Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from?

[dhsilv2]

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Old Jordan was pretty bad about kicking out on his fadeaways.

Kobe's rip-through BS became an actual NBA rule in order to stop it. Paul Pierce was another dude who was all about initiating contact.

It's weird to look at today's game and say this is when flopping got bad. People have been complaining about it forever, and there have always been FT merchants. People are just looking to whine about today's game. Such people will never appreciate the positive developments, and will reach for anything they can to denigrate the current period.

And then those same people saying this will rant about how "everyone plays the same" today. Meanwhile, the 3 best players are Jokic, SGA, and Giannis....3 absolutely completely different guys who run completely different offenses and defenses.

[tsherkin]

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Old Jordan was pretty bad about kicking out on his fadeaways.

Kobe's rip-through BS became an actual NBA rule in order to stop it. Paul Pierce was another dude who was all about initiating contact.

It's weird to look at today's game and say this is when flopping got bad. People have been complaining about it forever, and there have always been FT merchants. People are just looking to whine about today's game. Such people will never appreciate the positive developments, and will reach for anything they can to denigrate the current period.

And then those same people saying this will rant about how "everyone plays the same" today. Meanwhile, the 3 best players are Jokic, SGA, and Giannis....3 absolutely completely different guys who run completely different offenses and defenses.

Exactly. It's common-fan ignorance at its finest. And this is even while folks CONTINUE to ignore a post renaissance, in the main because loads of people still think all post offense is backdown isolations, and completely ignore timeless fundamentals of off-ball movement. Very frustrating.

[HotelVitale]

No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.

Rodman's many years of exaggerated contact laughs at your response.

I'll show you some contact, and if you refuse, I know that you're just denying the obvious.


Go ahead and point out the contact in the lebron video.... or anything that isn't wide open for that matter.
This defense is a joke

Now, watch the Pistons.


Hell, compare the Lebron GS vid with with the 2nd worst defensive team in the below video.


You see, your eyes deceive you. Take 2:15 for example. It looks like there's no contact, and then you pay attention to
the resistance of the replay. That was real handchecking.

And this is a 90s game with way less contact than the 80s battles. This is one of the poorest defensive teams that year.

Then 2:50, 2:52, 2:55, 3:32... Jordan had to do way more to avoid contact than anything in that pillow soft Lebron GS video. 4:04? He literally
'had to dunk around a guy. Today? That's an open dunk every day. 4:55 you can't even get around a guy.

The Bulls were able to avoid a lot of contact simply because they used transition as a strategy. But if it's a half court set? There's
more contact and it's tougher to drive around guys, no question.

Couple things here, and I promise I'm approaching this with an open mind. First you've chosen two videos that are a) in very important PO games where defense always tightens up and b) featuring the best player of all time that teams were trying psychotically to stop in any way possible. If you wanted to look at the question of 'was defense tougher and more physical in 1990 than 2025' for real, it'd be best to pull up a couple random games and look for the average.

Also for the second point, I've looked back at many games since the 80s to talk about handchecking and rule changes etc (I used to teach a course on sports narratives and this was one of the case studies I talked about with the nerdier students), and the only pretty solid thing I could find supporting the old-school toughness/hand-checking stuff was MJ. Teams definitely did seem to push handchecking further and others did try to hit him harder or use different physical strategies to make things harder on him. So it's important to keep that in mind.

More importantly, I just looked at your examples and I think you're arguing about something a little different than what your opponents are. No one would argue that the paint was significantly more clogged in the half court 80s or 90s than it is now. That does mean that people who were driving to the cup were likely going to face more people at the cup--if that's your point, no one should disagree with you. The problem comes with stretching that into narratives about how guys got hammered at the basket back then, or that refs let you get away with so much more back then, etc. Your examples don't really show that at all, they just show that starting your drives about 18 ft out means that you'll probably encounter help defense and have to finish over them. That's not really 'physicality' of any sort though, it's just a clogged paint.

Another issue for your POV is that players get injured a lot more these days. Even accounting abundantly for load-managing or whatever, there are simply a lot more injuries that come because of the speed and distances covered in the game now. People aren't jostling nearly as much in the paint but they are flying around inside of it much more--help defense has to rotate over from 10-20 ft away now, vs literally like 2-3 ft in the 90s. If you watch an average game from the 90s/early 2000s it looks kinda sluggish, players are playing hard of course but half court sets are slow and there's not much movement, and it all takes place so so close to the cup. The 'physicality' looks a lot like bigger slower bodies bumping into each other than anything like the 'jordan rules' or players getting knocked around, and that's an important distinction. I think all that has to be taken into account before we start talking seriously about the topic.

[HotelVitale]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot on its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

I mean, why bother skipping pages of a thread to say the lowest info thing in it? Lots of discussion on this board for years have talked about all of your points, no one's ignorant about them. Yes there were more big guys slowly jostling each other in the paint in 1999 than there is now. But go back and watch an average 1999 game and there's really not that much to be nostalgic about or to immediately declare 'now that was REAL basketball!' It really is just an endless parade of post-ups and little mid-range curls and pull-ups, there's no exciting variety or physicality or anything that contrasts well with today's game and looks much better in comparison. Also the rules are pretty much the same then as now, and any difference you can notice in the game play between then and now is like 500 times more because of changes in strategy than changes in officiating. And there's plenty of physical stuff now, it's just different and happens in different spots on the floor etc.

Happy to get more into any of it if you really want to. But seems like you should probably start with something a little more in depth than just 'more 3 pt shooting' = 'less physicality' = 'worse.'

[Nuntius]

Vlade was a nobody. None of the stars players were regularly flopping and exaggerating contact. You think that guys in the 90s had mastered flopping to the same degree as they have now?

Vlade is literally on the Hall of Fame, my man. Since when is a HoFer a nobody?

Jasonxxx102 is right. Just like you have largely forgotten about Vlade because bigger stars existed, the future generations will forget about guys like Trae Young since bigger stars exist.

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Watch on YouTube

Reggie's leg kick was not flopping, imo, but I'm definitely biased

Other than that, I agree.

[Big J]

Vlade is literally on the Hall of Fame, my man. Since when is a HoFer a nobody?

Jasonxxx102 is right. Just like you have largely forgotten about Vlade because bigger stars existed, the future generations will forget about guys like Trae Young since bigger stars exist.

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Watch on YouTube

Reggie's leg kick was not flopping, imo, but I'm definitely biased

Other than that, I agree.

The difference is that back then there were a few random guys who flopped. Now every single player in the league does it, and is rewarded for it.

[Nuntius]

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Watch on YouTube

Reggie's leg kick was not flopping, imo, but I'm definitely biased

Other than that, I agree.

The difference is that back then there were a few random guys who flopped. Now every single player in the league does it, and is rewarded for it.

Is this really true, though? You said earlier in the thread that Vlade was the only one that was doing it and yet people have come up with numerous examples of 90s icons doing it.

[Big J]

Reggie's leg kick was not flopping, imo, but I'm definitely biased

Other than that, I agree.

The difference is that back then there were a few random guys who flopped. Now every single player in the league does it, and is rewarded for it.

Is this really true, though? You said earlier in the thread that Vlade was the only one that was doing it and yet people have come up with numerous examples of 90s icons doing it.

Yes, it's really true. Go watch some 90s film.

[Nuntius]

The difference is that back then there were a few random guys who flopped. Now every single player in the league does it, and is rewarded for it.

Is this really true, though? You said earlier in the thread that Vlade was the only one that was doing it and yet people have come up with numerous examples of 90s icons doing it.

Yes, it's really true. Go watch some 90s film.

And, again, posters who lived through that area like tsherkin (to use an example) directly contradict the point you're making. So, it doesn't look like what you're saying is objectively true. It's just your opinion which should be respected, obviously, but can be disagreed with.

[ItsDanger]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot on its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

I mean, why bother skipping pages of a thread to say the lowest info thing in it? Lots of discussion on this board for years have talked about all of your points, no one's ignorant about them. Yes there were more big guys slowly jostling each other in the paint in 1999 than there is now. But go back and watch an average 1999 game and there's really not that much to be nostalgic about or to immediately declare 'now that was REAL basketball!' It really is just an endless parade of post-ups and little mid-range curls and pull-ups, there's no exciting variety or physicality or anything that contrasts well with today's game and looks much better in comparison. Also the rules are pretty much the same then as now, and any difference you can notice in the game play between then and now is like 500 times more because of changes in strategy than changes in officiating. And there's plenty of physical stuff now, it's just different and happens in different spots on the floor etc.

Happy to get more into any of it if you really want to. But seems like you should probably start with something a little more in depth than just 'more 3 pt shooting' = 'less physicality' = 'worse.'

Perimeter shots won't have as much physical contact given space. Its not a complicated concept.

[reddyplayerone]

A better question is why would anyone care one way or the other?

[tsherkin]

Perimeter shots won't have as much physical contact given space. Its not a complicated concept.

Okay but again... we've seen a fairly similar proportion of shots inside the RA for the past quarter century or so, and people weren't bitching about this in 1998 or 2000. Even in today's game, there's like a 3, 4% different in total proportion of shots from 0-3 feet compared to those seasons. There are still plenty of opportunities for physicality. And it's not like guys were getting tons of physicality on those shots from like 10-15 feet.

There is only so much difference in the nature of how the game is being played. And that remains true when you start to realize how much of the earlier portions of NBA history were played at tempos far faster than the current game. Like, everything from the 80s (literally 1989 and earlier) and before.

But we HAVE seen considerably more advanced use of screens in today's game. Much more complex and nuanced offenses. CONSIDERABLY superior shooting, particularly from the bigger guys. A lot more spacing as a result of the range guys exhibit. Zone defense is legal now. League-average PPG aren't a lot different than they were over the first 5 or 6 years of the 1980s, either.

Anyway, there's a great deal of bitching. There's about a 10% increase in the proportion of shots taken from 16+ feet from about 1997 compared to today. That isn't a huge deal. More of them are threes than long twos, of course, but from the POV of taking away from physicality, no big deal. The proportion of shots from the rim, like I said, isn't hugely different over the past quarter century.

So a lot of this is directly a great deal of whinging.

I've watched a lot of 80s and 90s ball; the idea that today's era is a lot more physical just doesn't make sense to me. There are some playoff series with the Pistons and the Knicks and Heat and stuff which were pretty heated, for sure, but there are physical series in the postseason even today. So that doesn't really mean a lot to me. If you want to argue that queueing up some random Nuggets/Warriors/Mav game was going to show you this insane level of physicality compared to today, you've got another thing coming. Even the average Lakers or Celtics game, not really a ton more physical than today's game. It's just a lot of nostalgia and poor understanding of the differences in the game when you have really good shooters all over the place. There are many fewer guys in the league who just can't shoot unless spoon-fed around the rim (that Danny Fortson/Reggie Evans archetype) than in earlier eras. And you see many more bigs with some range. Many smaller guys playing the frontcourt positions, as was more common in the 70s and before, as it happens.

[dhsilv2]

Vlade is literally on the Hall of Fame, my man. Since when is a HoFer a nobody?

Jasonxxx102 is right. Just like you have largely forgotten about Vlade because bigger stars existed, the future generations will forget about guys like Trae Young since bigger stars exist.

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Reggie's leg kick was not flopping, imo, but I'm definitely biased

Other than that, I agree.

Nah more foul hunting.

[bledredwine]

Rodman's many years of exaggerated contact laughs at your response.

I'll show you some contact, and if you refuse, I know that you're just denying the obvious.


Go ahead and point out the contact in the lebron video.... or anything that isn't wide open for that matter.
This defense is a joke

Now, watch the Pistons.


Hell, compare the Lebron GS vid with with the 2nd worst defensive team in the below video.


You see, your eyes deceive you. Take 2:15 for example. It looks like there's no contact, and then you pay attention to
the resistance of the replay. That was real handchecking.

And this is a 90s game with way less contact than the 80s battles. This is one of the poorest defensive teams that year.

Then 2:50, 2:52, 2:55, 3:32... Jordan had to do way more to avoid contact than anything in that pillow soft Lebron GS video. 4:04? He literally
'had to dunk around a guy. Today? That's an open dunk every day. 4:55 you can't even get around a guy.

The Bulls were able to avoid a lot of contact simply because they used transition as a strategy. But if it's a half court set? There's
more contact and it's tougher to drive around guys, no question.

Couple things here, and I promise I'm approaching this with an open mind. First you've chosen two videos that are a) in very important PO games where defense always tightens up and b) featuring the best player of all time that teams were trying psychotically to stop in any way possible. If you wanted to look at the question of 'was defense tougher and more physical in 1990 than 2025' for real, it'd be best to pull up a couple random games and look for the average.

Also for the second point, I've looked back at many games since the 80s to talk about handchecking and rule changes etc (I used to teach a course on sports narratives and this was one of the case studies I talked about with the nerdier students), and the only pretty solid thing I could find supporting the old-school toughness/hand-checking stuff was MJ. Teams definitely did seem to push handchecking further and others did try to hit him harder or use different physical strategies to make things harder on him. So it's important to keep that in mind.

More importantly, I just looked at your examples and I think you're arguing about something a little different than what your opponents are. No one would argue that the paint was significantly more clogged in the half court 80s or 90s than it is now. That does mean that people who were driving to the cup were likely going to face more people at the cup--if that's your point, no one should disagree with you. The problem comes with stretching that into narratives about how guys got hammered at the basket back then, or that refs let you get away with so much more back then, etc. Your examples don't really show that at all, they just show that starting your drives about 18 ft out means that you'll probably encounter help defense and have to finish over them. That's not really 'physicality' of any sort though, it's just a clogged paint.

Another issue for your POV is that players get injured a lot more these days. Even accounting abundantly for load-managing or whatever, there are simply a lot more injuries that come because of the speed and distances covered in the game now. People aren't jostling nearly as much in the paint but they are flying around inside of it much more--help defense has to rotate over from 10-20 ft away now, vs literally like 2-3 ft in the 90s. If you watch an average game from the 90s/early 2000s it looks kinda sluggish, players are playing hard of course but half court sets are slow and there's not much movement, and it all takes place so so close to the cup. The 'physicality' looks a lot like bigger slower bodies bumping into each other than anything like the 'jordan rules' or players getting knocked around, and that's an important distinction. I think all that has to be taken into account before we start talking seriously about the topic.

I don’t disagree with a thing you said, hence the like. I’ve had the same thoughts.

However, I’m pretty sure Op refers to the 90s not being more physical when they certainly were, not only in the paint but on the perimeter.

Now, it’s about mileage and space, as you mentioned. I do believe that the issue with this is that now players don’t have to be the most physically gifted to be a superstar, so you’re seeing less athletic guys with tons of mileage and injuries. What players now put up with is nothing compared to what Wilt did, as an example. It depends on the build, genetics, and play style.

On the contrary, the running around is particularly challenging for bigs, I would say, who aren’t built to constantly run around screens and the like.

You could also make the point that stars across all sports have far more longevity than in the past (Mayweather, Federer, Lebron, Messi, Pacquiao), so there’s a balance in these things.

But in terms of defense? You had to face more resistance and aggression in the 90s, and certainly in the 80s, no question, not to mention the clogged paint making it more of a challenge to get to the rim and finish. Sadly, there are posters here who choose to dispute this, despite your mention that no one should be.

[bledredwine]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot on its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

I mean, why bother skipping pages of a thread to say the lowest info thing in it? Lots of discussion on this board for years have talked about all of your points, no one's ignorant about them. Yes there were more big guys slowly jostling each other in the paint in 1999 than there is now. But go back and watch an average 1999 game and there's really not that much to be nostalgic about or to immediately declare 'now that was REAL basketball!' It really is just an endless parade of post-ups and little mid-range curls and pull-ups, there's no exciting variety or physicality or anything that contrasts well with today's game and looks much better in comparison. Also the rules are pretty much the same then as now, and any difference you can notice in the game play between then and now is like 500 times more because of changes in strategy than changes in officiating. And there's plenty of physical stuff now, it's just different and happens in different spots on the floor etc.

Happy to get more into any of it if you really want to. But seems like you should probably start with something a little more in depth than just 'more 3 pt shooting' = 'less physicality' = 'worse.'

Perimeter shots won't have as much physical contact given space. Its not a complicated concept.

Bingo. It’s not rocket science. It’s also easier to get to the rim as the paint is clear. We’ve even heard outside perspectives from Jokic Luka and Giannis talk about the ease of scoring in the NBA in particular. We’ve also heard lebron, draymond, pop talk about how you can’t play defense, complaining about the league and not being able to touch a guy in particular.

Obvious, and impressive that fans here choose to deny it with whatever conjecture.

[bisme37]

I've been watching Celtics City on HBO and the early 80's battles between Boston and Philly were like death matches lol. Cedric Maxwell legit attacked a fan and the game just kept going so the players could continue clotheslining each other lmao.

I think it cooled off a bit from that in the 90's, if I'm remembering correctly.

[AlexanderRight]

On LA’s game winner, Nembhard right in front of the rim, instead of atleast getting a hand up on Luka’s floater decides to flop onto the ground off almost zero leg contact, rendering himself completeness useless against LeBron’s tip in or for any kind of play at all. Games are literally on the line and guys are just throwing themselves onto the ground instead of just playing ball, lol. I don’t see how anyone can say with a straight face that’s better than what we’ve seen before, atleast on the defensive end.

[dhsilv2]

On LA’s game winner, Nembhard right in front of the rim, instead of atleast getting a hand up on Luka’s floater decides to flop onto the ground off almost zero leg contact, rendering himself completeness useless against LeBron’s tip in or for any kind of play at all. Games are literally on the line and guys are just throwing themselves onto the ground instead of just playing ball, lol. I don’t see how anyone can say with a straight face that’s better than what we’ve seen before, atleast on the defensive end.

Flopping on defense is bad. But it's not new.

Does the flopping being more common or more...flamboyant make it worse? Maybe. Is that offset by far more physical play on the outside and more complex defensive sets? eh...hard to say.

I think the message that most of us want to hammer home is that the NBA today is more similar than it is different to the past. You can like one style of game more than another, but the differences are far more nuanced and subtle than so many want to imply. Meanwhile, teams do takes defense as seriously as ever on the whole. Team defenses have never been better (rules play a large role here). And the talent in the league is better than ever, with less and less different body types because of defense primarily.

[ScrantonBulls]

It's time to end the buffoonary based on nostalgia. You didn't see physicality like this on the perimeter much back in the 80s or 90s. Without question perimeter defense is more physical today. I'd say the game as a whole is more physical today than the 80s and 90s.

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Watch on YouTube

[/quote]

[Curmudgeon]

Myth? LOL.