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Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#621 » by Jadoogar » Fri Apr 4, 2025 5:12 pm

Merit wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Tripod wrote:The most confusing thing in here is some saying they would be quite fine with Simmons in our starting lineup. Crazy talk. Did Yak disappear?


Simmons isn't a center. A lot of people think he would be good in a Draymond type role but it's not a role Simmons has ever played before. It's not easy to turn someone into a center who has no center instincts. Raptors tried with the 6'9" experiment, it failed miserably.


Did it though? Pretty sure OKC is operation 69 present tense.


OKC runs 2 great centers?
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#622 » by tsherkin » Fri Apr 4, 2025 5:14 pm

Merit wrote:I was going to answer your question, but I don’t like feeling cornered.


Uh huh.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#623 » by JB7 » Fri Apr 4, 2025 5:47 pm

tsherkin wrote:
JB7 wrote:I agree, he doesn't have the touch that Magic had, and that should be the biggest focus for him, which could also turnaround his efficiency.


I think he's had focus on actually hitting shots for a while; that's why him not improving any is so concerning.

In terms of Scottie's numbers, what were they for the first half of his 3rd season, probably the best starting lineup structured around him, until now?


Who cares? That's a meaningless sample. He has a month or two of decent 3pt shooting every year, and outside of December (when he was rocking 52/40/77), he wasn't at even league average anyway.

I'm not saying Scottie is going to become Magic. It is merely that is how he views his game, as more all round, and therefore his impact will be felt in a number of different areas to help the team win, not just shooting/scoring.


I know, I got what you meant. Tried to make that clear mid-way, but probably should have started with that ;)

And while Penny and T-Mac might have originally thought of themselves in that mold, their body types were clearly not the same as Magic and Scottie's. Magic could play C & PF, as can Scottie.


Scottie can play 5 in a small-ball lineup. Magic jumped tip and played the 5 against Caldwell Jones. It isn't quite the same thing. Also, Magic was faster and a little taller. Didn't have a ton of elevation, but he had a pile of superior athletic traits compared to Scottie.


His shooting not seeming to improve is a concern, but he is only 4 years into his career. So maybe there is still some upside. But like Magic, his 3pt shooting percentages won't define his game.

And why I think that small sample size from the start of his 3rd season is interesting, is that is the only time the team was both competitive (had talent) and Scottie was more involved in running the team (no Fred). Let's see how his 4th season starts off with BQI.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#624 » by tsherkin » Fri Apr 4, 2025 5:56 pm

JB7 wrote:His shooting not seeming to improve is a concern, but he is only 4 years into his career. So maybe there is still some upside.


Unlikely. Not impossible, but quite unlikely at this stage.

But like Magic, his 3pt shooting percentages won't define his game.


Sure. His inability to score at league average or better isn't only due to his 3pt shooting, no doubt. And if he can only ever manage 30-32% from 3, there are still ways to be efficient. Unfortunately, he doesn't have those tools. Doesn't have the quickness and doesn't have the ability to get to, and finish at, the rim well. We'll see how far along THAT comes, if at all.

And why I think that small sample size from the start of his 3rd season is interesting, is that is the only time the team was both competitive (had talent) and Scottie was more involved in running the team (no Fred). Let's see how his 4th season starts off with BQI.


But again...

Year 1: 74 GP, 2.5 months of 35%+ shooting (about 75 3PA), including a 40% month
Year 2: 77 GP, 1 month of 35%+ (about 45 3PA)
Year 3: 60 GP, 2 months of 35%+ (about 165 3PA), including a 40% month
Year 4: 62 GP (and counting), 0 months of 29%+

This year, he's far worse than usual, so there's at least that to be... not happy, but not-sad about, I guess? But generally speaking, he gives you a month or 2 where the shot is falling. So nothing that happened in year 3 is that surprising, it just represented a little better because his season was so shortened that those months were a higher proportion of his season.

But ultimately, his 3pt shooting is far less concerning than his finishing inside 10 feet and his proportion of shots at the rim. His gross inefficiency in year 4 is comparable Year 2 (the other season where he shot under 30% from 3). There are many routes to efficiency; he just hasn't shown us that he can take them, and he has become a laborious project as a volume scorer, to the point of largely not being worth the effort. Past 4 seasons, guys who haven't shown it yet probably aren't going to. You'll find the odd exception, but it's typically in guys who showed at least SOMETHING earlier on. Lowry and his draw rate, playmaking and aggressive driving, for example. Even Kemba Walker had more shooting touch early than Barnes. Kawhi showed a lot very early on and had better tools, the Spurs were simply too good to need him to rush. Siakam followed a path more similar to someone like Hakeem in the sense of coming to the game late and showing rapid improvement in his shooting ability... and then exhibiting the ability to score efficiently around another focal player (something we haven't seen from Scottie to date). And of course Siakam is generally a better corner 3pt shooter than Barnes, and has been for years. These are the common examples we see in Barnes threads, which don't really line up with his specific issues or context.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#625 » by Merit » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:12 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Merit wrote:I was going to answer your question, but I don’t like feeling cornered.


Uh huh.


Kinda like that comment about my wasting your time, hey?
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#626 » by Merit » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:17 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
Merit wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Simmons isn't a center. A lot of people think he would be good in a Draymond type role but it's not a role Simmons has ever played before. It's not easy to turn someone into a center who has no center instincts. Raptors tried with the 6'9" experiment, it failed miserably.


Did it though? Pretty sure OKC is operation 69 present tense.


OKC runs 2 great centers?


Everyone on OKC has a wingspan of 6' 9" or more. I've read Lu having a 6'8" wingspan and a +5 wingspan (he's 6'4") so there's room for error, but yeah. They can switch 4/5 players onto most if starting Hartenstein, and if chet is the centre and caruso or wiggins come in, they can switch just about all positions.

I'm responding to you kindly instead of trolling by choice.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#627 » by tsherkin » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:26 pm

Merit wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Merit wrote:I was going to answer your question, but I don’t like feeling cornered.


Uh huh.


Kinda like that comment about my wasting your time, hey?


Doesn't seem to have improved much since. *shrug*
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#628 » by Merit » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:27 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Merit wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Uh huh.


Kinda like that comment about my wasting your time, hey?


Doesn't seem to have improved much since. *shrug*


I was going to let you have the last word, but my disagreeing with you doesn't equal my wasting your time. *shrug*
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#629 » by Jadoogar » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:34 pm

Merit wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Merit wrote:
Did it though? Pretty sure OKC is operation 69 present tense.


OKC runs 2 great centers?


Everyone on OKC has a wingspan of 6' 9" or more. I've read Lu having a 6'8" wingspan and a +5 wingspan (he's 6'4") so there's room for error, but yeah. They can switch 4/5 players onto most if starting Hartenstein, and if chet is the centre and caruso or wiggins come in, they can switch just about all positions.

I'm responding to you kindly instead of trolling by choice.


sure but that's not what our "vision 6'9" experiment was. OKC basically starts 2 centers. Our whole experiment was built around not using centers at all. I don't think our experiment is similar to OKC at all.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#630 » by Merit » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:40 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
Merit wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
OKC runs 2 great centers?


Everyone on OKC has a wingspan of 6' 9" or more. I've read Lu having a 6'8" wingspan and a +5 wingspan (he's 6'4") so there's room for error, but yeah. They can switch 4/5 players onto most if starting Hartenstein, and if chet is the centre and caruso or wiggins come in, they can switch just about all positions.

I'm responding to you kindly instead of trolling by choice.


sure but that's not what our "vision 6'9" experiment was. OKC basically starts 2 centers. Our whole experiment was built around not using centers at all. I don't think our experiment is similar to OKC at all.


They only got Hartenstein this year. Chet was their C last year. It applied then too. I think the focus was on mobility/switchability/center of gravity, not position. I hear you though. Bottom line: OKC has better players.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#631 » by Tripod » Fri Apr 4, 2025 7:40 pm

Yeah it's not a 6'9 lineup when you have a 7 footer and 7'1 guy...lol
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#632 » by tsherkin » Fri Apr 4, 2025 9:18 pm

Merit wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Merit wrote:
Kinda like that comment about my wasting your time, hey?


Doesn't seem to have improved much since. *shrug*


I was going to let you have the last word, but my disagreeing with you doesn't equal my wasting your time. *shrug*


I don't consider your disagreement the waste of my time, I agree :)
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#633 » by Merit » Fri Apr 4, 2025 10:05 pm

Tripod wrote:Yeah it's not a 6'9 lineup when you have a 7 footer and 7'1 guy...lol


Obviously if you can have players bigger than 6’9 that are equally skilled that’s better…

Like, I’d like to be 7 feet with my mobility too. I’d be in the NBA present tense.

…and Jaylin Williams is 6’8”, a C and has a plus wingspan too. He’s played a fair bit in switchy units for OKC too.
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