with injury, so I don't know who we got tasting the milk.

This is just unequivocally false. In just the last 6 games that Dame has been out recently he's "gained" .7 "on/off" on the season by simply not playing because of how poorly the team has been performing. The 5 games post Laker's G-League beatdown has raised Dames on/off by 1.8 points.

You're so close to the pertinent number. What's the season total? Tell everyone how much worse the team has been with him on the floor.

Then make me a list of other $48.7 players that you can say the same for. I'm not saying he's done, but he doesn't fit here.

[-Jragon-]

The interesting part is that 15-20 years ago the Hawks were a huge hero ball team.. they just used team ball to beat our hero ball a$$es

[Baddy Chuck]

You're so close to the pertinent number. What's the season total? Tell everyone how much worse the team has been with him on the floor.

Then make me a list of other $48.7 players that you can say the same for. I'm not saying he's done, but he doesn't fit here.

I mean the numbers are there (.7 on, 2.9 off) for everyone to see, you've shouted them from the rooftops for months. Currently we're seeing that number shrink with increased responsibilities of others, opposite of what you said would have happened.

To answer your question, here's some guys with negative on/offs making a bunch of money: Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker, GSW Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, LeBron, more obvious ones like Lavine and Beal. We'll soon see where a guy like DeAaron Fox winds up, but I bet it'll be a boatload, he's been a negative for both his teams this season. Jalen Brunson took a paycut so he isn't making a max deal but he's got a negative on/off. Bam's rocking a negative on/off before his max extension kicks in. Bane's on a max extension, granted not $50 million, he's in the red. A guy like Sabonis that you've been clamoring for as recent as last season was a negative on/off player on a winning team. I'm sure not trading Jalen Brunson because Cam Payne has a better on/off or Anthony Edwards because NAW has a better on/off, think trading Jaylen Brown for some role players is a good idea because Sam Hauser clears him. I understand the $50 million aspect but are guys like Josh Hart or Coby White no longer in your view as they're negative on/off guys this season? Are you looking at VORP god, on/off extraordinaire Malik Beasley to return?

I agree with what we've seen this season that Dame has not found his spot on the team despite pretty much everything saying that he's a better player than he was last season. There's Dame trades that could improve the team out there I'm sure, but I also think there's trades that could improve the team around a guy who was literally the backbone of the team one season ago and get him back in the green. Granted, the more time goes on and the assets slip by I do agree the latter becomes more difficult but hell, last season it was seemingly as simple as Malik Beasley to make it work. You disagree, but to me it would take more than just a Dame trade to right this ship, like a lot more, and I tend to believe that if you could figure out that "a lot more" with Dame you would see even better success as I don't believe we will receive anyone near Dame's level in return for him, it would essentially be a "gamble/rebuild" deal.

So in your opinion what has changed in the 1 season where Dame went from literally our best on/off player on the entire team to where he's at now? Your usual go tos would place him pretty damn high on the list of impact players in the league. Last season he was a +12.8 on/off, leading both on court and off court categories. This wasn't just limited to Giannis/Khris lineups either. Khris/Giannis lineups couldn't really compete without Dame (-2.96 net, 121 ORTG/124 DRTG) (Giannis only -1.78, Khris only -14.82), Dame lineups without either were able to perform, especially defensively where he's currently finding all the blame for our troubles (+6.4, 117/110). Combined they were a juggernaut. You've switched up to giving Khris/Giannis all the credit because of this season, and retconned all the extreme positives we saw with Dame, but what happened happened. Dame fit here. Like really **** well.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

You're so close to the pertinent number. What's the season total? Tell everyone how much worse the team has been with him on the floor.

Then make me a list of other $48.7 players that you can say the same for. I'm not saying he's done, but he doesn't fit here.

I mean the numbers are there (.7 on, 2.9 off) for everyone to see, you've shouted them from the rooftops for months. Currently we're seeing that number shrink with increased responsibilities of others, opposite of what you said would have happened.

To answer your question, here's some guys with negative on/offs making a bunch of money: Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker, GSW Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, LeBron, more obvious ones like Lavine and Beal. We'll soon see where a guy like DeAaron Fox winds up, but I bet it'll be a boatload, he's been a negative for both his teams this season. Jalen Brunson took a paycut so he isn't making a max deal but he's got a negative on/off. Bam's rocking a negative on/off before his max extension kicks in. Bane's on a max extension, granted not $50 million, he's in the red. A guy like Sabonis that you've been clamoring for as recent as last season was a negative on/off player on a winning team. I'm sure not trading Jalen Brunson because Cam Payne has a better on/off or Anthony Edwards because NAW has a better on/off, think trading Jaylen Brown for some role players is a good idea because Sam Hauser clears him. I understand the $50 million aspect but are guys like Josh Hart or Coby White no longer in your view as they're negative on/off guys this season? Are you looking at VORP god, on/off extraordinaire Malik Beasley to return?

I agree with what we've seen this season that Dame has not found his spot on the team despite pretty much everything saying that he's a better player than he was last season. There's Dame trades that could improve the team out there I'm sure, but I also think there's trades that could improve the team around a guy who was literally the backbone of the team one season ago and get him back in the green. Granted, the more time goes on and the assets slip by I do agree the latter becomes more difficult but hell, last season it was seemingly as simple as Malik Beasley to make it work. You disagree, but to me it would take more than just a Dame trade to right this ship, like a lot more, and I tend to believe that if you could figure out that "a lot more" with Dame you would see even better success as I don't believe we will receive anyone near Dame's level in return for him, it would essentially be a "gamble/rebuild" deal.

So in your opinion what has changed in the 1 season where Dame went from literally our best on/off player on the entire team to where he's at now? Your usual go tos would place him pretty damn high on the list of impact players in the league. Last season he was a +12.8 on/off, leading both on court and off court categories. This wasn't just limited to Giannis/Khris lineups either. Khris/Giannis lineups couldn't really compete without Dame (-2.96 net, 121 ORTG/124 DRTG) (Giannis only -1.78, Khris only -14.82), Dame lineups without either were able to perform, especially defensively where he's currently finding all the blame for our troubles (+6.4, 117/110). Combined they were a juggernaut. You've switched up to giving Khris/Giannis all the credit because of this season, and retconned all the extreme positives we saw with Dame, but what happened happened. Dame fit here. Like really **** well.

fantastic read. wonderful analysis. marvelously written... and an epic takedown