Building around Coby-Giddey-Matas

[PlayerUp]

We really need at least 1 major player in the NBA Lottery.

[DuckIII]

You gotta build from somewhere. OKC didn't know when it started to build that SGA would be the league's MVP. Cleveland didn't have a true MVP candidate when it started its process, and it still doesn't. Nor does Boston (although Tatum is closer).

One of those 3 teams will quite likely win the title this year, yet none of them started to build around a guy who was regarded at the time as being a superstar. (As with, say, Wemby, Luka, or ZIon when they were rookies.)

My point being, we need not and should not await lottery-pick magic. Let's start with these 3 guys, see if they continue to improve, and if they do continue to improve, figure out how to find the additional pieces that we need. Because now, for the first time in several years, we actually have something.

What are you guys even debating anymore? The Bulls are clearly building around Giddey, Coby and Buzelis. And I don’t really even see anyone who doesn’t want them to do that.

The Bulls real situation vs. the strategic benefits of tanking are not intersecting here. The only issue for debate is how quickly AK should attempt to add “impact” players to hasten wins.

I'll add that coming into the season, I was under the impression that we had zero young players who were good enough to build around. Matas was just someone I couldn't rule out because he hadn't played. Now we're looking at having 3 core pieces. That's amazing. I would have thought we were 3 seasons from being here.

Coby is playing elite basketball and there are new and different signs it might stick. But I’ve seen his peaks and valleys too many times to just accept that he is a genuine keeper at the amount of $ you have to pay core keepers. Luckily we have a whole additional year, unless he will extend reasonably, to see if he can maintain it.

Giddey has shown enough. He’s core and like or not we will just have to build around his weaknesses. The strengths are too important to disregard.

But Buzelis is really what potentially changes everything. The ceiling is there for a real franchise player and he blends extremely well with Giddey and White unlike our prior “Big 3.”

[coldfish]

Its my hope that AK doesn't panic and cash it all in on another fake star like Vucevic.

Did you enjoy Adam and Stacey’s discussion last night about the rumor of the Bulls trading for Sabonis this summer?

Didn't hear it but that would be par for the course. Let me guess, 3 unprotected first rounders.

[coldfish]

What are you guys even debating anymore? The Bulls are clearly building around Giddey, Coby and Buzelis. And I don’t really even see anyone who doesn’t want them to do that.

The Bulls real situation vs. the strategic benefits of tanking are not intersecting here. The only issue for debate is how quickly AK should attempt to add “impact” players to hasten wins.

I'll add that coming into the season, I was under the impression that we had zero young players who were good enough to build around. Matas was just someone I couldn't rule out because he hadn't played. Now we're looking at having 3 core pieces. That's amazing. I would have thought we were 3 seasons from being here.

Coby is playing elite basketball and there are new and different signs it might stick. But I’ve seen his peaks and valleys too many times to just accept that he is a genuine keeper at the amount of $ you have to pay core keepers. Luckily we have a whole additional year, unless he will extend reasonably, to see if he can maintain it.

Giddey has shown enough. He’s core and like or not we will just have to build around his weaknesses. The strengths are too important to disregard.

But Buzelis is really what potentially changes everything. The ceiling is there for a real franchise player and he blends extremely well with Giddey and White unlike our prior “Big 3.”

Buzelis is really a game changer in that he doesn't have some theoretical glaring weakness. He can shoot, handle the ball, rebound and play defense. Play on or off ball. With some bulk, can probably play the 3 or 4. Players like that are extremely valuable in team building.

[DuckIII]

Its my hope that AK doesn't panic and cash it all in on another fake star like Vucevic.

Did you enjoy Adam and Stacey’s discussion last night about the rumor of the Bulls trading for Sabonis this summer?

Didn't hear it but that would be par for the course. Let me guess, 3 unprotected first rounders.

No details. Just the rumor. I fully expect some variety of this to happen this summer. Not necessarily with Sabo specifically, but I’m convinced now that this run will produce an “aggressive rebuild” this summer that will spray diarrhea all over what could have produced something that actually matters.

With many fans running around in the spray gleefully like it’s a splash pad on a hot day.

[DuckIII]

I'll add that coming into the season, I was under the impression that we had zero young players who were good enough to build around. Matas was just someone I couldn't rule out because he hadn't played. Now we're looking at having 3 core pieces. That's amazing. I would have thought we were 3 seasons from being here.

Coby is playing elite basketball and there are new and different signs it might stick. But I’ve seen his peaks and valleys too many times to just accept that he is a genuine keeper at the amount of $ you have to pay core keepers. Luckily we have a whole additional year, unless he will extend reasonably, to see if he can maintain it.

Giddey has shown enough. He’s core and like or not we will just have to build around his weaknesses. The strengths are too important to disregard.

But Buzelis is really what potentially changes everything. The ceiling is there for a real franchise player and he blends extremely well with Giddey and White unlike our prior “Big 3.”

Buzelis is really a game changer in that he doesn't have some theoretical glaring weakness. He can shoot, handle the ball, rebound and play defense. Play on or off ball. With some bulk, can probably play the 3 or 4. Players like that are extremely valuable in team building.

He also has uniquely high plus athleticism in numerous areas. And he appears to have the will and intensity. The ingredients are there for a potential franchise player.

[Infinity2152]

I don't think some know what build through the draft means. We have like 3 young lottery players starting. The point of building through the draft is to have 4-5 talented young players. Coby White (25), #7 pick and he's young. Patrick Williams (23) #4 pick and he's young. Josh Giddey (22). Matas Buzelis (20) #11 pick. You might not like Pat, but he's clearly a high pick. Other Bulls draft picks on the team, Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Ayo Dosunmu, most of the team is very young players and recent draft picks. Literally half the team has been drafted in the last 4-5 years. And we're adding a lottery pick this year.

You're not talking about building through the draft. We already have a ton of recently drafted players. They're obsessed with the only way to get a superstar is through the draft. Most of them wanted to trade our young talent Giddey and Coby, to "build through the draft", ie, replacing young players with younger players. You can't build anything if you don't want to pay the players you drafted. Nothing but complaints about all their contracts (Giddey, Coby, Pat) but you want to build thru the draft, lol. Want to get rid of Terry and Phillips too, literally want to build thru the draft by getting rid of our recent draftees. Then after AK gets rid of all young drafted players, he doesn't believe in building through the draft. Even though he keeps giving our young draft picks contracts.

Little doubt when he was hired, it was to turn the Bulls into an immediate contender around Zach. Which is pretty tough. No way he makes the moves he makes if the organization wanted to "build through the draft" and tank at that point with Lavine.

[DuckIII]

My god your posts are just one sentence after another of straw men.

[Houston_Bulls]

....
"I like the cut of your jib. You're hired! Together we will strive to make the Play-In on a yearly basis."

Winning isn't solely the result of individual talent. When you tank, it is very hard to get the stench of losing out of the building. Tanking for multiple seasons changes the character of the franchise in ways that are hard to reverse.

Tanking usually isn't worth it, especially in the modern NBA where the global talent pool is so much deeper, teams have far greater parity, dynasties don't exist, and Giannis gets drafter in the middle of the first round.

[Infinity2152]

My god your posts are just one sentence after another of straw men.

My god, your response is just one sentence that has nothing to do with basketball. Block me PLEASE, then you won't see my posts and they won't bother you.

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

Now which one of us is talking about something that's not under discussion? The topic is building around Coby, Matas, and Giddey. There's no argument under discussion here. If the argument is should we build around Coby, Giddey and Matas, that's directly related to building thru the draft. As in, you can't say get rid of our draft pick players but we should build thru the draft. If you want a distinction, Giddey's not technically our draft pick, but we acquired him on his rookie contract.

You're in here trying to give etiquette lessons, but I'm not sticking to the subject, lmao! What you commented was specifically about building around Coby, Giddey and Matas, right?

[Ice Man]

What are you guys even debating anymore? The Bulls are clearly building around Giddey, Coby and Buzelis. And I don’t really even see anyone who doesn’t want them to do that.

Well, fair enough. I was just talking out loud, getting myself adjusted to the new reality. Because as you know, that's not how we thought until quite recently.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

Its my hope that AK doesn't panic and cash it all in on another fake star like Vucevic.

Did you enjoy Adam and Stacey’s discussion last night about the rumor of the Bulls trading for Sabonis this summer?

I truly would never tune in again if they got another ground bound center

[DuckIII]

misplaced post

[Infinity2152]

What are you guys even debating anymore? The Bulls are clearly building around Giddey, Coby and Buzelis. And I don’t really even see anyone who doesn’t want them to do that.

Well, fair enough. I was just talking out loud, getting myself adjusted to the new reality. Because as you know, that's not how we thought until quite recently.

Not allowed to express yourself freely. I'm seeing more and more frequently petty discussions trying to tell people what they can and can't talk about in here. Don't worry bro, I support your freedom of speech.

Hilariously, the person commenting last comments before trying to check us had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic and is talking about a trade for Sabonis. News flash, this ain't the trade thread. Nobody crapped on him though.

[Chi town]

Its my hope that AK doesn't panic and cash it all in on another fake star like Vucevic.

Did you enjoy Adam and Stacey’s discussion last night about the rumor of the Bulls trading for Sabonis this summer?

I truly would never tune in again if they got another ground bound center

Sabonis is the exact opposite player we need at C.

Our offense actually looks best when Collins is out there because the ball moves better and we get more easy buckets due to better D with Collins protecting the rim.

NO SABONIS.

[Chi town]

What are you guys even debating anymore? The Bulls are clearly building around Giddey, Coby and Buzelis. And I don’t really even see anyone who doesn’t want them to do that.

The Bulls real situation vs. the strategic benefits of tanking are not intersecting here. The only issue for debate is how quickly AK should attempt to add “impact” players to hasten wins.

I'll add that coming into the season, I was under the impression that we had zero young players who were good enough to build around. Matas was just someone I couldn't rule out because he hadn't played. Now we're looking at having 3 core pieces. That's amazing. I would have thought we were 3 seasons from being here.

Coby is playing elite basketball and there are new and different signs it might stick. But I’ve seen his peaks and valleys too many times to just accept that he is a genuine keeper at the amount of $ you have to pay core keepers. Luckily we have a whole additional year, unless he will extend reasonably, to see if he can maintain it.

Giddey has shown enough. He’s core and like or not we will just have to build around his weaknesses. The strengths are too important to disregard.

But Buzelis is really what potentially changes everything. The ceiling is there for a real franchise player and he blends extremely well with Giddey and White unlike our prior “Big 3.”

What are the new and different signs for Coby?

What do you see Giddey becoming?

What do you see Buz’s progression looking like into that franchise player?

[DuckIII]

Alright, I'll do this again.

I don't think some know what build through the draft means. We have like 3 young lottery players starting. The point of building through the draft is to have 4-5 talented young players.

Straw man. Or strawman! No one in the history of the world has ever said "the reason to rebuild through the draft is to have 4-5 young talented players." The reason to rebuild through the draft is because it is a unique opportunity to get a legitimate franchise player. Or even more than one.

The importance of this distinction to illustrating your latest in a constant flow of intellectually dishonest recharacterizations of points actually made follows:

Coby White (25), #7 pick and he's young. Patrick Williams (23) #4 pick and he's young. Josh Giddey (22). Matas Buzelis (20) #11 pick. You might not like Pat, but he's clearly a high pick. Other Bulls draft picks on the team, Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Ayo Dosunmu, most of the team is very young players and recent draft picks. Literally half the team has been drafted in the last 4-5 years. And we're adding a lottery pick this year.

Yes. Your straw man that the Bulls "built through the draft" is on full display. When people talk about rebuilding through the draft, they are not talking about having a bunch of mid and late lottery picks, late first round picks, and second round picks that aren't superstar talents. No one - no one at all - wants to be young just to be young. They want to be young as a path to get elite talent. The whole roster could be 19 years old and it would not mean anything to whether or not the Bulls have properly used the draft under AK to build the way people actually advocate that it be done rather than the made up reasons you create and then knock down.

You're not talking about building through the draft.

When I'm actually talking about that, it is. But we aren't doing a tank-based draft rebuild. We just happen to have draft picks that we've used when the clock started ticking on our selection. There was no strategy to it. Its just the way the season ended after the Bulls tried to win as much as possible. That is the antithesis of "building through the draft" in the way people actually use the term.

We already have a ton of recently drafted players. They're obsessed with the only way to get a superstar is through the draft.

Straw man, one of your favorites: That fans who advocate draft based rebuilds believe its "the only way to get a superstar." Its about likelihoods, not certainties, which has been pointed out to you maybe a hundred times and yet - the same straw man. As always.

Most of them wanted to trade our young talent Giddey and Coby, to "build through the draft", ie, replacing young players with younger players.

Giddey had some haters early on. But I don't see a board where "most" want to trade Giddey and Coby. Though for me its certainly an option depending on what the trade offers are and what they expect to be paid. But again, these are sliding scale issues not absolutes so, straw man.

You can't build anything if you don't want to pay the players you drafted. Nothing but complaints about all their contracts (Giddey, Coby, Pat) but you want to build thru the draft, lol.

So, I don't want to build through the draft. I did want to, but AK already blew that opportunity years ago and now we find ourselves in a different situation. So not really a straw man, just a lie about about someone's opinion.

And yes you can build by not paying your young players. Often times paying your young players is a crippling mistake. Not sure how crippling it will be, but hard to say Pat's contract doesn't like like a hell of a mistake today. You have to acquire, and then pay, the right players. And if you don't have the right players, you need to let the wrong ones go and keep searching.

Want to get rid of Terry and Phillips too, literally want to build thru the draft by getting rid of our recent draftees.

Again, the fate of late first round and second round picks like these guys have nothing to do with what people are actually talking about when talking about building through the draft. Building through the draft means positioning yourself to get very, very high picks.

Then after AK gets rid of all young drafted players, he doesn't believe in building through the draft. Even though he keeps giving our young draft picks contracts.

I'm not sure how many times you can use this same straw man in the same post, but this is not what building through the draft means except in the fake definition you've given it to burn down your straw man.

Little doubt when he was hired, it was to turn the Bulls into an immediate contender around Zach. Which is pretty tough. No way he makes the moves he makes if the organization wanted to "build through the draft" and tank at that point with Lavine.

How'd you crack that mystery? Was it because he publicly told us he intended to rebuild as fast as possible, never see the lottery again, and then immediately started doing just that his very first full year on the job?

I can do this with every transparently intellectually dishonest post you write. That I often chose to do so with a one liner instead, or just ignore them altogether, is because doing this is time consuming, boring, and won't change anything about the same tired old sad sack of crap you write on this subject every day.

[2weekswithpay]

Winning isn't solely the result of individual talent. When you tank, it is very hard to get the stench of losing out of the building. Tanking for multiple seasons changes the character of the franchise in ways that are hard to reverse.

Tanking usually isn't worth it, especially in the modern NBA where the global talent pool is so much deeper, teams have far greater parity, dynasties don't exist, and Giannis gets drafter in the middle of the first round.

The Thunder had no issues getting rid of the stench of losing. The Sixers didn't have this issue either, they became a 50-win team the moment Embiid and Simmons were healthy.

[Houston_Bulls]

One of the secrets to NBA success is finding undervalued assets. The best franchises of the post Jordan era were able to find high level contributors for less money than they were worth. The Spurs convinced Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobli to take less money; they also signed very good role players who the rest of the league undervalued.

The Lakers brought in guys who were slightly underrated: Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Anthony Davis, Rajon Rondo, Austin Reaves, etc.

The Celtics got Al Horford, Kristaps Porzingis, Jrue Holiday, and Derrick White for way less than what they are worth.

Josh Giddey and Coby White fit the mold of guys who will be underpaid. Coby White is seen as an undersized 2 guard with mediocre athleticism. Josh Giddey is seen as a slow white guy who can't shoot. In reality, Coby White is a 6'5" combo guard who dunks on seven footers, and Josh Giddey is a 6'7" monster who just put up a 15/19/12 triple double. He has also been an incredibly efficient three point shooter.

Giddey is a guy who could simultaneously be a top 15-20 player and not make the All Star game. Those are the type of guys who help you win championships.

[Infinity2152]

Alright, I'll do this again.

I don't think some know what build through the draft means. We have like 3 young lottery players starting. The point of building through the draft is to have 4-5 talented young players.

Straw man. Or strawman! No one in the history of the world has every seed "the reason to rebuild through the draft is to have 4-5 talented players." The reason to rebuild through the draft is because it is a unique opportunity to get a legitimate franchise player. Or even more than one.

This importance of this distinction to illustrating your latest in a constant flow of intellectually dishonest recharacteraizations of points actually made follows:

Coby White (25), #7 pick and he's young. Patrick Williams (23) #4 pick and he's young. Josh Giddey (22). Matas Buzelis (20) #11 pick. You might not like Pat, but he's clearly a high pick. Other Bulls draft picks on the team, Dalen Terry, Julian Phillips, Ayo Dosunmu, most of the team is very young players and recent draft picks. Literally half the team has been drafted in the last 4-5 years. And we're adding a lottery pick this year.

Yes. Your straw man that the Bulls "built through the draft" is on full display. When people talk about rebuilding through the draft, they are not talking about having a bunch of mid and late lottery picks, late first round picks, and second round picks that aren't superstar talents. No one - no one at all - wants to be young just to be young. They want to be young as a path to get elite talent. The whole roster could be 19 years old and it would not mean anything to whether or not the Bulls have properly used the draft under AK to build the way people actually advocate that it be done rather than the made up reasons you create and then knock down.

You're not talking about building through the draft.

When I'm actually talking about that, it is. But we aren't doing a tank-based draft rebuild. We just happen to have draft picks that we've used when the clock started ticking on our selection.

We already have a ton of recently drafted players. They're obsessed with the only way to get a superstar is through the draft.

Straw man, one of your favorites. That fans who advocate draft based rebuilds believe its "the only way to get a superstar." Its about likelihoods, not certainties, which has been pointed out to you maybe a hundred times and yet - straw man. As always.

Most of them wanted to trade our young talent Giddey and Coby, to "build through the draft", ie, replacing young players with younger players.

Giddey had some haters early on. But I don't see a board where "most" want to trade Giddey and Coby. Though for me its certainly an option depending on what the trade offers are and what they expect to be paid. But again, these are sliding scale issues not absolutes so, straw man.

You can't build anything if you don't want to pay the players you drafted. Nothing but complaints about all their contracts (Giddey, Coby, Pat) but you want to build thru the draft, lol.

So, I don't want to build through the draft. I did want to, but AK already blew that opportunity years ago and now we find ourselves in a different situation. So not really a straw man, just a lie about about someone's opinion.

And yes you can build by not paying your young players. Often times paying your young players is a crippling mistake. Not sure how crippling it will be, put hard to say Pat's contract doesn't like like a hell of a mistake today. You have to acquire, and then pay, the right players. And if you don't have the right players, you need to let the wrong ones go and keep searching.

Want to get rid of Terry and Phillips too, literally want to build thru the draft by getting rid of our recent draftees.

Again, the fate of late first round and second round picks like these guys have nothing to do with what people are actually talking about when talking about building through the draft. Building through the draft means positioning yourself to get very, very high picks.

Then after AK gets rid of all young drafted players, he doesn't believe in building through the draft. Even though he keeps giving our young draft picks contracts.

I'm not sure how many times you can use this same straw man in the same post, but this is not what building through the draft means except in the fake definition you've given it to burn down your straw man.

Little doubt when he was hired, it was to turn the Bulls into an immediate contender around Zach. Which is pretty tough. No way he makes the moves he makes if the organization wanted to "build through the draft" and tank at that point with Lavine.

How'd you crack that mystery? Was it because he publicly told us he intended to rebuild as fast as possible, never see the lottery again, and then immediately started doing just that his very first full year on the job?

I can do this with every transparently intellectually dishonest post you write. That I often chose to do so with a one liner is because doing this instead is time consuming, boring, and won't change anything about the same tired old sad sack crap you write on this subject every day.

First of all, you're not refuting ish. You're throwing passive aggressive cracks and implying, no stating directly, I'm being dishonest. Not about to continue discussing with you, because you're the type of dude who slaps somebody and hides their hand, talking about "What did I do?". Don't know if you're trying to get me banned responding to your weak ass cracks, but I PROMISE YOU you don't want this. Live your life, got me getting heated early on a Saturday morning. Really don't care if you like my opinions or not, I'm not here to talk to you. You will NEVER tell me what to say or talk about. Clearly you're on some personal crap, talking about "the same tired old sack crap you write on this subject every day".


And you're a moderator talking like this? Wow. Can't block, so I'll just ignore.