Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[pifhluk23]

The league has completely passed us by. The top tier offensive meta is motion offense with a top tier distributor or 1-5 everyone is a good and willing passer. Top tier defense is switching 1-5 and running your ass off to cover the corners. We can't do either and don't really have a path to acquire enough players to do both.

On top of that there is the fact that everyone is running a ton more then past eras thus more injuries (and why the NBA wants to shorten game times.) With that being the meta and the CBA the way it is you are far better off paying 1 max guy who can distribute the ball and then rest of the guys being 20-30M players. Were stuck with 2 nearly 60M guys and neither of them is a top tier distributor. There is no path for us to get to top tier in the current meta, its time to blow it up.

Giannis is an absolute top tier distributor.

No, Jokic, Luka, Haliburton, LeBron, Harden, maybe Trae and Cade are top tier distributors. Giannis can pass out of double teams but he can't create offense for everyone else. Sabonis is a better distributor then Giannis, hell most guys are. I would maybe call Giannis a top tier distributor during Bud's years but still think that's a stretch as all he was doing was barreling into double or triple teams and passing out of it.

[raferfenix]

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

[Ron Swanson]

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

They weren't last year and that was even with Dame having a "down season" compared to 2025. So the question becomes to what extent those numbers are "just noise", or to what extent is downright ass coaching stifling the flow of the offense and relegating both guys to ISO and post-up scorers as a necessity to bail out said lack of flow and cohesion?

2023-24: +10.4 net-rating in 65-games (1,756 minutes)

2024-25: +4.7 net-rating (still best on the team with any meaningful sample size of 1,000 minutes or more though)

[j_hilge444]

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

I was just thinking last night how different things would be if Stotts was never fired. Pretty much would guarantee we wouldn't have Doc today.

[MickeyDavis]

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

I was just thinking last night how different things would be if Stotts was never fired. Pretty much would guarantee we wouldn't have Doc today.

Stotts wasn't fired, he quit (unless you mean in 2007, when he was fired). But yes, he'd likely be the coach now if he had stayed.

[ShootingtheJ]

The league has completely passed us by. The top tier offensive meta is motion offense with a top tier distributor or 1-5 everyone is a good and willing passer. Top tier defense is switching 1-5 and running your ass off to cover the corners. We can't do either and don't really have a path to acquire enough players to do both.

On top of that there is the fact that everyone is running a ton more then past eras thus more injuries (and why the NBA wants to shorten game times.) With that being the meta and the CBA the way it is you are far better off paying 1 max guy who can distribute the ball and then rest of the guys being 20-30M players. Were stuck with 2 nearly 60M guys and neither of them is a top tier distributor. There is no path for us to get to top tier in the current meta, its time to blow it up.

Giannis is an absolute top tier distributor.

No, Jokic, Luka, Haliburton, LeBron, Harden, maybe Trae and Cade are top tier distributors. Giannis can pass out of double teams but he can't create offense for everyone else. Sabonis is a better distributor then Giannis, hell most guys are. I would maybe call Giannis a top tier distributor during Bud's years but still think that's a stretch as all he was doing was barreling into double or triple teams and passing out of it.

Due to significant disparity is passes that lead to 3s, Giannis assists (as of roughly a month ago, i haven't seen the updated numbers) actually produce more points than Jokic. Giannis is an elite offense hub.

[j_hilge444]

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

I was just thinking last night how different things would be if Stotts was never fired. Pretty much would guarantee we wouldn't have Doc today.

Stotts wasn't fired, he quit (unless you mean in 2007, when he was fired). But yes, he'd likely be the coach now if he had stayed.

That's right. I was conflating the reports about that supposed spat with Griffin with him leaving.

[jakecronus8]

I will never be sold that Dame wanted to be here. We were at best his 3rd or 4th option and it would be a distant 3rd or 4th. I think an energized and motivated Dame looks different as well as the team. But I will never shake the sinking feeling I had in the pit of my stomach when Dame showed up 7 hours late to his welcome party and looked like his dog just died when he stepped out of the limo. Has never felt right since.

[mlloyd10]

I will never be sold that Dame wanted to be here. We were at best his 3rd or 4th option and it would be a distant 3rd or 4th. I think an energized and motivated Dame looks different as well as the team. But I will never shake the sinking feeling I had in the pit of my stomach when Dame showed up 7 hours late to his welcome party and looked like his dog just died when he stepped out of the limo. Has never felt right since.

He looked energized and motivated during the pacers series

[Pattycakes]

I will never be sold that Dame wanted to be here. We were at best his 3rd or 4th option and it would be a distant 3rd or 4th. I think an energized and motivated Dame looks different as well as the team. But I will never shake the sinking feeling I had in the pit of my stomach when Dame showed up 7 hours late to his welcome party and looked like his dog just died when he stepped out of the limo. Has never felt right since.

Not sure if him and his BM ever made up, but he was literally going through a divorce from Portland and his high school sweetheart simultaneously… I believe that was a broken man then.

[Bernman]

I'm no longer angered that Brooklyn are openly pining for Giannis. Now it actually creates possibilities. That's another team I presume would deal Flagg+ for Giannis if they got the #1 pick. They have 92m in projected cap space. So they don't have to near match $. Though they'd want a running mate. Maybe for us it'd be Claxton, Flagg, our own '25 1st back.

Speaking of our own picks back, it should be a prerequisite if we're moving on from Giannis, we're getting our '26-'27 picks back from New Orleans. Otherwise we stay the course. Tell that to New Orleans. And we'd need to fold it into the Giannis deal, so they just don't keep the higher picks. But us absorbing DeJounte Murray is probably more valuable than 2 #20 picks.

Giannis for Flagg, our 26 & 27 1sts back from NO, our '25 1st back from Brooklyn, Claxton, Murray would be a solid trade/future foundation.

[paulpressey25]

If you think back to the Kareem deal, we actually got a bucketload of stuff.

Brian Winters (12th overall pick in 1974)
Junior (8th overall pick in 1975)
Dave Meyers (2nd overall pick in 1975)
Elmore Smith (3rd overall pick in 1971)

But despite that haul, we still “lost the trade” since Kareem played another 15 years.

If Brooklyn wins the lotto, I’d want Flagg plus:

MKE 2025 #1
PHX 2025 #1 (which I think is what the Nets end up with after accounting for pick swaps)
NYK 2027 #1
Nets 2029 #1
Nets 2031 #1
NYK 2031 #1

Nets have cap space, but we’d probably end up taking back Claxton’s $68mm owed over the following three years. That way they have money to add another FA

[BroncoBuck]

We accomplish the full MLE through Brooks ending contract. We do no get more picks available to trade, as we can only trade 1 of the 2031 or 2032 picks.

The only thing we accomplished new was being able to include cash in the Sims trade.

You have to be below first apron to get the full MLE. The tax payer MLE should be around 2/13million or so.

Dame (54)
Giannis (54)
Kuzma (22)

Puts us at 130 million.
Pat opt in is 139 million.
Bobby opt in 153 million.
KPJ opt in 155 million
Green team option puts us at about 158 million for 7 guys. (Khris would’ve put us at 170). Leaves 5 roster spots to fill.

Luxury tax is 188 million.
First Apron is 195 million.

The Bucks now have room to retain some of their players in addition to using the full MLE, and that’s with Bobby opting in. The new CBA also allows you to trade for a player into that MLE contract space. You can effectively ignore the Stepien rule by making one of the years a swap (as everyone in the league has done the last decade).

The Bucks have options this offseason, even if they want to split the MLE on a guy like Oubre or NAW over using it all on one player like Myles Turner. There’s a lot of leveraged teams around the league right now, this is going to be a tough year for free agents to get paid (which is why I think Bobby opts in especially coming off his suspension).

Sorry, but Myles Turner is going to get $30 million a season, and NAW will get at least the full MLE if not more from Minnesota.

Take a look at the cap space and apron repercussions teams are facing around the league this year. Minnesota is in deep financial trouble. Naz Reid can opt out of his 14 million and Randle will opt in to his 31 million.

[Bernman]

If you think back to the Kareem deal, we actually got a bucketload of stuff.

Brian Winters (12th overall pick in 1974)
Junior (8th overall pick in 1975)
Dave Meyers (2nd overall pick in 1975)
Elmore Smith (3rd overall pick in 1971)

But despite that haul, we still “lost the trade” since Kareem played another 15 years.

If Brooklyn wins the lotto, I’d want Flagg plus:

MKE 2025 #1
PHX 2025 #1 (which I think is what the Nets end up with after accounting for pick swaps)
NYK 2027 #1
Nets 2029 #1
Nets 2031 #1
NYK 2031 #1

Nets have cap space, but we’d probably end up taking back Claxton’s $68mm owed over the following three years. That way they have money to add another FA

It simultaneously seems like a lot and a little. They're projected lower picks, outside of NYK '31 maybe, & that's far away. I don't think they get that Phoenix pick swap, but it's convoluted.

I'm not good w/ shipping our high 1sts to New Orleans for the next couple years, while we suck. I'm gonna need those back to go fw. After that I'm fine w/ taking the chance we're not good w/ Flagg & co. by '28 when PDX gets our picks.

We have to hope the right team wins the lotto for us to get involved w/ Flagg. I think half would deal him+ for Giannis. But definitely nobody with the top 3 odds. New Orleans after has an outside shot, but they'd have to deal Zion. Maybe that's how we get our picks back.

[GoldenAntlers]

I'd argue that the biggest problem is this team for the past two seasons has had zero identity

Dame and Giannis have been a bad fit together.

If they were close to the Kobe - Shaq caliber duo imagined they’d be able to figure it out even under bad coaches.

Vibes around the team have been bad since the very beginning. Stotts was canary in the coal mine.

I forgot about Stotts!

Wow, what a ride.

[soxperry]

If you think back to the Kareem deal, we actually got a bucketload of stuff.

Brian Winters (12th overall pick in 1974)
Junior (8th overall pick in 1975)
Dave Meyers (2nd overall pick in 1975)
Elmore Smith (3rd overall pick in 1971)

But despite that haul, we still “lost the trade” since Kareem played another 15 years.

If Brooklyn wins the lotto, I’d want Flagg plus:

MKE 2025 #1
PHX 2025 #1 (which I think is what the Nets end up with after accounting for pick swaps)
NYK 2027 #1
Nets 2029 #1
Nets 2031 #1
NYK 2031 #1

Nets have cap space, but we’d probably end up taking back Claxton’s $68mm owed over the following three years. That way they have money to add another FA

But why would Giannis want Brooklyn? Are we just assuming another top 10 guy wants to join him there?

[Profound23]

You guys could all be Brewer fans. The 1977-1983 Brewers during my childhood were an amazing collection of Milwaukee greats. And a damn fun team to watch.

And then in August of 1982 they lost Rollie to injury, and lost game six AND seven of the World Series. And it still hurts. And they never got back 43 years later.

It’s going to be an ugly next five years. But getting ticked about some bad trades (and they’ve been bad) is nothing like what we’d be feeling if the Suns knocked us out in six or seven games.

The Bucks and Packers provide enough heartache but at least have given me a combined three titles since I have been alive. I am very thankful that I can't stand baseball and would almost rather watch paint dry.

[Bernman]

But why would Giannis want Brooklyn? Are we just assuming another top 10 guy wants to join him there?

He doesn't have a trade kicker. They have other assets/cap space which would allow them to trade for a Giannis running mate, in addition to Cam Johnson being the ideal 3rd banana. Or they could lure a free agent to Brooklyn to play w/ Giannis.

[pifhluk23]

I think Philly is the only team that would trade Flagg for Giannis, just doesn't make sense for everyone else unless you've got a plan with other stars joining. Also Giannis doesn't have a NTC on paper but he essentially does, the organization isn't going to send him anywhere he doesn't want to go and they won't trade him unless he asks.

[jakecronus8]

I think Philly is the only team that would trade Flagg for Giannis, just doesn't make sense for everyone else unless you've got a plan with other stars joining. Also Giannis doesn't have a NTC on paper but he essentially does, the organization isn't going to send him anywhere he doesn't want to go and they won't trade him unless he asks.

I think San Antonio, Miami, Philly, Chicago, Houston (via Phoenix), Atlanta (via Sacramento), Dallas and New Orleans would all trade the #1 pick for Giannis. You're talking about an all time top 10 talent in his prime and arguably the most impactful two way player in the world in his prime.

If not, I don't even pick up the phone. Flagg is where the convo begins for me. If not I ride it out with the best player your organization will ever have for two more years.