Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[payitforward]

...COSC was right, we did sell low on Deni. Had we traded him this year we could have gotten a larger return....

No doubt about it. I.e. on the fair assumption that Deni was playing for us at the level he has played in Portland...

1. we would have gotten a larger return for him at the trade deadline
2. we'd have had about 5-6 more wins at the trade deadline

The two go together. If your players play better you win more games. Period.

...The front office is still on the right track...

Yup. The same track they were on when they traded Deni.

[doclinkin]

First picks come with a certain status and a lot of pressure to win. If the team doesn't have a solid foundation, it's extremely hard to build a great supporting cast around them before they end up leaving for greener pastures. If you find a gem like Giannis or Jokic or Steph lower in the draft, they come with less pressure and more humility and gratitude to the team that gave them a chance and developed them. But yeah, you have to focus a lot of effort on development and scouting, which the Wizards haven't excelled at.

The other way teams have reached championship level in the last 10-15 years is by fleecing other desperate teams for assets. Boston built their championship team on the back of Brooklyn's draft picks. OKC is a strong championship contender still collecting assets from the Westbrook and Paul George trades.

Show me the solid foundation we had.

To build a foundation you need assets. Free agents aren't coming here. Which means you have two avenues to draw players: draft picks and trades. Problem is, our former GM traded away control over our draft pick for 3 years. With declining protections. Lottery protected last year. Top 10 this year. Top 8 next year.

And as for trades, we had a 15 win team even with Deni breaking out.

So the only possible way we had to collect assets was to lose. Lose hard and long until we were out from under the gun of a lost pick.

They shipped Deni before the draft knowing we needed to bottom out. We had traded everything we could. We shipped Gafford. Shopped Kuzma. (Later had a sign and trade loaded and ready for Tyus Jones, but he took less money to start for the Suns who were trying for a playoff run and had no true starting PG).

Deni was all we had to offer anyone. Even at his best, his biggest fans still argue that he is not good enough to endanger our top 10 pick this year. Top 8 next year.

((I personally disagree. You never know in advance which way the ball bounces. Sometimes a team makes a surprising run based on chemistry and luck, or catching other teams when they are injured, etc. Or a talented player breaks out. Like Deni did. But I won't go into all the reasons I've stated before)).

But you mention OKC. As a General Board poster maybe you don't know that's where our front office came into the league. That's the model they are following.

OKC was built off the strength of a series of good drafts. Durant. Westbrook. Harden. Ibaka. They parlayed that crew into a winning record where they had enough of a foundation that they could land players like Paul George to willingly play for them. Then trade him for a haul. But started with a series of high draft picks on a framework of nothing at all. That doesn't mean you are shooting only for your #1 overall, you can't predict or rely on that. It does mean that they built from the bottom, by making smart picks and good reads on talent. Subsequently they have grown their farm system at the back of the bench by obsessively trading for future picks.

Which we are doing. We have 4 rookie first rounders. We have 10 first round picks over the next 7 drafts. 16 second round picks. And collect more with every trade they make.

So OKC is the model but we are back in the Seattle days of that franchise. We are trying to draft our Durant to build around. We need to draft high and well for a few years in a row before we can even imagine a 'solid foundation'. The asset collection phase. And they are not relying on drafting a single #1 pick. You can't. It's a crapshoot. That's not a strategy, hoping for top luck. But you can build with a series of high picks. To collect assets. So long as you actually have those picks.

You cite the Celts. Boston drafted Rondo and Pierce. Traded draft picks and young assets for KG and Ray Allen. If they didn't lose enough to draft high for a few years in a row, they wouldn't have been able to land those two. KG wanted out of Minnesota. Ainge was friends with the Minny decisionmakers. If I recall it right fellow Celtic McHale was GM then. They put together a deal that everybody else in the league hated because Boston got KG too cheap and noone else could bid on him. When that crew won a championship the Big 3 had extra value and the Celtics shipped them at the right time. They still won with back to back high picks. Not because of a solid foundation, but because they predicted their stars would fall after they shipped them. Then profited off the fall. Sold them a poison pill.

Like the Wiz have done with the Phoenix picks and swaps.

If you can show me a solid foundation we would get that was built around Deni. And Deni only. Cool. I'm willing to listen. Just know that we would not have had the -low pressure humble' late draft picks to build around -- because those later lotto picks would be playing for New York. And they are the ones who could cite the example of the Celtics with the Nets picks. Because our former front office was desperate to build around Bradley Beal and whatever they could get for the one-legged John Wall.

No. Losing was the only strategy we had. The only chance we had to build a foundation. Endangering our lotto pick in these two potentially historic drafts is a risk. So instead we traded all of our assets. Including Deni. For every possible future pick we could get.

[dckingsfan]

... 2. we'd have had about 5-6 more wins at the trade deadline...

If and only if Keefe was playing to win. We could have had the same playing the other veterans.

I reject this notion, with respect since I see how easy it is to come to the conclusion.

I believe that Keefe held the keys on the number of wins. He just played the rookies until the game was out of hand.

We would have been in the same position regardless. Keefe was directed to lose and lose he did.

[AFM]

Very funny to realize we will probably get a part 2 of this thread.

[doclinkin]

If you want to tank, you will tank. Just play him the same number of minutes as Jonas or Holmes and you would get the same results.

Portland didn't try to tank. The Wizards were shameless in their tanking.

The Wiz tanked on the 'strength' of Kyle Kuzma playing heavy minutes. Plus 3, now 4 rookies. And Bilal.

Deni plays the same position as Kyshawn. Bilal. Kuzma. And possibly Sarr, who at the time of the draft said he was a Forward.

With Deni we also wouldn't have had Bub. So minus one rookie.

We also would not have had an injured Malcolm Brogdon.

The more minutes of Deni, the less we lose in the +/-.

The more minutes of Kuzma, the more we lose.

But somehow we would have played Deni. And he would have broken out. But not won games. Because we would have benched him. But still could ship him for increased value. And Ted would not have blown a gasket for shipping a winning player mid-season. And the league would reward us for openly tanking by rigging the top pick our way. This year and next. And there is no chance we would have lost a draft pick. Because Deni + a top 6 pick is not good enough to win. So we still could gain a top 8 pick next year. But THAT would surely be enough for a championship.

I think I have it right. Yeah?

[Despy]

If I can survive this franchise trading my favorite player ever to pick up a bullets uniform (chris webber) I can live with trading deni **** adjvi with 1/1000th of the talent as cwebb

[AFM]

If you want to tank, you will tank. Just play him the same number of minutes as Jonas or Holmes and you would get the same results.

Portland didn't try to tank. The Wizards were shameless in their tanking.

The Wiz tanked on the 'strength' of Kyle Kuzma playing heavy minutes. Plus 3, now 4 rookies. And Bilal.

Deni plays the same position as Kyshawn. Bilal. Kuzma. And possibly Sarr, who at the time of the draft said he was a Forward.

With Deni we also wouldn't have had Bub. So minus one rookie.

We also would not have had an injured Malcolm Brogdon.

The more minutes of Deni, the less we lose in the +/-.

The more minutes of Kuzma, the more we lose.

But somehow we would have played Deni. And he would have broken out. But not won games. Because we would have benched him. But still could ship him for increased value. And Ted would not have blown a gasket for shipping a winning player mid-season. And the league would reward us for openly tanking by rigging the top pick our way. This year and next. And there is no chance we would have lost a draft pick. Because Deni + a top 6 pick is not good enough to win. So we still could gain a top 8 pick next year. But THAT would surely be enough for a championship.

I think I have it right. Yeah?

No. We would have kept him and not played him for two years, and no one here would have criticized the coach for doing so.

[doclinkin]

If you want to tank, you will tank. Just play him the same number of minutes as Jonas or Holmes and you would get the same results.

Portland didn't try to tank. The Wizards were shameless in their tanking.

The Wiz tanked on the 'strength' of Kyle Kuzma playing heavy minutes. Plus 3, now 4 rookies. And Bilal.

Deni plays the same position as Kyshawn. Bilal. Kuzma. And possibly Sarr, who at the time of the draft said he was a Forward.

With Deni we also wouldn't have had Bub. So minus one rookie.

We also would not have had an injured Malcolm Brogdon.

The more minutes of Deni, the less we lose in the +/-.

The more minutes of Kuzma, the more we lose.

But somehow we would have played Deni. And he would have broken out. But not won games. Because we would have benched him. But still could ship him for increased value. And Ted would not have blown a gasket for shipping a winning player mid-season. And the league would reward us for openly tanking by rigging the top pick our way. This year and next. And there is no chance we would have lost a draft pick. Because Deni + a top 6 pick is not good enough to win. So we still could gain a top 8 pick next year. But THAT would surely be enough for a championship.

I think I have it right. Yeah?

No. We would have kept him and not played him for two years, and no one here would have criticized the coach for doing so.

Also he would have reacted well, by becoming the best player ever in the 15 minutes a game his coach allowed him. Because in the past he has never lost momentum when benched for lesser players. Plus we would have played all 7 forwards on the team at the same time. We don't need guards anyway. Deni can play 5 positions at once if necessary.

[TGW]

Very funny to realize we will probably get a part 2 of this thread.

As long as Deni continues to be better than any player this front office acquires, you will see a part three or maybe part four of this thread.

[smoothSeph]

Very funny to realize we will probably get a part 2 of this thread.

As long as Deni continues to be better than any player this front office acquires, you will see a part three or maybe part four of this thread.

Bub just had his 10th 4+ 3 pt game of his ROOKIE year, haven’t seen talk of him in this thread for pages. But let everyone tell it we traded Deni for absolutely nothing. So yea, I definitely expect it to continue.

[dckingsfan]

If you want to tank, you will tank. Just play him the same number of minutes as Jonas or Holmes and you would get the same results.

Portland didn't try to tank. The Wizards were shameless in their tanking.

The Wiz tanked on the 'strength' of Kyle Kuzma playing heavy minutes. Plus 3, now 4 rookies. And Bilal.

Deni plays the same position as Kyshawn. Bilal. Kuzma. And possibly Sarr, who at the time of the draft said he was a Forward.

With Deni we also wouldn't have had Bub. So minus one rookie.

We also would not have had an injured Malcolm Brogdon.

The more minutes of Deni, the less we lose in the +/-.

The more minutes of Kuzma, the more we lose.

But somehow we would have played Deni. And he would have broken out. But not won games. Because we would have benched him. But still could ship him for increased value. And Ted would not have blown a gasket for shipping a winning player mid-season. And the league would reward us for openly tanking by rigging the top pick our way. This year and next. And there is no chance we would have lost a draft pick. Because Deni + a top 6 pick is not good enough to win. So we still could gain a top 8 pick next year. But THAT would surely be enough for a championship.

I think I have it right. Yeah?

No. We would have kept him and not played him for two years, and no one here would have criticized the coach for doing so.

hehehe. You don't have to not play him. It isn't like we didn't play Jonas, we just played him less.

I think Keefe is the tank master. He knows EXACTLY how to go about losing games. So, although I like all the analysis - it comes down to that.

I think Keefe is a really smart coach.

[dckingsfan]

Also he would have reacted well, by becoming the best player ever in the 15 minutes a game his coach allowed him. Because in the past he has never lost momentum when benched for lesser players. Plus we would have played all 7 forwards on the team at the same time. We don't need guards anyway. Deni can play 5 positions at once if necessary.

Nice part about Deni, he IS a team player. Unlike the Kuz signings and meltdown - we wouldn't have seen that, IMO.

[doclinkin]

Very funny to realize we will probably get a part 2 of this thread.

As long as Deni continues to be better than any player this front office acquires, you will see a part three or maybe part four of this thread.

Bub just had his 10th 4+ 3 pt game of his ROOKIE year, haven’t seen talk of him in this thread for pages. But let everyone tell it we traded Deni for absolutely nothing. So yea, I definitely expect it to continue.

Right. And durable. Has played all 75 games so far. Plus led the team in minutes. Played 41 minutes against the Kings today. Didn't even miss a game with his father passing.

People put a cap on who he can become based on stats he is putting up as a teenager. But just to remind you. Deni put up worse numbers in many categories. Hell compare his numbers to HOFer Kobe:

https://stathead.com/tiny/OKYlh

Bub rebounds better, passes better, scores better from 2FG, shoots better at the FT line. Turns the ball over less, fouls less. Not saying he's going to be a HOFer like Kobe. Just saying you have no idea what he is going to become. As a PG he has a jumpstart over many others. In February he was shooting in the 50/40/90 club. No saying he will never put together more months like that. Or maybe multiple months. Eventually, seasons.

He's better than Deni in all those metrics but inside shooting and rebounding, but the fact that he is even close to the 6'9" forward should say a lot. Deni struggled to adjust to the league, shied from the spotlight. Faded when challenged at times. Bub has kept his head up in a truly hard run. Plays better as a starter. Added skills over the season. Has already hit multiple double doubles when it took Deni years to get his first.

I throw Tyus Jones in here as a comparator since he's another one-and-done teenager and his game is similar to Bub's. Passer with a midrange game. Though Bub's bigger. Rebounds way better. Scores better from the inside and midrange than Tyus did before he added a floater. Bub already has a midrange game that scores at an efficient rate. Tyus Jones took a couple years to get that skillset down. Hopefully Bub turns out better, but I've said it before, Tyus Jones with better defense would be a damned good start. A starter on a winning team.

[doclinkin]

Also he would have reacted well, by becoming the best player ever in the 15 minutes a game his coach allowed him. Because in the past he has never lost momentum when benched for lesser players. Plus we would have played all 7 forwards on the team at the same time. We don't need guards anyway. Deni can play 5 positions at once if necessary.

Nice part about Deni, he IS a team player. Unlike the Kuz signings and meltdown - we wouldn't have seen that, IMO.

We did see it. Have seen it. We had to trade Rui because Deni would go into a funk when benched. He broke out only after we cleared playing time for him to start. Great that he has reacted better in Portland, but here Deni even admitted he would get in his own head and take himself out of it for games at a time when he lost focus. Sulked. Whined to refs when he didn't get calls. Displayed hangdog body language. Complained to coaches and found himself sat down.

If he now has a different mindset, or if his outlook changed under Keefe, that's excellent. Based on his track record though it'd be fair to wonder how he would react to playing on a losing team and being benched when he knows he can affect the game. I agree with CCJ I think the change of scenery helped juice his surge this year. That his production is rewarded with play time and an increased role. If he were being benched for playing well, I don't think it would give the same confidence boost and positive feedback loop.

[DCZards]

The Wiz tanked on the 'strength' of Kyle Kuzma playing heavy minutes. Plus 3, now 4 rookies. And Bilal.

Deni plays the same position as Kyshawn. Bilal. Kuzma. And possibly Sarr, who at the time of the draft said he was a Forward.

With Deni we also wouldn't have had Bub. So minus one rookie.

We also would not have had an injured Malcolm Brogdon.

The more minutes of Deni, the less we lose in the +/-.

The more minutes of Kuzma, the more we lose.

But somehow we would have played Deni. And he would have broken out. But not won games. Because we would have benched him. But still could ship him for increased value. And Ted would not have blown a gasket for shipping a winning player mid-season. And the league would reward us for openly tanking by rigging the top pick our way. This year and next. And there is no chance we would have lost a draft pick. Because Deni + a top 6 pick is not good enough to win. So we still could gain a top 8 pick next year. But THAT would surely be enough for a championship.

I think I have it right. Yeah?

No. We would have kept him and not played him for two years, and no one here would have criticized the coach for doing so.

hehehe. You don't have to not play him. It isn't like we didn't play Jonas, we just played him less.

I think Keefe is the tank master. He knows EXACTLY how to go about losing games. So, although I like all the analysis - it comes down to that.

I think Keefe is a really smart coach.

JV was a past-his-prime big who was signed to be a part-time enforcer. Deni would have been the Zards best player having a breakout season.

There’s no way Keefe could have gotten away with giving Deni the JV treatment when it came to PT.

[TGW]

Carrington has such a long ways to go before he’s remotely a good basketball player. He’s a nice kid with a good touch on his jump shot. He’s doesn’t do much else. He doesn’t look like his projects to be anything more than a decent midrange shooter. He doesn’t drive, can’t finish when he does, he doesn’t initiate contact, he doesn’t play good defense. He’s pretty much everything I don’t want in a lead guard. So color me unimpressed with him so far as a prospect. I saw a helluva lot more in Deni as a rookie than I do with Carrington. Everything Deni is doing now is what I thought he would become when they drafted him.

[Despy]

Lol denis rookie season was a disaster and bub lookts 1000x better rofl

He was like 6ppg averaging 32mpg

[DCZards]

Carrington has such a long ways to go before he’s remotely a good basketball player. He’s a nice kid with a good touch on his jump shot. He’s doesn’t do much else. He doesn’t look like his projects to be anything more than a decent midrange shooter. He doesn’t drive, can’t finish when he does, he doesn’t initiate contact, he doesn’t play good defense. He’s pretty much everything I don’t want in a lead guard. So color me unimpressed with him so far as a prospect. I saw a helluva lot more in Deni as a rookie than I do with Carrington. Everything Deni is doing now is what I thought he would become when they drafted him.

You’re absolutely right about Bub’s shortcomings. He needs to get much better at finishing at the basket and drawing contact. No argument there.

But he’s already an above average midrange shooter, an above average rebounder for a PG, a better defender than you give him credit for, and a poised oncourt leader with a very good assist/TO ratio, especially for a 19 yr old who’s being asked to play more minutes than any rookie in the NBA.

Think about it. Many rookies hit a wall about two-thirds of the way through the season. Bub in his 76th game of the season just played 41 mins against a team competing for the playoffs…and scored 19 pts, had 7 assists, and knocked down 5 threes.

[TGW]

Lol denis rookie season was a disaster and bub lookts 1000x better rofl

He was like 6ppg averaging 32mpg

Well, it was more like 23 mpg, but don't let things like facts get in the way of your stupidity.

And Deni's value was on the defensive end of the court. That's why he played that many minutes on a good team. I know you really want to believe that Carrington's 9 points a game in 29 minutes on poor shooting percentages on one of the worst teams in NBA history is "100000000X times better than Deni" but in reality Bub and Deni had similar statisitical rookie seasons. Deni was just a better defender and that's what he brought to the court, not scoring.

[TGW]

You’re absolutely right about Bub’s shortcomings. He needs to get much better at finishing at the basket and drawing contact. No argument there.

But he’s already an above average midrange shooter, an above average rebounder for a PG, a better defender than you give him credit for, and a poised oncourt leader with a very good assist/TO ratio, especially for a 19 yr old who’s being asked to play more minutes than any rookie in the NBA.

Think about it. Many rookies hit a wall about two-thirds of the way through the season. Bub in his 76th game of the season just played 41 mins against a team competing for the playoffs…and scored 19 pts, had 7 assists, and knocked down 5 threes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Carrington is completely useless. He will stick in the NBA for awhile and has some NBA skills. My issue with Bub is mainly that I don't see much growth in his game. I think he's an average prospect with a low ceiling. I like guards that attack the paint and draw fouls, and are bulldogs defensively (think prime Kyle Lowry). Bub is a game manager that shoots the ball well off the dribble. His archtype is available in the 20's/second round every year IMO. Again, he'll stick because he has a useful nba skillset, but he's not a guy you build around.