Shams: Nuggets Fire Malone & Booth

[nomansland]

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

It would have put them in 2nd Apron hell, even further limiting their options. The Kroenkes will spend if it makes sense- with KCP it didn't, and it turns out to be one of the smart moves Booth made. Big respect to KCP but he's on the downside of his career now.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Every fan of every team wants to fire their coach, including Warriors/Spurs/Heat fans. The worst source for whether a coach should be fired is the fanbase.

Plenty of nuggets fans in this thread have put forth exstensive posts that shows why they're happy Malone is out. I'd much rather trust that than - He won a title how do you fire him?

The problem with fanbases and coaching is fans can pretend they can do better than the guy coaching, because a lot of what a coach does comes down to decisions that fans can constantly second guess, such as minutes, feeding the hot hand, rotations, last second play, etc. When a player sucks the fan doesn't think "well I could play better", so second guessing the coach comes much more naturally.

In addition, its easy to replace a coach, they don't have guaranteed contracts and the NBA (along with most professional sports) have created a culture where firing the coach every season is considered acceptable. Its much more difficult to replace players, so the fans always look to switch out the coach first.

None of this is to say I'm an expert on Malone or Denver's situation, just pointing out, a coach's own fanbase wanting him gone is nothing unique to Denver, it happens to every fanbase, even the ones with mainstays like Kerr/Pop/Spo.

it's not about doing better, but noticing an element of stubborness and pettiness, consistent over the years, who is now being pointed out as one of the reasons for his departure.
I am not suggesting I would.do better than him, I wouldn't know where to start. But there were some choices that would have been pretty obvious if coaching amd GM were on the same page, something we see in better situations like OKC, Miami or even Memphis, before the last few months.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Well why weren't these offered to keep him? Alternatively, Booth was the best choice? But who else *did* Booth draft vs. who was available? Who gave the massive Murray contract? Let good role players walk - sure they're not doing as well on other teams, but they proved their value to Nugs. I get going younger, but then handing out a huge contract to JM and not landing late picks and not stockpiling any is brutal.

This is a lotto team without Jokic. That's precarious and not sustainable for a contender.

They won an NBA title without Masai and Connelly. By the way, NBA fans are on Masai's neck saying he's become Joe Dumars as a GM, so we need to stop with the revisionist history here. Connelly was called dumb for the Gobert trade, then praised up until the WCF, and then called a moron again once KAT was traded. He also is the one who gave Michael Porter Jr. a max contract extension early, for no reason.

The Nuggets are a promote from within front office. The following guys have been in the GM/VP of Basketball Operations seat, all left for more money or a bigger opportunity at some point:

Pete D'Alessandro
Masai Ujiri
Arturas Karnisovas
Tim Connelly

Calvin Booth was just the latest person in their front office to be promoted after being assistant GM. Their current assistant GM is Tommy Balcetis. I'm guessing, based on the Nuggets history, that he is just going to slide into that job.

Letting Bruce Brown walk is not on the Nuggets, because they didn't let him walk. He opted out and they couldn't beat the Pacers offer. KCP took a better offer than Booth was allowed to make by ownership. If you want to blame him for not being able to convince KCP to leave 10-15 million on the table, so be it. As for the Jamal Murray extension, ownership has to eat that as much as Booth does. They chose to reward someone who was a 1B in their only championship. I'm not going to kill them for that. In his career,Murray has played like a superstar in the playoffs, so maybe they don't care about his lack of regular season dominance (because the NBA regular season does not matter).

Booth drafted players that Malone wouldn't play, that's an issue. Everyone says the players suck. Harteinstein didn't play for Malone (and look at him now). Neither did Jay Huff (and Memphis found value in him). I mean, the Nuggets historically have found good young talent and developed it as it was the only way they could win since they never get anyone in FA.

Most teams are lotto teams without their MVP level talent. That's not saying much. The only one that probably isn't is Boston (and some of that is attributed to being in the East). How good is OKC without Shai? Sacramento level?

Not sure how Ujiri factors into this...

Connelly's work is largely responsible for the roster that won. That he wasn't there anymore is moot.

Wolves are no longer in cap hell and have more flexibility going forward. TC made a choice to give up a lot for Gobert and then made a choice to build around Ant, moving KAT, getting said flexibility in the process.

Booth has been a massive **** up. Massive. Like almost nobody here is surprised his contract would not have been extended this summer.

Contenders that would not be lotto teams without their best player:

Boston

Cleveland

Knicks

OKC

Houston

LAC

LAL

And to lesser extents Minny and GS who bolstered themselves with strong secondary support.

Contenders that are lotto teams without their best player:

Denver

Milwaukee (well kind of unfair with Dame out)

Probably GS - depending on how long Curry would be out if injured, but when he sits, they're not brutal.

Dallas has a strong, balanced team but their two best assets are out but even when one is playing they have better chances of treading water.

So yeah, most of the top tier contenders ensure they can sustain some level of respectable play when a star sits or is out.

total overstatement.
his issue has been his relationship with Malone, and both are responsible for it.
he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

[G R E Y]

They won an NBA title without Masai and Connelly. By the way, NBA fans are on Masai's neck saying he's become Joe Dumars as a GM, so we need to stop with the revisionist history here. Connelly was called dumb for the Gobert trade, then praised up until the WCF, and then called a moron again once KAT was traded. He also is the one who gave Michael Porter Jr. a max contract extension early, for no reason.

The Nuggets are a promote from within front office. The following guys have been in the GM/VP of Basketball Operations seat, all left for more money or a bigger opportunity at some point:

Pete D'Alessandro
Masai Ujiri
Arturas Karnisovas
Tim Connelly

Calvin Booth was just the latest person in their front office to be promoted after being assistant GM. Their current assistant GM is Tommy Balcetis. I'm guessing, based on the Nuggets history, that he is just going to slide into that job.

Letting Bruce Brown walk is not on the Nuggets, because they didn't let him walk. He opted out and they couldn't beat the Pacers offer. KCP took a better offer than Booth was allowed to make by ownership. If you want to blame him for not being able to convince KCP to leave 10-15 million on the table, so be it. As for the Jamal Murray extension, ownership has to eat that as much as Booth does. They chose to reward someone who was a 1B in their only championship. I'm not going to kill them for that. In his career,Murray has played like a superstar in the playoffs, so maybe they don't care about his lack of regular season dominance (because the NBA regular season does not matter).

Booth drafted players that Malone wouldn't play, that's an issue. Everyone says the players suck. Harteinstein didn't play for Malone (and look at him now). Neither did Jay Huff (and Memphis found value in him). I mean, the Nuggets historically have found good young talent and developed it as it was the only way they could win since they never get anyone in FA.

Most teams are lotto teams without their MVP level talent. That's not saying much. The only one that probably isn't is Boston (and some of that is attributed to being in the East). How good is OKC without Shai? Sacramento level?

Not sure how Ujiri factors into this...

Connelly's work is largely responsible for the roster that won. That he wasn't there anymore is moot.

Wolves are no longer in cap hell and have more flexibility going forward. TC made a choice to give up a lot for Gobert and then made a choice to build around Ant, moving KAT, getting said flexibility in the process.

Booth has been a massive **** up. Massive. Like almost nobody here is surprised his contract would not have been extended this summer.

Contenders that would not be lotto teams without their best player:

Boston

Cleveland

Knicks

OKC

Houston

LAC

LAL

And to lesser extents Minny and GS who bolstered themselves with strong secondary support.

Contenders that are lotto teams without their best player:

Denver

Milwaukee (well kind of unfair with Dame out)

Probably GS - depending on how long Curry would be out if injured, but when he sits, they're not brutal.

Dallas has a strong, balanced team but their two best assets are out but even when one is playing they have better chances of treading water.

So yeah, most of the top tier contenders ensure they can sustain some level of respectable play when a star sits or is out.

total overstatement.
his issue has been his relationship with Malone, and both are responsible for it.
he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

Drafting and Murray contract and overpaying for other players and then having to add whatever picks were left to dump for example Jackson's contract were issues. Could have used three seconds for a back up big, for instance.

What great moves has he made?

Nuggets fans seem united on Booth going front.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Agree, agree, and yeah, makes sense.

I think the Murray/Porter contracts haven't worked out well, but it's hard to say that they were utterly incompetent for them. Literally both players played up to the level of those contract BEFORE they ever signed them, they've just not been able to be consistently on that level after. Sometimes that's how it goes.

The thing is though, while it absolutely makes sense with the cap to decide on your core guys - in this case Jokic/Murray/Porter/Gordon - and not letting the rest of your team get bloated with bigger contracts, if 2 of those 4 core guys aren't working out like they were supposed to, you're really not in a position where you can sacrifice depth and remain competitive.

Further, while no matter how rich the owner is I respect frugality, when you recognize that you now have not just a clear cut franchise player, but by far the best player you'll ever have on this franchise until you die, this isn't the time to cut corners. Maybe you recognize that KCP isn't what you need as your 5th guy going forward and you wan to give Braun a shot, but that doesn't mean you just let talent walk out the door in free agency. When you let a guy go, you want depth in return.

it's not just about talent, you must fit that talent in your salary structure.
it's not just about affording it financially, there are significant limitations and future implications for signing KCP in Denver that imo would have not made it worthy

[nomansland]

he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Not sure how Ujiri factors into this...

Connelly's work is largely responsible for the roster that won. That he wasn't there anymore is moot.

Wolves are no longer in cap hell and have more flexibility going forward. TC made a choice to give up a lot for Gobert and then made a choice to build around Ant, moving KAT, getting said flexibility in the process.

Booth has been a massive **** up. Massive. Like almost nobody here is surprised his contract would not have been extended this summer.

Contenders that would not be lotto teams without their best player:

Boston

Cleveland

Knicks

OKC

Houston

LAC

LAL

And to lesser extents Minny and GS who bolstered themselves with strong secondary support.

Contenders that are lotto teams without their best player:

Denver

Milwaukee (well kind of unfair with Dame out)

Probably GS - depending on how long Curry would be out if injured, but when he sits, they're not brutal.

Dallas has a strong, balanced team but their two best assets are out but even when one is playing they have better chances of treading water.

So yeah, most of the top tier contenders ensure they can sustain some level of respectable play when a star sits or is out.

total overstatement.
his issue has been his relationship with Malone, and both are responsible for it.
he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

Drafting and Murray contract and overpaying for other players and then having to add whatever picks were left to dump for example Jackson's contract were issues. Could have used three seconds for a back up big, for instance.

What great moves has he made?

Nuggets fans seem united on Booth going front.

Trading for KCP? Signing Brown? Drafting Braun with late first round pick? Dragting Watson with a late first round pick?

[Wigginstime]

he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

This is why Booth should be fired.

There was no way to keep Brown and KCP wasn't worth 2nd apron hell. You basically had to pay Murray. I don't blame Booth for any of that. The fact that the Nuggets have the worst bench in the league is 100% Booth's fault. The signings above were all terrible.

[G R E Y]

total overstatement.
his issue has been his relationship with Malone, and both are responsible for it.
he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

Drafting and Murray contract and overpaying for other players and then having to add whatever picks were left to dump for example Jackson's contract were issues. Could have used three seconds for a back up big, for instance.

What great moves has he made?

Nuggets fans seem united on Booth going front.

Trading for KCP? Signing Brown? Drafting Braun with late first round pick? Dragting Watson with a late first round pick?

You left out the rest of the KCP and Brown histories with Denver.

Guess we'll see what contributions Denver's great bench has been held back from giving soon enough.

[BelgradeNugget]

he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

I agree 100%. Big problem with Booth was player options. Giving it to Jackson/Saric/Russ was bad, but giving it to Zake is inexcusable.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

you forgot trading 3 picks for Thomas Bryant.
but I don't see these as firable offenses (the Russ one in particular looks like a good move, actually).
not he had his FRP overperforminv their position.
and, once again, I am convinced a lot of this is coming from hisbfeud with Malone.
Some of these were not bad moves per se. They were when you and your coach are fighting on everything and he'll use the players to attack you.
Some others were move you can defend but that didn't work.

[G R E Y]

Denver does not have its own first pick until 2031. All the 1sts between 2025 and 2030 are Denver's only 1-5; after that they go to other teams.

The 2nds hardly fare much better.

Not sure how all that came to be, but with a clear superstar on the roster, doing things like giving up three seconds to get rid of a contract you signed to begin with magnify all of it - the contract, and the giving away of the picks.

Several years into the job and hardly any picks and little cap maneuverability is negligence.

By all means develop youth on the margins. But expecting them to be key cogs on a contender during a superstar's prime is folly. This was a cheap way through for Booth and it got exposed.

[BelgradeNugget]

Denver does not have its own first pick until 2031. All the 1sts between 2025 and 2030 are Denver's only 1-5; after that they go to other teams.

The 2nds hardly fare much better.

Not sure how all that came to be, but with a clear superstar on the roster, doing things like giving up three seconds to get rid of a contract you signed to begin with magnify all of it - the contract, and the giving away of the picks.

Several years into the job and hardly any picks and little cap maneuverability is negligence.

By all means develop youth on the margins. But expecting them to be key cogs on a contender during a superstar's prime is folly. This was a cheap way through for Booth and it got exposed.

Picks part of your post is not really what it is. Nuggets traded 2025 1st with Garry Harris for Aaron Gordon. 1-5 protected. Then they traded 2027 1st 1-5 protected for draft rights to Payton Watson. And they traded 2029 1st, 1-5 protected for picks (low 1st (#30), and two high seconds) they used to draft Strawther, Pickett, and Tyson. Those were good trades IMO. Instead of waiting few years to draft players they got earlier picks to draft players they tried to develop. Other 1st picks are untredable due to restrictions to traded ones, but Nuggets have them.
I think better way was to trade picks for good wets, but we don't know what was on the table.

[iggymcfrack]

This is a crazy season. I guess nothing should really surprise us anymore.

I thought there would be some major changes in Denver in the off-season. Didn't expect it right now.

Way up there with the most random, most unorthodox regular seasons ever.

Personally think some decisions are being made at high seed teams because front offices don't yet realize this is just what parity looks like. No top team is really superior enough to lay belt every week.

The Thunder are literally having the most dominant regular season of all-time. This is the first season with two 60 win teams since 2017 and if the Celtics win one of their last 3 games they’ll be the third.

If anything, it’s the opposite issue. 2 years ago when the Nuggets got the 1 seed with 53 wins and won the title, we were in an era of parity and teams could talk themselves into maybe getting lucky and winning a title even if they weren’t that good. Now a team that had the talent to compete for a championship then can look at the league and be like “well if we don’t get a LOT better we have zero chance of beating the Thunder in the next five years”.

That leads to desperate moves like big firings and trades because teams feel like there’s too much ground to possibly make up if they don’t make a big move and swing for the fences.

[Exp0sed]

he made som great moves, some bad moves and some ok ones.
but nothing really franchisw killing, as the top 4 were already set before his arrival. He could only work on the margins

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

you forgot trading 3 picks for Thomas Bryant.
but I don't see these as firable offenses (the Russ one in particular looks like a good move, actually).
not he had his FRP overperforminv their position.
and, once again, I am convinced a lot of this is coming from hisbfeud with Malone.
Some of these were not bad moves per se. They were when you and your coach are fighting on everything and he'll use the players to attack you.
Some others were move you can defend but that didn't work.

so we can see evidence of this split between Malone and Booth from back then. Booth trades 3 picks for Bryant which was crazy at the time. I mean, Bryant is a decent player but the Nuggets lacked front court depth, especially on the defensive end and Bryant is a "big" but plays no defense and doesn't have the size of an actual big. so okay, that's a terrible use of assets but then Malone doesn't even play Bryant at all..that doesn't seem normal, seems like Booth was making these moves without consulting his HC which is kinda weird..

[og15]

That's a reasonable take, but his moves on the margins were pretty damaging.

- signing Zeke to 4 years at $8million per
- giving Jackson the 2nd year option, then trading 3 2nds to move him
- giving Saric the 2nd year option
- giving Russ the 2nd year option (Russ has been better than expected, but he didn't have to do that)
- basically telling the rest of the league who he wanted to draft, severely weakening his leverage when moving around the draft ladder

Each of these things on in isolation is forgiveable but in agregate they leave the Nugs in a pretty bad spot.

you forgot trading 3 picks for Thomas Bryant.
but I don't see these as firable offenses (the Russ one in particular looks like a good move, actually).
not he had his FRP overperforminv their position.
and, once again, I am convinced a lot of this is coming from hisbfeud with Malone.
Some of these were not bad moves per se. They were when you and your coach are fighting on everything and he'll use the players to attack you.
Some others were move you can defend but that didn't work.

so we can see evidence of this split between Malone and Booth from back then. Booth trades 3 picks for Bryant which was crazy at the time. I mean, Bryant is a decent player but the Nuggets lacked front court depth, especially on the defensive end and Bryant is a "big" but plays no defense and doesn't have the size of an actual big. so okay, that's a terrible use of assets but then Malone doesn't even play Bryant at all..that doesn't seem normal, seems like Booth was making these moves without consulting his HC which is kinda weird..

The Nuggets podcast someone linked to discussing this basically were saying that it became a situation of Malone doesn't like a player because he sees them as a Calvin Booth player and Booth doesn't like a player if he's viewing them as a Malone guy.

That's just a very dysfunctional way to operate. Trading assets for players when the coach doesn't want them or is going to deliberately not use them to prove a point, that kind of stuff is damaging.

[Dupp]

The Nuggets weren't going anywhere this season anyway.

They were more likely to go 'somewhere' than any team not in Boston, OKC, Cleveland, and maybe LA.

So by that logic. Every other coach in the association needs to go. right?

Except they were trending in the wrong direction. Winning a title to 2nd round exit to likely 1st round exit, we saw that trend with the Lakers under Vogel, and Bucks under Bud. He was gone either way. Better to do it now.

Roster issue.

[GeorgeSears]

They were more likely to go 'somewhere' than any team not in Boston, OKC, Cleveland, and maybe LA.

So by that logic. Every other coach in the association needs to go. right?

Except they were trending in the wrong direction. Winning a title to 2nd round exit to likely 1st round exit, we saw that trend with the Lakers under Vogel, and Bucks under Bud. He was gone either way. Better to do it now.

Roster issue.

I'm not defending the roster. But it was Malone's job to create a lineup that could weather the storm with Jokic sitting on the bench.

[Pointgod]

Seriously though hat the **** are the Nuggets doing?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Denver does not have its own first pick until 2031. All the 1sts between 2025 and 2030 are Denver's only 1-5; after that they go to other teams.

The 2nds hardly fare much better.

Not sure how all that came to be, but with a clear superstar on the roster, doing things like giving up three seconds to get rid of a contract you signed to begin with magnify all of it - the contract, and the giving away of the picks.

Several years into the job and hardly any picks and little cap maneuverability is negligence.

By all means develop youth on the margins. But expecting them to be key cogs on a contender during a superstar's prime is folly. This was a cheap way through for Booth and it got exposed.

Picks part of your post is not really what it is. Nuggets traded 2025 1st with Garry Harris for Aaron Gordon. 1-5 protected. Then they traded 2027 1st 1-5 protected for draft rights to Payton Watson. And they traded 2029 1st, 1-5 protected for picks (low 1st (#30), and two high seconds) they used to draft Strawther, Pickett, and Tyson. Those were good trades IMO. Instead of waiting few years to draft players they got earlier picks to draft players they tried to develop. Other 1st picks are untredable due to restrictions to traded ones, but Nuggets have them.
I think better way was to trade picks for good wets, but we don't know what was on the table.

Good vets cost *money* and are likely to leave after 1-2 years. Not sure they would have been in a better situation now