RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Jamaaliver]

Kareem won 2 finals MVPs

There's a good chance the old man was lumping in Lou Alcindor's three (3) NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player Awards.

You managed to not only get his name incorrect but you misspelled the incorrect name

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

[lessthanjake]

Well, to some extent, the proof is in the pudding, with Jordan ending up having more success in his career than LeBron, despite having left the game multiple times. If the guy who retired multiple times still ended up achieving/winning more in his career than the guy who played 22 straight seasons, I don’t think that’s a good fact for the guy who played 22 seasons.

Sounds a lot like load management which modern players get heavily criticized for. Modern players take a few games off during the season so they can be at peak readiness in the playoffs and they get slammed for not playing 82 games like the old guys. So which is it? Take as many games off as you need to get results, or play through everything or you're not tough.

Part of the reason Jordan's career arc looks so pristine compared to everyone other than Russell is that he had two false retirements which no one else did. We never saw him push through the lows. It would be one thing if people only focused on other players' highs. But that's not what happens. Players are picked apart because of their low points and then the argument is that Jordan never had low points.

The fact that he decided not to play when he was most likely to have those low points is a fair game critique especially in that context. He did more in less time? There is some degree of truth to that, but it comes with the caveat that the more was done in an, at least arguably, easier way.

Okay, so three things:

1. We did see Jordan “push through the lows.” He was the league’s best player for years before he won a title—losing repeatedly to the Pistons. He pushed through that and won 6 titles.

2. You talk about Jordan leaving basketball as equivalent to “load management” but I wouldn’t call playing another sport akin to “load management,” even if that sport is perhaps not quite as hard on your body as basketball can be.

3. The point I made isn’t that he “did more in less time.” It’s simply that he did more. The “less time” part is incidental. It is certainly possible that if he hadn’t taken breaks, he wouldn’t have won any more than he did. It’s even potentially possible he would’ve won less, if he hadn’t taken breaks—though I think taking yourself off the board for years at a time is likely a larger detriment than any potential rejuvenation is a positive, when it comes to overall chances of winning titles. It’s definitely possible that he might’ve won the same amount or perhaps more, but also have had a failure or two occur along the way that didn’t happen in reality (i.e. maybe instead of “6 out of 6 in Finals,” he might be 6 out of 7 in Finals or 7 out of 8 in Finals, or something like that). We don’t really know what would’ve happened. What we do know, however, is that in reality he was able to win more titles than LeBron has. The fact that Jordan may have left titles on the table through retirement or may have had more failures if he’d not taken some time off is all hypothetical and doesn’t detract from the fact that in reality he did actually win more. Even if Jordan was so intense that he couldn’t sustain his level of intensity for decades straight, that still left him with a better legacy.

[michaelm]

Kareem won 2 finals MVPs

There's a good chance the old man was lumping in Lou Alcindor's three (3) NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player Awards.

You managed to not only get his name incorrect but you misspelled the incorrect name

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

Ah, the spelling police. Always a sign of someone equipped with strong arguments.

It is a pedantic point which I wouldn't choose to make myself, but I believe he was still Alcindor when he was an NCAA player.

[michaelm]

If we look at actual basketball, MJ and LeBron are on the same tier. The one difference is the 2011 Finals, which is enough to knock LeBron down a hair. It's not that big of a difference, but when it comes to the level they're at, it's enough.

Is it though, or is this a double standard we apply because we scrutinize LeBron at a granular level we dont apply to Jordan?

LeBron was 26 during that series. Jordan was at the same age in 89. That year he had a 2-1 series advantage against the Pistons. He had already been league MVP and DPOY. He loses the next three games.

In game four, the greatest scorer ever has just 23 points on 33% shooting in a game they lose by six. He only made two baskets in the last three periods of the game. They were down six with 2 minutes to go. His teammates taken more shots than he does in the final two minutes and he misses a free throw that could have made it a four point game with 30 seconds to go.

In game five, the Bulls were just one point behind entering the fourth quarter. He only scores 1 point the rest of the way, 0 in the final 9:30. In total he had just 18 points in the game and was outscored by his teammate Craig Hodges and two Pistons players.

In game six he has 8 turnovers and continues the trend of poor fourth quarter scoring. He gets four quick points in the first minute, then scores just two the rest of the way. The Bulls have the ball with 8:30 left and have a chance to tie or go ahead. Jordan gets stripped turning it over. He misses a three attempt around the five minute mark, then misses two free throws around the 4 minute mark. His final 2 points come at 3:06.

Each of the last three games were winnable in the fourth, and in each, he disappeared as the Pistons took over and won. He averaged 24 ppg in those final three games on 44% shooting.

But he learned from that and got better. Why does Jordan get to fail at age 26, choking away a winnable series with terrible fourth quarter play three consecutive games and still be the GOAT while LeBron doing the same at the same age is permanently eliminated from that conversation?

Both players got better as players after bad losses to great teams that successfully game planned against them and had them flumoxed in critical moments. Both players squandered 2-1 series leads. Both players were deferring to teammates in crucial moments instead of relentlessly attacking the other team's defenses.

LeBron after 2011 materially improved his game by adding to his skill set and the limitations that cost him the 2011 series never again cost him a series. He also changed his mindset and never again lost a series by playing as passively as he did in that 2011 series.

Eliminating a player from GOAT contention because of a bad series that happened while he still improving as a player makes no sense, especially if the same standard isn't applied to the other guy who did the same thing at the same age.

I'm sure people will point out that Jordan in the series averaged 11 ppg more than LeBron in 11 and 9 ppg more in the three consecutive losses. Yep, no argument. It doesn't matter. Three straight games were winnable in the fourth and Jordan choked them away each time.

I don't like evaluating players that way, but the double standards need to stop. Jordan wasn't the perfect flawless player without blemishes on his record he's often made out to be. I would rather focus more on the great things the players did than get ridiculously granular about their losses, but if LeBron is going to get examined that way, it's only fair to give Jordan the same treatment.

What Jordan learned was that he needed to be a team player to win. That is also why I rate Bill Russell and Tim Duncan so highly in what is a team game, although he wasn't quite as much a team player as those guys were.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That's what it comes down to. There are zero series where you can say "if MJ played like MJ, the Bulls would have won" because MJ always played like MJ. LeBron one time did not, and unfortunately yes, it happening in the Finals does matter in these conversations

I just gave you one. He was not up to his standards in three straight games especially in crunch time and it cost them a winnable series. The overall stats doesn't change the reality that he faded when it mattered most that series. Those fourth quarters were not GOAT material. Title winning GOAT MJ doesnt do that, but 89 MJ did and for some reason he gets a free pass while LeBron is disqualified from GOAT.

Again, both players significantly improved because of their underperformance in these two series and what happened next is why they are GOAT tier. Listen to the Pistons talk about that series. They figured him out and shut him down. The next year they couldn't and they shifted focus to his teammates as the weak link to attack, and that only barely worked.

By the way, two guys in the GOAT conversation were Championship caliber the instant that walked into the league: Kareem and Russell. If LeBron can be disqualified for his 2011 before he was the best version of himself, MJ is too for his slow start and need for growth which Russell and Kareem didn't have or need.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What Jordan learned was that he needed to be a team player to win. That is also why I rate Bill Russell and Tim Duncan so highly in what is a team game, although wasn't quite as much a team player as those guys were.

Jordan and LeBron were similar in this respect but from opposite directions. Jordan needed to trust his teammates more and give them more opportunity before he could be the best version of himself.

By the way, this is not all on Jordan either. Jackson actually came up with a plan to make that happen and Collins didn't, so even if MJ had the right mindset, the need for better coaching was a barrier to winning in 89.

LeBron needed to learn to take over instead of trying to always "make the right play". The tension in the who is the main guy the Heat were working through the whole season, and LeBron's willingness to defer when he should be forcing the issue ultimately cost them that series.

Both got better as a result and oddly, both needed to become more like the other to reach their peaks.

By the way, Magic had a similar hurdle he needed to overcome in the mid 80s. He was used to deferring to Kareem and had to be told by Riley it was time for him to step to the front. He didn't want to step on Kareem's toes and that tripped them up a bit for a while.

[DOT]

There's a good chance the old man was lumping in Lou Alcindor's three (3) NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player Awards.

You managed to not only get his name incorrect but you misspelled the incorrect name

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

Ah, the spelling police. Always a sign of someone equipped with strong arguments.

It is a pedantic point which I wouldn't choose to make myself, but I believe he was still Alcindor when he was an NCAA player.

He was

But nobody says "Lou Alcindor did this in college", they say Kareem did it. Because that's his name

I mean, Jamaaliver has been proven to be just a troll, intentionally getting information wrong, posting conflicting points and pretending like they're the same, doing a whole "Just Asking Questions" shtick

I'm just calling out trolling.

[Jamaaliver]

He was

But nobody says "Lou Alcindor did this in college", they say Kareem did it. Because that's his name

I mean, Jamaaliver has been proven to be just a troll, intentionally getting information wrong, posting conflicting points and pretending like they're the same, doing a whole "Just Asking Questions" shtick

I'm just calling out trolling.

I think you're taking this very fun debate waaaay too seriously.

[michaelm]

You managed to not only get his name incorrect but you misspelled the incorrect name

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

Ah, the spelling police. Always a sign of someone equipped with strong arguments.

It is a pedantic point which I wouldn't choose to make myself, but I believe he was still Alcindor when he was an NCAA player.

He was

But nobody says "Lou Alcindor did this in college", they say Kareem did it. Because that's his name

I mean, Jamaaliver has been proven to be just a troll, intentionally getting information wrong, posting conflicting points and pretending like they're the same, doing a whole "Just Asking Questions" shtick

I'm just calling out trolling.

As I said it is at best a pedantic point I wouldn't make myself.

[michaelm]

What Jordan learned was that he needed to be a team player to win. That is also why I rate Bill Russell and Tim Duncan so highly in what is a team game, although wasn't quite as much a team player as those guys were.

Jordan and LeBron were similar in this respect but from opposite directions. Jordan needed to trust his teammates more and give them more opportunity before he could be the best version of himself.

By the way, this is not all on Jordan either. Jackson actually came up with a plan to make that happen and Collins didn't, so even if MJ had the right mindset, the need for better coaching was a barrier to winning in 89.

LeBron needed to learn to take over instead of trying to always "make the right play". The tension in the who is the main guy the Heat were working through the whole season, and LeBron's willingness to defer when he should be forcing the issue ultimately cost them that series.

Both got better as a result and oddly, both needed to become more like the other to reach their peaks.

By the way, Magic had a similar hurdle he needed to overcome in the mid 80s. He was used to deferring to Kareem and had to be told by Riley it was time for him to step to the front. He didn't want to step on Kareem's toes and that tripped them up a bit for a while.

For someone who likes to look at the positive aspects of players you are certainly not averse to finding spurious negatives/caveats in regard to Jordan. Why does it matter if Phl Jackson came up with a more team game plan to which Jordan acceded or was persuaded to accept ?. The point is that he became a more team player, reluctantly or otherwise. The same as your continuing spurious argument about Jordan taking 18 months off, the point is that he was an FMVP in all 3 title wins in a threepeat in his 30s, a peak achievement very few if any other players have achieved at any age, if only because there was no such award in Bill Russell’s day, and which if I am to be hypothetical myself I strongly doubt any of his contemporaries could have achieved had they had a similar hiatus themselves.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What Jordan learned was that he needed to be a team player to win. That is also why I rate Bill Russell and Tim Duncan so highly in what is a team game, although wasn't quite as much a team player as those guys were.

Jordan and LeBron were similar in this respect but from opposite directions. Jordan needed to trust his teammates more and give them more opportunity before he could be the best version of himself.

By the way, this is not all on Jordan either. Jackson actually came up with a plan to make that happen and Collins didn't, so even if MJ had the right mindset, the need for better coaching was a barrier to winning in 89.

LeBron needed to learn to take over instead of trying to always "make the right play". The tension in the who is the main guy the Heat were working through the whole season, and LeBron's willingness to defer when he should be forcing the issue ultimately cost them that series.

Both got better as a result and oddly, both needed to become more like the other to reach their peaks.

By the way, Magic had a similar hurdle he needed to overcome in the mid 80s. He was used to deferring to Kareem and had to be told by Riley it was time for him to step to the front. He didn't want to step on Kareem's toes and that tripped them up a bit for a while.

For someone who likes to look at the positive aspects of players you are certainly not averse to finding spurious negatives/caveats in regard to Jordan. Why does it matter if Phl Jackson came up with a more team game plan to which Jordan acceded or was persuaded to accept ?. The point is that he became a more team player, reluctantly or otherwise. The same as your continuing spurious argument about Jordan taking 18 months off, the point is that he was an FMVP in all 3 title wins in a threepeat in his 30s, a peak achievement very few if any other players have achieved at any age, if only because there was no such award in Bill Russell’s day, and which if I am to be hypothetical myself I strongly doubt any of his contemporaries could have achieved had they had a similar hiatus themselves.

That was a criticism of Collins not than Jordan. You had just said Jordan needed to learn a more team oriented game, and I agree, but that was a coaching issue, not a Jordan issue. If he had Jackson sooner, he'd have learned that sooner. That's not his fault. He didn't have the right coaching yet. He was willing to listen and change his game so the team could succeed. That a positive not a negative.

[DOT]

He was

But nobody says "Lou Alcindor did this in college", they say Kareem did it. Because that's his name

I mean, Jamaaliver has been proven to be just a troll, intentionally getting information wrong, posting conflicting points and pretending like they're the same, doing a whole "Just Asking Questions" shtick

I'm just calling out trolling.

I think you're taking this very fun debate waaaay too seriously.

You're not "debating", you're trolling

I should've just reported and moved on, my fault for feeding the troll. Congrats, you win, you got me to engage

Kinda pathetic you get to troll without being put on mute. But I guess that's the whole idea, so good for you

Maybe you're not trolling though, maybe you're just stupid. In that case I feel sorry for you and offer my sincerest condolences, cause you can fix being a troll, but you can't fix being stupid, that's just something you gotta live with.

[michaelm]

Jordan and LeBron were similar in this respect but from opposite directions. Jordan needed to trust his teammates more and give them more opportunity before he could be the best version of himself.

By the way, this is not all on Jordan either. Jackson actually came up with a plan to make that happen and Collins didn't, so even if MJ had the right mindset, the need for better coaching was a barrier to winning in 89.

LeBron needed to learn to take over instead of trying to always "make the right play". The tension in the who is the main guy the Heat were working through the whole season, and LeBron's willingness to defer when he should be forcing the issue ultimately cost them that series.

Both got better as a result and oddly, both needed to become more like the other to reach their peaks.

By the way, Magic had a similar hurdle he needed to overcome in the mid 80s. He was used to deferring to Kareem and had to be told by Riley it was time for him to step to the front. He didn't want to step on Kareem's toes and that tripped them up a bit for a while.

For someone who likes to look at the positive aspects of players you are certainly not averse to finding spurious negatives/caveats in regard to Jordan. Why does it matter if Phl Jackson came up with a more team game plan to which Jordan acceded or was persuaded to accept ?. The point is that he became a more team player, reluctantly or otherwise. The same as your continuing spurious argument about Jordan taking 18 months off, the point is that he was an FMVP in all 3 title wins in a threepeat in his 30s, a peak achievement very few if any other players have achieved at any age, if only because there was no such award in Bill Russell’s day, and which if I am to be hypothetical myself I strongly doubt any of his contemporaries could have achieved had they had a similar hiatus themselves.

That was a criticism of Collins not than Jordan. You had just said Jordan needed to learn a more team oriented game, and I agree, but that was a coaching issue, not a Jordan issue. If he had Jackson sooner, he'd have learned that sooner. That's not his fault. He didn't have the right coaching yet. He was willing to listen and change his game so the team could succeed. That a positive not a negative.

Fair enough, that is a reasonable point. I do get tired of all those who are wont to attribute Jordan’s success to anyone but him, but accept this was not what you were doing.

[ReggiesKnicks]

For someone who likes to look at the positive aspects of players you are certainly not averse to finding spurious negatives/caveats in regard to Jordan. Why does it matter if Phl Jackson came up with a more team game plan to which Jordan acceded or was persuaded to accept ?. The point is that he became a more team player, reluctantly or otherwise. The same as your continuing spurious argument about Jordan taking 18 months off, the point is that he was an FMVP in all 3 title wins in a threepeat in his 30s, a peak achievement very few if any other players have achieved at any age, if only because there was no such award in Bill Russell’s day, and which if I am to be hypothetical myself I strongly doubt any of his contemporaries could have achieved had they had a similar hiatus themselves.

That was a criticism of Collins not than Jordan. You had just said Jordan needed to learn a more team oriented game, and I agree, but that was a coaching issue, not a Jordan issue. If he had Jackson sooner, he'd have learned that sooner. That's not his fault. He didn't have the right coaching yet. He was willing to listen and change his game so the team could succeed. That a positive not a negative.

Fair enough, that is a reasonable point. I do get tired of all those who are wont to attribute Jordan’s success to anyone but him, but accept this was not what you were doing.

Do you get tired of all those who won't attribute LeBron's success to himself and will consistently bring up anyone (his teammates) but himself as to why his teams were successful?

As a bystander and consumer of the mediocrity that is this thread, that seems to be a major sticking point for the Anti-LeBron crowd around here.

[Jamaaliver]

I must say, as a guy fortunate enough to witness the prime years of Jordan, Kobe and LeBron...it's very different watching a career (with all its ups and downs) play out in real time vs just looking back at high lights and low lights decades later.

There is a ton of context and nuance just completely missed looking back at it purely academically.

[Jamaaliver]

^For Example:

At what point does Nikola Jokic become a part of the GOAT debate?

He has the production, the accolades. Only thing missing is multiple titles. IF N!K0LA wins this postseason, is at least in the 2nd or 3rd tier of the GOAT Debate?

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[michaelm]

That was a criticism of Collins not than Jordan. You had just said Jordan needed to learn a more team oriented game, and I agree, but that was a coaching issue, not a Jordan issue. If he had Jackson sooner, he'd have learned that sooner. That's not his fault. He didn't have the right coaching yet. He was willing to listen and change his game so the team could succeed. That a positive not a negative.

Fair enough, that is a reasonable point. I do get tired of all those who are wont to attribute Jordan’s success to anyone but him, but accept this was not what you were doing.

Do you get tired of all those who won't attribute LeBron's success to himself and will consistently bring up anyone (his teammates) but himself as to why his teams were successful?

As a bystander and consumer of the mediocrity that is this thread, that seems to be a major sticking point for the Anti-LeBron crowd around here.

Of course LeBron was overwhelmingly the major factor in the winning of all 4 titles his teams have won, and a couple of clutch shots made by other players are I agree over emphasised because those shots wouldn’t have won games without LeBron’s prior efforts.

That Jordan had great teams built around him
Is a major part of his greatness for me however, and he made Phil Jackson at least as much as Phil Jackson made him, while recognising he needed to change his approach to have sustained success and that Phil might have a better approach, and recognising this was also to his credit imo.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[OldSchoolNoBull]

It's probably true that Kareem couldn't do what Jokic is doing some respects(playmaking), but when Kerr says "I played against Kareem"...I mean, Kerr's rookie year was Kareem's last year. He played against 41 year old Kareem.

[al bondiga]

This is a dumb conversation... So I guess i'm another dummy And my ego got the best of me so I have to give you my opinion... Without a question MJ Is the best Overall basketball player of all time.

Even his obsession With being the best, tells You unequivocally, who was the best

My personal favorite is Larry bird, He did the best with body he had... But let's get real, Larry might not even be top 10 when you take into account athleticism, endurance, quality of competitors, etc, etc