PG: Lethal Weapon

[HopelessKnick]

This 0-8 talk is a **** argument anyway used mostly by people who have embarrassed themselves with their cluelessness on this board before and are now scrambling for SOMETHING left in order to save face.

This is the first year of this team, they have had very, very good stretches, the talent is there, our “flaws” convincingly carried us through a longer stretch without our best player, Towns arrived here only 5 months ago, and a championship has never been won that quickly by any team outside of Kawhi’s Raptors.

The assumption that we could have magically got better return on our moves or - get that - be better with Randle still around ( ) is so ridiculous that it hurts. But these people just don’t care, they are full of ****.

I think you are being way to overly harsh. The 0-8 argument is valid. It is not about being 0-8 per se, it is more about being blown out 7 out of 8 times. I think if say 5 out of those 8 games were closely contested 5 point losses things would be different.

I'm personally no Randle fan at all but I think that argument is about the huge sacrifice in depths and FRPs last offseason. And despite disliking Randle's game and character myself, I think questioning giving up DD, Randle and the 17th pick is not outlandish. I personally would have probably still done the trade but with the Detroit pick turning out soo good in a deep draft it is not lopsided at all anymore IMO. BTW when the trade happened 99% thought the Detroit pick was not going to convey because the Pistons really didn't have any eye-popping acquisition and came of that 27 games losing streak...I'm sure that our FO was surprised as well. But given the fact that Randle was a 3 times all-star and DD has 6th man of the year potential, giving up that pick was excessive. Leon generally was way too careless with the picks last offseason and he overestimated Mikal's ability.

I think you’re underestimating what we have acquired and how this needs time to grow. Even with Mikal Bridges, what he’s done recently is unappreciated. He has been very, very good lately, very efficient and especially great on defense. But people cannot see it, they can only see what they are told - yet they will be the loudest voices in an online forum. You can tell they never handled a basketball. You do the Towns pick 10/10 times and not look back. The fact that we already outperformed last year’s team after missing Brunson for 15 something games and Mitch for 60 out whatever it was is a more telling marker to me. This will be a much improved team next year and we haven’t even lost a playoff game yet.

What is more, it’s easy to say we overpaid for Bridges. But he fits in, literally, with his 24 million deal, and posters have failed at providing feasible alternatives, especially considering that fact. Dollar for dollar, Bridges has been one of the very best players in the league at his position, especially lately. I kinda suspect people do not understand that. And I don’t mean you when I say that and I don’t even know if I’m really using the plural form.

It is not as clear cut as you put it. Mitch went down in early december last year and missed around 50 games as well. Randle miss like the final 30 games or so too. OG also missed a bunch of games with his elbow. This year's team by and large was more healthy than last year's team or at the very least comparable. Remember last january we were annihilating teams, even good teams left and right. Like 30 point demolitions...I think it was the winningiest and most lopsided month in Knick history.

As for the trade...like I said: Today I tend to still do it but it is not as clear cut as you put it. Think about this: There have been numerous players picked in the mid first round that have turned out pretty good. Direct example: Would you trade Randle + DD + Kelal Ware for Towns alone? Maybe you would but you can see how many would not. A 17th pick in a generationally deep draft is a big asset. Let's not disregard it as some 2nd round throw in.

As for Bridges: Well yeah you are basing this off his current contract but we all know that the extension is not going to look anything close to that. Would you still feel the same way about Bridges if he signed a 5 year/180- 190mill. extension in the offseason? Because that's where it is going to be.
If you look at the deals that were struck for DFS (only 2nd rounder involved), Hunter (only 2nd rounder involved), Ingram (1 FRP) than it is very rational to say that we overpaid vastly for Bridges. I personally don't like to speculate on alternatives but I bet you this: If you asked prior to last offseason what you'dd expect back for an expiring + 4 FRPs + Milwaukee's lighlty protected pick I think most people would have assumed all-star level talent. Not a 4th scoring option. And that's fair criticism.

I personally disliked Randle and I like Bridges and KAT but the general criticism is fair.

[spree2kawhi]

I think you are being way to overly harsh. The 0-8 argument is valid. It is not about being 0-8 per se, it is more about being blown out 7 out of 8 times. I think if say 5 out of those 8 games were closely contested 5 point losses things would be different.

I'm personally no Randle fan at all but I think that argument is about the huge sacrifice in depths and FRPs last offseason. And despite disliking Randle's game and character myself, I think questioning giving up DD, Randle and the 17th pick is not outlandish. I personally would have probably still done the trade but with the Detroit pick turning out soo good in a deep draft it is not lopsided at all anymore IMO. BTW when the trade happened 99% thought the Detroit pick was not going to convey because the Pistons really didn't have any eye-popping acquisition and came of that 27 games losing streak...I'm sure that our FO was surprised as well. But given the fact that Randle was a 3 times all-star and DD has 6th man of the year potential, giving up that pick was excessive. Leon generally was way too careless with the picks last offseason and he overestimated Mikal's ability.

I think you’re underestimating what we have acquired and how this needs time to grow. Even with Mikal Bridges, what he’s done recently is unappreciated. He has been very, very good lately, very efficient and especially great on defense. But people cannot see it, they can only see what they are told - yet they will be the loudest voices in an online forum. You can tell they never handled a basketball. You do the Towns pick 10/10 times and not look back. The fact that we already outperformed last year’s team after missing Brunson for 15 something games and Mitch for 60 out whatever it was is a more telling marker to me. This will be a much improved team next year and we haven’t even lost a playoff game yet.

What is more, it’s easy to say we overpaid for Bridges. But he fits in, literally, with his 24 million deal, and posters have failed at providing feasible alternatives, especially considering that fact. Dollar for dollar, Bridges has been one of the very best players in the league at his position, especially lately. I kinda suspect people do not understand that. And I don’t mean you when I say that and I don’t even know if I’m really using the plural form.

It is not as clear cut as you put it. Mitch went down in early december last year and missed around 50 games as well. Randle miss like the final 30 games or so too. OG also missed a bunch of games with his elbow. This year's team by and large was more healthy than last year's team or at the very least comparable. Remember last january we were annihilating teams, even good teams left and right. Like 30 point demolitions...I think it was the winningiest and most lopsided month in Knick history.

As for the trade...like I said: Today I tend to still do it but it is not as clear cut as you put it. Think about this: There have been numerous players picked in the mid first round that have turned out pretty good. Direct example: Would you trade Randle + DD + Kelal Ware for Towns alone? Maybe you would but you can see how many would not. A 17th pick in a generationally deep draft is a big asset. Let's not disregard it as some 2nd round throw in.

As for Bridges: Well yeah you are basing this off his current contract but we all know that the extension is not going to look anything close to that. Would you still feel the same way about Bridges if he signed a 5 year/180- 190mill. extension in the offseason? Because that's where it is going to be.
If you look at the deals that were struck for DFS (only 2nd rounder involved), Hunter (only 2nd rounder involved), Ingram (1 FRP) than it is very rational to say that we overpaid vastly for Bridges. I personally don't like to speculate on alternatives but I bet you this: If you asked prior to last offseason what you'dd expect back for an expiring + 4 FRPs + Milwaukee's lighlty protected pick I think most people would have assumed all-star level talent. Not a 4th scoring option. And that's fair criticism.

I personally disliked Randle and I like Bridges and KAT but the general criticism is fair.

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

[HopelessKnick]

I think you’re underestimating what we have acquired and how this needs time to grow. Even with Mikal Bridges, what he’s done recently is unappreciated. He has been very, very good lately, very efficient and especially great on defense. But people cannot see it, they can only see what they are told - yet they will be the loudest voices in an online forum. You can tell they never handled a basketball. You do the Towns pick 10/10 times and not look back. The fact that we already outperformed last year’s team after missing Brunson for 15 something games and Mitch for 60 out whatever it was is a more telling marker to me. This will be a much improved team next year and we haven’t even lost a playoff game yet.

What is more, it’s easy to say we overpaid for Bridges. But he fits in, literally, with his 24 million deal, and posters have failed at providing feasible alternatives, especially considering that fact. Dollar for dollar, Bridges has been one of the very best players in the league at his position, especially lately. I kinda suspect people do not understand that. And I don’t mean you when I say that and I don’t even know if I’m really using the plural form.

It is not as clear cut as you put it. Mitch went down in early december last year and missed around 50 games as well. Randle miss like the final 30 games or so too. OG also missed a bunch of games with his elbow. This year's team by and large was more healthy than last year's team or at the very least comparable. Remember last january we were annihilating teams, even good teams left and right. Like 30 point demolitions...I think it was the winningiest and most lopsided month in Knick history.

As for the trade...like I said: Today I tend to still do it but it is not as clear cut as you put it. Think about this: There have been numerous players picked in the mid first round that have turned out pretty good. Direct example: Would you trade Randle + DD + Kelal Ware for Towns alone? Maybe you would but you can see how many would not. A 17th pick in a generationally deep draft is a big asset. Let's not disregard it as some 2nd round throw in.

As for Bridges: Well yeah you are basing this off his current contract but we all know that the extension is not going to look anything close to that. Would you still feel the same way about Bridges if he signed a 5 year/180- 190mill. extension in the offseason? Because that's where it is going to be.
If you look at the deals that were struck for DFS (only 2nd rounder involved), Hunter (only 2nd rounder involved), Ingram (1 FRP) than it is very rational to say that we overpaid vastly for Bridges. I personally don't like to speculate on alternatives but I bet you this: If you asked prior to last offseason what you'dd expect back for an expiring + 4 FRPs + Milwaukee's lighlty protected pick I think most people would have assumed all-star level talent. Not a 4th scoring option. And that's fair criticism.

I personally disliked Randle and I like Bridges and KAT but the general criticism is fair.

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

1. I'm not even a Randle supporter at all but I'll try to remain fair: Randle had a terrible showing against the Hawks but was also on a team where he got double and triple teamed all the time. And we all know he is not THAT dude that can continue scoring against that type of coverage. The following postseason he was really hobbled and last year he missed the playoff entirely. To me the jury is out on him. To me this year is either make or break for him in regards to playoff success. He now has that alpha dog next to him drawing the main attention and he has shotmakers around him too. No excuses but I will give him this run before I call him the worst playoff performer of all time. Technically I don't see why his game should not translate to the playoffs. Let's wait 4-5 more weeks before making that judgement.

2. I'm not sure why you compare Randle to Bridges, the comparison should be to KAT. And KAT has been solid in the playoffs but also far from great. Considering he is solely an offensive weapon his 19points/9rebounds last season in the first and 2nd round on 50/40 shooting are good but not outstanding. And then he was horrific in the WCF, shoting 38%/24% for 19points/8rebounds. The year before he was 18/10 on 46/25% against Denver. Again pretty bad. Before that he had a good series against Memphis with 22/10 on very efficient shooting. Against Houston in 2018 again a bad series with 15/13 on 47/27% shooting. So KAT has been mixed overall. 6 playoff series---3 good ones and 3 bad ones. Has really averaged 20+points only in 1 out of 6 series. For a solely offensive player that's not really good.

As for Bridges. I'll easily say that among 3-D wings his game is solid. I actually think the criticism on his defense throughout the season has been somewhat exaggerated. However I completely disagree with the notion of "you can simply re-acquire those picks". Bridges cost us a premium price and he does not perform at that level. I gave you examples of 3-D players literally at a fraction of what Bridges cost us. Now Bridges is somewhat better than those, but not like much much better.

To me this is not even a straight talent discussion. I could even go along with you with the notion that the talent level (top 7) on this team is good--maybe still a notch below Boston and OKC but not that much, but the fit is truly iffy and I think this is our main point of disagreement and contention. Boston's top 7 are all 2-way players that defend and shoot well. No exception. In our case the top 7 consists of:

2 defensive liabilities
1 weak shooter (Hart)
1 non-shooter (Mitch)

Boston is much more balanced. We have 4 players in our top 7 with major holes in their games. That's why you will see the Boston series not being even close. And IMO the only way out of this is through trading either KAT, Hart or Mitch. JB is going nowhere and will retire a knick (hopefully). Chemistry is not going to enable Hart to knock down 3s and is not going to make KAT and JB solid defenders. The roster is good enough to win 50-55 games for the upcoming 5 seasons and I appreciate knick fans saying that's a good place to be (considering 2000-2020), but if you wanna be elite --at least IMO-- the fit and balance of this roster needs some serious reconstruction. Adding a good 8th man is not going to put us in serious title contention. Now hopefully we'll see a different knick team in the second round and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

[HopelessKnick]

Just to add a final example: KAT for Jaren Jackson Jr. would not be a lopsided deal talentwise. Depending on the structure of your team one could argue that it would be pretty even talentwise. However IMO if you have a line-up with JJ instead of KAT, our defense will be top 3 in the league while our offense will by and large remain comparable. Why? Because we'll have 4 good defenders and only JB as a liability. All while Bridges and OG can pick up the slack offensively from the offensive downgrade from KAT to JJ on that side.

But at this point I guess we just gotta agree to disagree and wait out the upcoming postseason. Between now and then opinions on KAT, Bridges, Randle, Donovan, Cleveland, Thibs, Mazzula, Boston, 0-8 and all that stuff may shift decisively. We all know this is a "what have you done for me lately" type of sport. I'm rooting as hard as possible for this team....I mean if it was up to me KAT comes out tonight and puts 40 on Boston's asses and I'll be friggin happy...

[spree2kawhi]

It is not as clear cut as you put it. Mitch went down in early december last year and missed around 50 games as well. Randle miss like the final 30 games or so too. OG also missed a bunch of games with his elbow. This year's team by and large was more healthy than last year's team or at the very least comparable. Remember last january we were annihilating teams, even good teams left and right. Like 30 point demolitions...I think it was the winningiest and most lopsided month in Knick history.

As for the trade...like I said: Today I tend to still do it but it is not as clear cut as you put it. Think about this: There have been numerous players picked in the mid first round that have turned out pretty good. Direct example: Would you trade Randle + DD + Kelal Ware for Towns alone? Maybe you would but you can see how many would not. A 17th pick in a generationally deep draft is a big asset. Let's not disregard it as some 2nd round throw in.

As for Bridges: Well yeah you are basing this off his current contract but we all know that the extension is not going to look anything close to that. Would you still feel the same way about Bridges if he signed a 5 year/180- 190mill. extension in the offseason? Because that's where it is going to be.
If you look at the deals that were struck for DFS (only 2nd rounder involved), Hunter (only 2nd rounder involved), Ingram (1 FRP) than it is very rational to say that we overpaid vastly for Bridges. I personally don't like to speculate on alternatives but I bet you this: If you asked prior to last offseason what you'dd expect back for an expiring + 4 FRPs + Milwaukee's lighlty protected pick I think most people would have assumed all-star level talent. Not a 4th scoring option. And that's fair criticism.

I personally disliked Randle and I like Bridges and KAT but the general criticism is fair.

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

1. I'm not even a Randle supporter at all but I'll try to remain fair: Randle had a terrible showing against the Hawks but was also on a team where he got double and triple teamed all the time. And we all know he is not THAT dude that can continue scoring against that type of coverage. The following postseason he was really hobbled and last year he missed the playoff entirely. To me the jury is out on him. To me this year is either make or break for him in regards to playoff success. He now has that alpha dog next to him drawing the main attention and he has shotmakers around him too. No excuses but I will give him this run before I call him the worst playoff performer of all time. Technically I don't see why his game should not translate to the playoffs. Let's wait 4-5 more weeks before making that judgement.

2. I'm not sure why you compare Randle to Bridges, the comparison should be to KAT. And KAT has been solid in the playoffs but also far from great. Considering he is solely an offensive weapon his 19points/9rebounds last season in the first and 2nd round on 50/40 shooting are good but not outstanding. And then he was horrific in the WCF, shoting 38%/24% for 19points/8rebounds. The year before he was 18/10 on 46/25% against Denver. Again pretty bad. Before that he had a good series against Memphis with 22/10 on very efficient shooting. Against Houston in 2018 again a bad series with 15/13 on 47/27% shooting. So KAT has been mixed overall. 6 playoff series---3 good ones and 3 bad ones. Has really averaged 20+points only in 1 out of 6 series. For a solely offensive player that's not really good.

As for Bridges. I'll easily say that among 3-D wings his game is solid. I actually think the criticism on his defense throughout the season has been somewhat exaggerated. However I completely disagree with the notion of "you can simply re-acquire those picks". Bridges cost us a premium price and he does not perform at that level. I gave you examples of 3-D players literally at a fraction of what Bridges cost us. Now Bridges is somewhat better than those, but not like much much better.

To me this is not even a straight talent discussion. I could even go along with you with the notion that the talent level (top 7) on this team is good--maybe still a notch below Boston and OKC but not that much, but the fit is truly iffy and I think this is our main point of disagreement and contention. Boston's top 7 are all 2-way players that defend and shoot well. No exception. In our case the top 7 consists of:

2 defensive liabilities
1 weak shooter (Hart)
1 non-shooter (Mitch)

Boston is much more balanced. We have 4 players in our top 7 with major holes in their games. That's why you will see the Boston series not being even close. And IMO the only way out of this is through trading either KAT, Hart or Mitch. JB is going nowhere and will retire a knick (hopefully). Chemistry is not going to enable Hart to knock down 3s and is not going to make KAT and JB solid defenders. The roster is good enough to win 50-55 games for the upcoming 5 seasons and I appreciate knick fans saying that's a good place to be (considering 2000-2020), but if you wanna be elite --at least IMO-- the fit and balance of this roster needs some serious reconstruction. Adding a good 8th man is not going to put us in serious title contention. Now hopefully we'll see a different knick team in the second round and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

That was only because you brought up Bridges extension after next season. We obviously traded Randle for a better player anyway, so my point was that Randle is up for an extension too.

I think Randle at his best is not a reliable player at all and his numbers on the Knicks were very much inflated due to a lack of overall talent on those teams. We’re seeing it this year.

It’s really as simple as pointing towards his playing style and that’s my entire point: we improved in terms of off the ball movement and passing when we traded him. I particularly love this about our team and disagree with the notion that there are iffy fits. That was true when Randle and RJ were still here. Ultimately, this is going to be winning basketball because the ball movement is off the charts and we have some very dependable shooters. We now have Brunson, plus three players who are just as efficient players as Randle and some are even straight up better than him (OG, Towns). I won’t say Bridges is better, but he is a better defender and given that he’s such a good defender and great off the ball, plus automatic from mid-range, he is a more efficient or rather more useful player for any team, regardless of any numbers people will feel tempted to bring up. I don’t want to compare the two players much at all, that’s not my point, but I do want to stress that we improved our team a lot from last season. For a player capable of what Bridges has shown at such a salary, you have to give up value. We didn’t give up any valuable player, so you give up picks.

Oh and let me add one thing about Boston, who I agree are somewhat superior talent-wise: you cannot call Jrue or Brown good shooters this year. They have flaws too, just like we have comparably talented players in Brunson, Towns, OG etc. Cohesion is everything. They had been trying like five or six times before coming through and people had dumped on Tatum just like they have been trashing Towns. And speaking of Brown, do you think we could’ve acquired him or this type of talent in general (22.6 ppg, 32 3P%) for Bogdanovic and five picks? I say no, not even close. People love to make it sound like we sold our souls to the devil, but I guess we simply paid market value.

[prophet_of_rage]

All teams are flawed man, Thibs has had this Knick team in the top 10, top 5 even I think defensively we just haven't had Mitch(look what they've done defensively with him
Back). Even the mighty Thunder are flawed and it will
Show come playoff time when they don't get out of the second round. Ppl can look at 0-8 all they want, in 2 weeks that sh*t means nothing when the real season begins, this team healthy(with this version of OG) will be a nightmare out.

Then they will change their tune.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

No the Thibs haters won't, it'll just turn into" the teams high end talent won them games despite a bad coach" lol

Nah. Fans just want to win and boast. Thibs is the lowest fruit on why we lose. If we win there is no need to comolain.

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[thebuzzardman]

Then they will change their tune.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

No the Thibs haters won't, it'll just turn into" the teams high end talent won them games despite a bad coach" lol

Nah. Fans just want to win and boast. Thibs is the lowest fruit on why we lose. If we win there is no need to comolain.

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There won't be any post season boasting when the Pistons bounce the Knicks in 5 games

[LFGK]

my brother in Christ, why so negative lol.....gah damn man

[3toheadmelo]

It is not as clear cut as you put it. Mitch went down in early december last year and missed around 50 games as well. Randle miss like the final 30 games or so too. OG also missed a bunch of games with his elbow. This year's team by and large was more healthy than last year's team or at the very least comparable. Remember last january we were annihilating teams, even good teams left and right. Like 30 point demolitions...I think it was the winningiest and most lopsided month in Knick history.

As for the trade...like I said: Today I tend to still do it but it is not as clear cut as you put it. Think about this: There have been numerous players picked in the mid first round that have turned out pretty good. Direct example: Would you trade Randle + DD + Kelal Ware for Towns alone? Maybe you would but you can see how many would not. A 17th pick in a generationally deep draft is a big asset. Let's not disregard it as some 2nd round throw in.

As for Bridges: Well yeah you are basing this off his current contract but we all know that the extension is not going to look anything close to that. Would you still feel the same way about Bridges if he signed a 5 year/180- 190mill. extension in the offseason? Because that's where it is going to be.
If you look at the deals that were struck for DFS (only 2nd rounder involved), Hunter (only 2nd rounder involved), Ingram (1 FRP) than it is very rational to say that we overpaid vastly for Bridges. I personally don't like to speculate on alternatives but I bet you this: If you asked prior to last offseason what you'dd expect back for an expiring + 4 FRPs + Milwaukee's lighlty protected pick I think most people would have assumed all-star level talent. Not a 4th scoring option. And that's fair criticism.

I personally disliked Randle and I like Bridges and KAT but the general criticism is fair.

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

1. I'm not even a Randle supporter at all but I'll try to remain fair: Randle had a terrible showing against the Hawks but was also on a team where he got double and triple teamed all the time. And we all know he is not THAT dude that can continue scoring against that type of coverage. The following postseason he was really hobbled and last year he missed the playoff entirely. To me the jury is out on him. To me this year is either make or break for him in regards to playoff success. He now has that alpha dog next to him drawing the main attention and he has shotmakers around him too. No excuses but I will give him this run before I call him the worst playoff performer of all time. Technically I don't see why his game should not translate to the playoffs. Let's wait 4-5 more weeks before making that judgement.

2. I'm not sure why you compare Randle to Bridges, the comparison should be to KAT. And KAT has been solid in the playoffs but also far from great. Considering he is solely an offensive weapon his 19points/9rebounds last season in the first and 2nd round on 50/40 shooting are good but not outstanding. And then he was horrific in the WCF, shoting 38%/24% for 19points/8rebounds. The year before he was 18/10 on 46/25% against Denver. Again pretty bad. Before that he had a good series against Memphis with 22/10 on very efficient shooting. Against Houston in 2018 again a bad series with 15/13 on 47/27% shooting. So KAT has been mixed overall. 6 playoff series---3 good ones and 3 bad ones. Has really averaged 20+points only in 1 out of 6 series. For a solely offensive player that's not really good.

As for Bridges. I'll easily say that among 3-D wings his game is solid. I actually think the criticism on his defense throughout the season has been somewhat exaggerated. However I completely disagree with the notion of "you can simply re-acquire those picks". Bridges cost us a premium price and he does not perform at that level. I gave you examples of 3-D players literally at a fraction of what Bridges cost us. Now Bridges is somewhat better than those, but not like much much better.

To me this is not even a straight talent discussion. I could even go along with you with the notion that the talent level (top 7) on this team is good--maybe still a notch below Boston and OKC but not that much, but the fit is truly iffy and I think this is our main point of disagreement and contention. Boston's top 7 are all 2-way players that defend and shoot well. No exception. In our case the top 7 consists of:

2 defensive liabilities
1 weak shooter (Hart)
1 non-shooter (Mitch)

Boston is much more balanced. We have 4 players in our top 7 with major holes in their games. That's why you will see the Boston series not being even close. And IMO the only way out of this is through trading either KAT, Hart or Mitch. JB is going nowhere and will retire a knick (hopefully). Chemistry is not going to enable Hart to knock down 3s and is not going to make KAT and JB solid defenders. The roster is good enough to win 50-55 games for the upcoming 5 seasons and I appreciate knick fans saying that's a good place to be (considering 2000-2020), but if you wanna be elite --at least IMO-- the fit and balance of this roster needs some serious reconstruction. Adding a good 8th man is not going to put us in serious title contention. Now hopefully we'll see a different knick team in the second round and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

Excellent post.

[Spree2Houston]

Back to back 50 win seasons. 50-28 overall

Here's a breakdown of our record

42-6 vs Teams with losing records
8-22 vs Teams with winning records

84% of our wins have come vs losing teams
16% of our wins have come vs winning teams

Unfortunately in the playoffs we play winning teams

But nonetheless, BEST MID TEAM IN THE NBA!!!

I was speaking of the trajectory they were on and I was speaking in probabilities based on their performance at that time.

If you're going to be a receipts clown take it to the chitposting thread next time. TY

You know what? No!

Clyde_Style and Spree2Houston, both of you were flat out wrong. You guys were very emphatic about the Knicks not being able to make it to 50 wins, and the team proved you wrong. You wanted them to fail, and they didn't. Then you want to pull some fancy arguments to try to justify your position. Nope, you are not going to gaslight me or anyone on here!

If I ever wholeheartedly predict something on this forum, repeatedly tell you all it's going to happen, brag about how it's going to happen, and then I am flat out wrong, any of you all can feel free to call me out for being wrong. I'll be man enough to admit and say "my bad, I really got it wrong you guys".

Shoutout to tkknicks1 to being a real one and not trying to pull a whole bunch of mental gymnastics like you two.

If you’re going to dig up old posts then I’m sure you saw my posts at the start of the year about this team. I was high on the team. So my bad if I changed my mind and didn’t see a 50 win team. I’m not sure why you didn’t use those posts. I was wrong about the team not reaching 50 but I broke down their 50 wins for you. No gymnastics just hard facts. I’m not trying to distort your reality. Also loosely throwing the term gaslighting and acting like you speak for others is corny af. I can easily throw the terms deflection and character assassination from your post.

Anyways I’m not a believer in this team. Majority of our 50 wins came against bad teams. But my biggest problem with this team is they’re soft

[HopelessKnick]

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

1. I'm not even a Randle supporter at all but I'll try to remain fair: Randle had a terrible showing against the Hawks but was also on a team where he got double and triple teamed all the time. And we all know he is not THAT dude that can continue scoring against that type of coverage. The following postseason he was really hobbled and last year he missed the playoff entirely. To me the jury is out on him. To me this year is either make or break for him in regards to playoff success. He now has that alpha dog next to him drawing the main attention and he has shotmakers around him too. No excuses but I will give him this run before I call him the worst playoff performer of all time. Technically I don't see why his game should not translate to the playoffs. Let's wait 4-5 more weeks before making that judgement.

2. I'm not sure why you compare Randle to Bridges, the comparison should be to KAT. And KAT has been solid in the playoffs but also far from great. Considering he is solely an offensive weapon his 19points/9rebounds last season in the first and 2nd round on 50/40 shooting are good but not outstanding. And then he was horrific in the WCF, shoting 38%/24% for 19points/8rebounds. The year before he was 18/10 on 46/25% against Denver. Again pretty bad. Before that he had a good series against Memphis with 22/10 on very efficient shooting. Against Houston in 2018 again a bad series with 15/13 on 47/27% shooting. So KAT has been mixed overall. 6 playoff series---3 good ones and 3 bad ones. Has really averaged 20+points only in 1 out of 6 series. For a solely offensive player that's not really good.

As for Bridges. I'll easily say that among 3-D wings his game is solid. I actually think the criticism on his defense throughout the season has been somewhat exaggerated. However I completely disagree with the notion of "you can simply re-acquire those picks". Bridges cost us a premium price and he does not perform at that level. I gave you examples of 3-D players literally at a fraction of what Bridges cost us. Now Bridges is somewhat better than those, but not like much much better.

To me this is not even a straight talent discussion. I could even go along with you with the notion that the talent level (top 7) on this team is good--maybe still a notch below Boston and OKC but not that much, but the fit is truly iffy and I think this is our main point of disagreement and contention. Boston's top 7 are all 2-way players that defend and shoot well. No exception. In our case the top 7 consists of:

2 defensive liabilities
1 weak shooter (Hart)
1 non-shooter (Mitch)

Boston is much more balanced. We have 4 players in our top 7 with major holes in their games. That's why you will see the Boston series not being even close. And IMO the only way out of this is through trading either KAT, Hart or Mitch. JB is going nowhere and will retire a knick (hopefully). Chemistry is not going to enable Hart to knock down 3s and is not going to make KAT and JB solid defenders. The roster is good enough to win 50-55 games for the upcoming 5 seasons and I appreciate knick fans saying that's a good place to be (considering 2000-2020), but if you wanna be elite --at least IMO-- the fit and balance of this roster needs some serious reconstruction. Adding a good 8th man is not going to put us in serious title contention. Now hopefully we'll see a different knick team in the second round and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

That was only because you brought up Bridges extension after next season. We obviously traded Randle for a better player anyway, so my point was that Randle is up for an extension too.

I think Randle at his best is not a reliable player at all and his numbers on the Knicks were very much inflated due to a lack of overall talent on those teams. We’re seeing it this year.

It’s really as simple as pointing towards his playing style and that’s my entire point: we improved in terms of off the ball movement and passing when we traded him. I particularly love this about our team and disagree with the notion that there are iffy fits. That was true when Randle and RJ were still here. Ultimately, this is going to be winning basketball because the ball movement is off the charts and we have some very dependable shooters. We now have Brunson, plus three players who are just as efficient players as Randle and some are even straight up better than him (OG, Towns). I won’t say Bridges is better, but he is a better defender and given that he’s such a good defender and great off the ball, plus automatic from mid-range, he is a more efficient or rather more useful player for any team, regardless of any numbers people will feel tempted to bring up. I don’t want to compare the two players much at all, that’s not my point, but I do want to stress that we improved our team a lot from last season. For a player capable of what Bridges has shown at such a salary, you have to give up value. We didn’t give up any valuable player, so you give up picks.

Oh and let me add one thing about Boston, who I agree are somewhat superior talent-wise: you cannot call Jrue or Brown good shooters this year. They have flaws too, just like we have comparably talented players in Brunson, Towns, OG etc. Cohesion is everything. They had been trying like five or six times before coming through and people had dumped on Tatum just like they have been trashing Towns. And speaking of Brown, do you think we could’ve acquired him or this type of talent in general (22.6 ppg, 32 3P%) for Bogdanovic and five picks? I say no, not even close. People love to make it sound like we sold our souls to the devil, but I guess we simply paid market value.

I mean Holiday is shooting 35.3% from 3 and Brown 32.6%. Brown's shooting has been off, considering he is a 36% career shooter from 3 but leave the numbers aside for a moment: Would you feel comfortable leaving Holiday and Brown wide open in a series? Probably not. Hart will be left completely open and he hasn't been able to take advantage of it. The practical implication to me matters much more than the exact shooting number for the year. On the Celtics you aren't leaving any of their top 8 players open intentionally. On the Knicks you don't guard Hart and Mitch on the perimeter. That's already a big difference and puts a limit on our offense.

Like I said in my earlier post, I don't like to speculate too much about trades because we don't have any real facts to base it on mostly. To be honest, I have zero clue what could have been possible with an expiring and 5 FRPs. But looking at the rate 3-D players were traded 6months later at the deadline, the price was way too high. If marketwise DFS and Hunter aren't even worth a single FRP and Ingram nets only 1 FRP...then IMO Bridges falls way short of 5. Bridges IMO is better than Hunter, but not by a large margin. If Hunter was worth 1 FRP (which he didn't even net) than for Bridges I'd give up an additional FRP, not more. I'll give you an example (I know this is not possible...just to make the point): If I had to choose between giving up 5 FRPs for Bridges or trading 1FRP for a guy like Hunter or Nesmith while keeping 4FRPs I would much much much rather go option B. Not even close IMO. I read somewhere Ainge was looking for 2 unprotected FRPs for a Kessler/Sexton package...again to me much better deal although it doesn't address our wing need.

[3toheadmelo]

Literally the worst defensive big in the league

[matchman]

Concerning the thread title: Does anyone have an idea why OG is so much quicker and more explosive lately? It seems like he has gone in the quickness, explosiveness department from 6/10 to like 8/10. Sometimes I seem him slash and am surprised how fluid and quick he is nowadays...

I think part of it is he's been consistently healthy. He's rarely had a chance to build up to something and sustain it.

The yoga class has helped him a lot

[spree2kawhi]

I like your modest approach. I don’t agree with most points though, because the first-rounders can be re-acquired. You cannot deal them and cry about who was drafted with them. It’s not professional. You can re-acquire draft picks.

Let’s look at Bridges briefly: won’t miss from mid-range, great slasher, still top-level perimeter defender (you could not not see it recently), fourth option for us at 24 million, is signed through 2026 at that rate and has proven over and over that he can be a 22 ppg scorer if needed. Considering his unselfish playing style and two-way prowess, you could say (I would) that he can be and recently has been a more efficient basketball player than Julius Randle and we saw that a lot this year: over his last ten games he’s scored 19.9 ppg, 4.8 apg on 51.9 FG%, 37 3P%, 90.9 FT%. We paid a lot, but I’d simply say we paid the price. Tell me, who are other wings who can do all that? Meanwhile, Randle has been good too, but he doesn’t guard nor show any effort, is small for his position and as we all know his assists will often be passes to bail himself out. In many cases he’ll frustrate you with his turnovers. I’m glad we traded him for Towns and acquired two versatile wings. That’s how you build a team. You criticize Bridges for underperforming in crucial games? It cannot be repeated enough how Randle has literally been the worst playoff performer in the entire history of the NBA. So, to your point, how is his extension going to look? Seriously, how?

As for the rest of the roster: we’re seeing great improvements not only from Bridges, but OG too. He’s playing with supreme confidence and had hinted at a lack thereof as well as trust from his teammates in postgame interviews multiple times in December. Chemistry is growing and I’m very confident in our ability to win come playoff time. Don’t forget Mitchell Robinson. Most of Cleveland’s success should be attributed to their rim protection. I am not going to overrate Donovan Mitchell because of their team success. Give Mitch some more time to get good feet wet and he can add a dimension this so-called “flawed” roster hasn’t had. We are a dominant rim-protector away from legit contention, and we even have that dimension already. But Mitch was injured and he can unlock this. Towns has averaged 24 PPG, 12 rpg on 42.5 3P% - I won’t even listen to the slander or Giannis BS.

The three very good teams have unreal cohesion, but are they really any more talented on paper than we are? It’s cohesion that we’ve been struggling with, not talent or Bridges or Towns, and you simply cannot expect that type of cohesion yet - at least if you’re not a troll.

We are clearly getting there and you (all) should open your eyes to this evolution. If anything, this team is lacking another terrifying shot-blocker, and we can easily add that. What I’ll give you here is that Ware would be that player. But you’re underrating Bridges. To me, the criticism is nonsense. This is an up and coming team.

1. I'm not even a Randle supporter at all but I'll try to remain fair: Randle had a terrible showing against the Hawks but was also on a team where he got double and triple teamed all the time. And we all know he is not THAT dude that can continue scoring against that type of coverage. The following postseason he was really hobbled and last year he missed the playoff entirely. To me the jury is out on him. To me this year is either make or break for him in regards to playoff success. He now has that alpha dog next to him drawing the main attention and he has shotmakers around him too. No excuses but I will give him this run before I call him the worst playoff performer of all time. Technically I don't see why his game should not translate to the playoffs. Let's wait 4-5 more weeks before making that judgement.

2. I'm not sure why you compare Randle to Bridges, the comparison should be to KAT. And KAT has been solid in the playoffs but also far from great. Considering he is solely an offensive weapon his 19points/9rebounds last season in the first and 2nd round on 50/40 shooting are good but not outstanding. And then he was horrific in the WCF, shoting 38%/24% for 19points/8rebounds. The year before he was 18/10 on 46/25% against Denver. Again pretty bad. Before that he had a good series against Memphis with 22/10 on very efficient shooting. Against Houston in 2018 again a bad series with 15/13 on 47/27% shooting. So KAT has been mixed overall. 6 playoff series---3 good ones and 3 bad ones. Has really averaged 20+points only in 1 out of 6 series. For a solely offensive player that's not really good.

As for Bridges. I'll easily say that among 3-D wings his game is solid. I actually think the criticism on his defense throughout the season has been somewhat exaggerated. However I completely disagree with the notion of "you can simply re-acquire those picks". Bridges cost us a premium price and he does not perform at that level. I gave you examples of 3-D players literally at a fraction of what Bridges cost us. Now Bridges is somewhat better than those, but not like much much better.

To me this is not even a straight talent discussion. I could even go along with you with the notion that the talent level (top 7) on this team is good--maybe still a notch below Boston and OKC but not that much, but the fit is truly iffy and I think this is our main point of disagreement and contention. Boston's top 7 are all 2-way players that defend and shoot well. No exception. In our case the top 7 consists of:

2 defensive liabilities
1 weak shooter (Hart)
1 non-shooter (Mitch)

Boston is much more balanced. We have 4 players in our top 7 with major holes in their games. That's why you will see the Boston series not being even close. And IMO the only way out of this is through trading either KAT, Hart or Mitch. JB is going nowhere and will retire a knick (hopefully). Chemistry is not going to enable Hart to knock down 3s and is not going to make KAT and JB solid defenders. The roster is good enough to win 50-55 games for the upcoming 5 seasons and I appreciate knick fans saying that's a good place to be (considering 2000-2020), but if you wanna be elite --at least IMO-- the fit and balance of this roster needs some serious reconstruction. Adding a good 8th man is not going to put us in serious title contention. Now hopefully we'll see a different knick team in the second round and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

Excellent post.

It really is a very good post that brings your and my position together, but it doesn’t change that I view this team much more positively than you two. Here’s why:

I agree that Boston is much more balanced and a lot better, but saying the talent-gap is too big to be overcome is too simplistic. They’ve had time to grow and fail, we’re just getting started. Remember how they’ve tried the same with Kyrie and this group. Marcus Smart etc. their core has grown together for years, and they still have lots of weaknesses. KP can shoot, but he’s nowhere near the shooter Towns is. That is a reality that makes a difference. Brown and Jrue Holiday haven’t been great shooters this year. They are years ahead of us, but we can absolutely get there with this core. Of course Tatum is top notch, but we have Brunson. They have Brown, we have Towns. Derrick White is so nice, we have OG. They added KP, but he’s injury prone. We have Mikal Bridges. Jrue Holiday and Pritchard are likely better than Deuce and Hart and then there’s Horford, but man, we’re right there and our team ain’t trash like y’all say. It’s just not true. We can absolutely grow from within and get there. They do have interior defense, and without Mitch we’ve been sorely lacking in that area. Mitch is on our roster though and he is a dog. Plus, that is something that can of course be added. Cohesion is our problem.

Cohesion is also why the Cavs took the leap. They aren’t more talented than we are. But they’ve grown last year and are a cohesive unit this year. Talent-wise they’re not better than us at all, but they’ve got incredible interior defense - we’ve been missing Robinson. I see no problem and again, I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to grow and edge them.

I see defensive liabilities in Brunson and possibly Towns, but Garland and Strus are even worse and so on. I see the same amount of bad shooters on the other teams too: Brown, Holiday, Allen, Mobley, Hartenstein etc.

No team is perfect but they all have been together longer, failed before, grown, struggled, overcome adversity and added minor pieces. I think that’s a fair point I’m making here. There is no reason to panic and I won’t. There was never a quick fix and never any reason not to do the trades we did.

I do however see a reason why it was very necessary to replace Randle with Towns and as painful as it may be, numbers will never tell the story. Towns easily edges anything Randle has ever put up, but most importantly - as I’ve pointed out so many times - his playing style is much more efficient and reliable. He won’t get into trouble offensively, will make the easy and the backdoor pass, will always be an elite shooter which vastly benefits the others and keeps that backdoor open. If you don’t like him defensively, not even at the 4 (which I think is unfair), you have to hate Randle. Towns is always engaged and really understands the game. I’m glad we upgraded, and if you view him as soft, you’re simply wrong. He plays winning basketball and that was on display before, so you should relax.

The same can be said for Bridges. He has absolutely grown into his role here and is a plus-player. In contrast to what was said by the OP, there are not many two-way wings in this league that are better than him. We got him here and it is such an underrated fact that he fits under our salary cap. His recent play in a bigger role has been very convincing and even though it’s not the popular talking point, he does not leave too much to be desired. Name better wings on both sides of the court at that salary. Good luck with that. Of course you can argue that there are cheaper options, but they are worse players and that would be exploited in a playoff series. Alex Caruso, to give a random example, is not on his level. He may be a lot better defensively, but he’s nowhere near the player Bridges is and ultimately, that will show. I’m not even sure Derrick White is too much better, certainly more steady and proven recently, but that goes to show you how good Bridges actually is. It is comparable and I wouldn’t want less for a playoff run. Be more optimistic. I am.

Last year’s team overachieved and ultimately flamed out. It should go without saying that their playing style was never going to translate into another deep playoff run (Randle’s limitations, iso-heavy offense, lack of defense, Hartenstein would’ve bolted anyway etc.). Considering the room for internal growth this young team clearly has and the years Boston has given their core to grow, the leap Cleveland has taken from last year without changing much and the positive things our players actually do provide if you look at the strengths and the ball movement that’s already in place, I strongly disagree that this is a flawed roster that needs a shakeup. The notion that there are any limitations this roster has in comparison to other teams is flat-out wrong imo. The flaws have been addressed last offseason and the other top teams are merely a year or two ahead. Now this up and coming team needs time to grow.