Cooper Flagg

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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1981 » by The Master » Sun Apr 6, 2025 11:00 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I'd agree that college was generally better in 1985 because even the best players would stay 3-4 years but still, college numbers are generally lower at top tier schools because the teams are stacked with blue chips and don't usually ride a star the way they do at smaller schools. Ewing for instance when he was considered a near generational talent at GT only avged like 15/10 in his senior year.

Jalen Brunson was a POTY on historic championship team averaging 19-3-5 on +60TS% and he was 8PPG player in his 2nd year in the NBA because he was drafted by playoff team. Now, imagine an actual NBA all-star on collegiate level and how big was growth of Brunson until he's become one. Some Kentucky players like Booker or Towns are good examples to your point, but that's not the case with Flagg (and that's not the case in most cases in NCAA these days), he was an anchor of an elite team. There is an argument to be made that Flagg is already better than Banchero as a shooter, defender and playmaker, so once he become an all-star level scorer, he should in 2-3 years become a better overall player. That's 2-3 years from now tho, Banchero is averaging 30PPG in his last 20 games, for example, it goes beyond my imagination what he would've done on collegiate level. :lol:

Btw. once we started our hot-taking, I don't want to be preposterous in comparing Flagg to Mr LBJ, but when you consider that in terms of shooting, Flagg's projection is Tatum-level shooter, and how amazing was Flagg for his age this year - next year's comparison with rookie LeBron will be really interesting considering he'll be almost the same age LeBron was as a rookie in 2004. It will be even more interesting as Doncic and Wemby were 10-11 months older as rookies than Flagg as well and I can imagine him having a dominant season from rookie's standards.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1982 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Apr 6, 2025 11:08 pm

The Master wrote:Jalen Brunson was a POTY on historic championship team averaging 19-3-5 on +60TS% and he was 8PPG player in his 2nd year in the NBA because he was drafted by playoff team. Now, imagine an actual NBA all-star on collegiate level and how big was growth of Brunson until he's become one. Some Kentucky players like Booker or Towns are good examples to your point, but that's not the case with Flagg (and that's not the case in most cases in NCAA these days), he was an anchor of an elite team. There is an argument to be made that Flagg is already better than Banchero as a shooter, defender and playmaker, so once he become an all-star level scorer, he should in 2-3 years become a better overall player. That's 2-3 years from now tho, Banchero is averaging 30PPG in his last 20 games, for example, it goes beyond my imagination what he would've done on collegiate level. :lol:

Btw. once we started our hot-taking, I don't want to be preposterous in comparing Flagg to Mr LBJ, but when you consider that in terms of shooting, Flagg's projection is Tatum-level shooter, and how amazing was Flagg for his age this year - next year's comparison with rookie LeBron will be really interesting considering he'll be almost the same age LeBron was as a rookie in 2004. It will be even more interesting as Doncic and Wemby were 10-11 months older as rookies than Flagg as well and I can imagine him having a dominant season from rookie's standards.


I don't think he needs to be a great shooter to be better than Paolo. LeBron wasn't even really a good shooter until about 09 but was obviously mvp caliber by 06 when he was 2nd in mvp voting. I would guess that by year 2 Cooper will be clearly better than Paolo.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1983 » by ShotCreator » Mon Apr 7, 2025 1:32 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:He's more aggressive because he can get better shots. Especially at the rim. He's visibly stronger and I think more explosive than Tatum. His body type reminds me of AD's. But obviously scaled down a bit.


I get that. That's what I'm talking about is his level of size and strength is closer to that of a big than a wing. Much more so when he is age 23-30 than at age 18. He could actually still grow another inch or so and will probably put on like 20lb of muscle in a few years. AD isn't aggressive with the ball though like Flagg is. Tatum plays much more like a traditional wing who doesn't want contact.

AD's rim finishing and free throw rates have only been topped by like, LeBron and Giannis for the past decade. He's about as aggressive with the ball as it gets. AD led the Lakers in scoring during both RS and PS in their title run.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1984 » by Cavsfansince84 » Mon Apr 7, 2025 1:42 am

ShotCreator wrote:AD's rim finishing and free throw rates have only been topped by like, LeBron and Giannis for the past decade. He's about as aggressive with the ball as it gets. AD led the Lakers in scoring during both RS and PS in their title run.


ftr is not a perfect measurement of how aggressive a player is with the ball and AD isn't that close to aggressive as it gets. Using ftr for instance, his career % is .403 and DRob's was .577 and even he would get criticism for settling for jumpers too much.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1985 » by Hook_Em » Mon Apr 7, 2025 2:02 am

Flagg is still a kid with acne on his face. He’s a teenager until December 2026. Sky is the limit for him
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1986 » by Ice Man » Mon Apr 7, 2025 12:37 pm

I was wondering about reasonable expectations for Cooper's rookie NBA season. I checked on Tatum and Banchero, two recent Duke stars who were of roughly similar size, and their NBA rookie years statistically were about the same as their NCAA seasons, per 36 minutes. Yes, the level of competition is much higher in the NBA, but the pace is so much faster and the game so much more open that the players' statistics don't really go down.

If Flagg were to do the same, his rookie season offensively would resemble Luka's, with somewhat fewer assists and a somewhat higher scoring efficiency. That would be his closest match for a teen rookie.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1987 » by FrodoBaggins » Mon Apr 7, 2025 12:47 pm

Ice Man wrote:I was wondering about reasonable expectations for Cooper's rookie NBA season. I checked on Tatum and Banchero, two recent Duke stars who were of roughly similar size, and their NBA rookie years statistically were about the same as their NCAA seasons, per 36 minutes. Yes, the level of competition is much higher in the NBA, but the pace is so much faster and the game so much more open that the players' statistics don't really go down.

If Flagg were to do the same, his rookie season offensively would closely resemble Luka's, with somewhat fewer assists and a somewhat higher scoring efficiency. That would be his closest match for a teen rookie.

Makes sense. Luka is the only prospect in recent memory whose talent was more precocious. Maybe Wemby, but he was older (19.45 draft age) and I'm not sure what to make of the French league he was playing in.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1988 » by FrodoBaggins » Mon Apr 7, 2025 1:02 pm

Image
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1989 » by Ice Man » Mon Apr 7, 2025 1:05 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:Makes sense. Luka is the only prospect in recent memory whose talent was more precocious. Maybe Wemby, but he was older (19.45 draft age) and I'm not sure what to make of the French league he was playing in.


FYI, the highest rated teen rookies vary depending upon the advanced stat chosen. Here are the Top 3 for each statistic -

Win Shares - Dwight, Tatum, Bosh
BPM - Kyrie, Luka, AD
VORP - Luka, LeBron, Kyrie
PER - AD, Kyrie, Luka

The lists of course contain only relatively modern players, because there were scarcely any teen rookies until about 20 years ago.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1990 » by FarBeyondDriven » Mon Apr 7, 2025 1:16 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:you won't find a bigger Flagg fan than me but he's now failed multiple times in big moments. It's not an indictment on him as player it's just something to be mindful of


To be clear we are talking about a game where he scored 27 points on 59% TS, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover, 2 steals, and 3 blocks .


and missed the winning shot hence "failed in big moments". It's an objective fact and his performance the rest of the game doesn't matter. He's got the ball with the game on the line. You expect elite players to make it. He didn't. It's noteworthy.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1991 » by Ice Man » Mon Apr 7, 2025 2:01 pm

FarBeyondDriven wrote: You expect elite players to make it. He didn't. It's noteworthy.


More accurately, you expect elite players to make such shots. The rest of us know that these things come and go. As exemplified by this video of the guy who you originally said would have made that shot -- Jimmy Butler.



You should watch the video; it's funny.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1992 » by LakerLegend » Tue Apr 8, 2025 5:08 am

What about Flagg vs Laettner?
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1993 » by tsherkin » Tue Apr 8, 2025 5:11 am

LakerLegend wrote:What about Flagg vs Laettner?


Nothing like Flagg's defensive potential. Didn't look anything like Flagg as a freshman, like, obviously worse and he was a year older, too. Improved as he got older and more experienced, of course, and he was pretty decent in the NBA for a while, even made an AS appearance. But Flagg is shorter, stockier, a better defender and a better scorer at a younger age.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1994 » by yellowknifer » Tue Apr 8, 2025 7:56 am

Flagg looked great in the team USA practices before the olympics. He was what, sixteen playing against a bunch of hall of fame talent in their prime? He looked like one of the best guys on the court sometimes. He probably was playing harder considering everything, but I was sold after watching some of those on YouTube.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1995 » by Handlez » Tue Apr 8, 2025 8:27 am

FarBeyondDriven wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:you won't find a bigger Flagg fan than me but he's now failed multiple times in big moments. It's not an indictment on him as player it's just something to be mindful of


To be clear we are talking about a game where he scored 27 points on 59% TS, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover, 2 steals, and 3 blocks .


and missed the winning shot hence "failed in big moments". It's an objective fact and his performance the rest of the game doesn't matter. He's got the ball with the game on the line. You expect elite players to make it. He didn't. It's noteworthy.


As if every star hasn't missed game winners.

Don't be ridiculous.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1996 » by FarBeyondDriven » Tue Apr 8, 2025 9:05 am

Handlez wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
To be clear we are talking about a game where he scored 27 points on 59% TS, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover, 2 steals, and 3 blocks .


and missed the winning shot hence "failed in big moments". It's an objective fact and his performance the rest of the game doesn't matter. He's got the ball with the game on the line. You expect elite players to make it. He didn't. It's noteworthy.


As if every star hasn't missed game winners.

Don't be ridiculous.


and when they miss enough a narrative forms. And when they make the big shots a narrative forms from that. Pointing that out shouldn't be so triggering
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1997 » by FarBeyondDriven » Tue Apr 8, 2025 9:08 am

Ice Man wrote:
FarBeyondDriven wrote: You expect elite players to make it. He didn't. It's noteworthy.


More accurately, you expect elite players to make such shots. The rest of us know that these things come and go. As exemplified by this video of the guy who you originally said would have made that shot -- Jimmy Butler.



You should watch the video; it's funny.


Yawn.

When did I bring up college Jimmy Butler. I honestly don't remember that
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1998 » by The Master » Tue Apr 8, 2025 11:20 am

FarBeyondDriven wrote:and when they miss enough a narrative forms. And when they make the big shots a narrative forms from that. Pointing that out shouldn't be so triggering
The problem with the point that you are trying to make is that we don't need 'narratives', since 1996 we have play by plays for every game, so we can objectively verify which players are good under what circumstances in late-game situations.

<10 seconds, behind or tied (-2 pts or less)

Regular season (>30 PTS):

Image

Playoffs (>3 PTS):

Image

Obviously <10 seconds, behind or tied (-2 pts or less) - isn't the only criteria for being clutch, but as you said that this is detrimental to Flagg due to potential NARRATIVE about him not being clutch, so let's investigate that.

Are these stats (FACTS) actually in line with narrative about these players? For example, LeBron James is pretty awful in those situations in regular season, but in the playoffs his resume is STAGGERING - he played 30% games more in the PO than Kobe, but made 175% more FG in those late-clock situations under pressure. The difference is so big that Durant, Kobe and Steph (he has 2 pts and 1/5 FG in the POs) played combined 537 games in the playoffs (LeBron played 280) - and they're 8/33 in these late-game situations, LeBron is 11/23.

So - is it widely accepted that while LeBron struggles in the regular season, he's - besides Dirk - by far the greatest playoff late-game scorer under pressure in the past 25 years? I don't think so. Because the problem with clutch discourse is it's not based on facts, in contrary to what you suggested - it's based on singular events, sympathy and feelings. I'm pretty sure some LeBron fans will be mad that I pointed out his awful RS stats, Kobe, Curry or Durant fans won't be happy with this post either - these are not my criteria tbh. But yeah, we can easily verify how they actually performed under these circumstances.

It is possible that Flagg won't be clutch as a player - but to talk about DESERVED NARRATIVES about an 18yo guy after great game of college basketball is probably a great example how basketball discourse is weird, lol. Kevin Durant is 18/78 FG in the regular season and 3/13 in the playoffs, Kobe is 29/96 in the RS and 4/15 in the PO - so I guess you can win 5 titles and be regarded by many as extremely clutch while literally missing one shot after another. And it's not a shot against them, efficiency in these situations is pretty low anyways. So even if Flagg isn't clutch, maybe it's not that relevant.

Btw. Jeff Green being second-most efficient clutch player behind Pau under this criteria is so funny, never would've expected that. :lol:
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1999 » by BernteB » Tue Apr 8, 2025 11:35 am

FrodoBaggins wrote:
Ice Man wrote:I was wondering about reasonable expectations for Cooper's rookie NBA season. I checked on Tatum and Banchero, two recent Duke stars who were of roughly similar size, and their NBA rookie years statistically were about the same as their NCAA seasons, per 36 minutes. Yes, the level of competition is much higher in the NBA, but the pace is so much faster and the game so much more open that the players' statistics don't really go down.

If Flagg were to do the same, his rookie season offensively would closely resemble Luka's, with somewhat fewer assists and a somewhat higher scoring efficiency. That would be his closest match for a teen rookie.

Makes sense. Luka is the only prospect in recent memory whose talent was more precocious. Maybe Wemby, but he was older (19.45 draft age) and I'm not sure what to make of the French league he was playing in.


the french league, like every other top league in europe (italy, spain, germany, turkey, greece), is heads and shoulders above college basketball. even in tier 2 leagues, the level of basketball is higher, which shouldn't come as a surprise, since it's teenager vs. professional men.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#2000 » by FrodoBaggins » Tue Apr 8, 2025 11:40 am

BernteB wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:
Ice Man wrote:I was wondering about reasonable expectations for Cooper's rookie NBA season. I checked on Tatum and Banchero, two recent Duke stars who were of roughly similar size, and their NBA rookie years statistically were about the same as their NCAA seasons, per 36 minutes. Yes, the level of competition is much higher in the NBA, but the pace is so much faster and the game so much more open that the players' statistics don't really go down.

If Flagg were to do the same, his rookie season offensively would closely resemble Luka's, with somewhat fewer assists and a somewhat higher scoring efficiency. That would be his closest match for a teen rookie.

Makes sense. Luka is the only prospect in recent memory whose talent was more precocious. Maybe Wemby, but he was older (19.45 draft age) and I'm not sure what to make of the French league he was playing in.


the french league, like every other top league in europe (italy, spain, germany, turkey, greece), is heads and shoulders above college basketball. even in tier 2 leagues, the level of basketball is higher, which shouldn't come as a surprise, since it's teenager vs. professional men.

Sure, but Wemby was older; Flagg will be an NBA rookie at the same age. We'll have to wait and see how Cooper's debut season goes to make an apt comparison regarding precociousness.

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