knicks lose....i blame mpharris who blames thibs

[god shammgod]

the problem is that we don't have anybody on the team who prefers taking 3s to anything else. we had that with donte but we don't now. everybody would rather penetrate. thibs has said many times that he wants corner 3s and shots at the rim because he's following the analytics. it's up to them to take them.

The corner three is easier to defend now, you're making a case against Thibs by even saying that, he's using old concepts . The Celtics shoot most of their threes above the break, as do the Cavs and Thunder. The Celtics have taken nearly 3000 threes from the wings and top of the key, roughly 800 from the corners. A bulk of threes on elite teams come from the wings now, because the goal is to extend the opponents' defense.


We have Brunson and KAT and yet Pritchard and KP have combined for more threes off a screen than them.

we've shot way more from the wings too because it's what the defense gives you. but it's still a more efficient shot from the corners. the math remains the same.

i don't buy the idea that thibs is against shooting more 3s. he just lets the players decide and a lot of them want to put the ball on the floor. it is what it is.

[Gravy]

They talk about how you cant win in the playoffs with KAT at center 12:50. "his defensive deficiencies gives up the two most efficient shots in basketball, open three pointers and shots at the basket..."

Watch on YouTube

[Chanel Bomber]

The thing is, you can still get threes even with a non shooter on the floor if you're willing to extend where your offense starts. We don't do that, we still play at the 3 point line most of the time. A lot of these teams have extended where they start setting screens, basically copying the Warriors really.





The Celtics were generating looks from three with Luke Kornet in the corner and Jrue in the other (.355%). OG had to worry about Tatum maybe setting a screen there at 30 feet, it was a play with multiple options and the 3 best players involved. I don't even know if we've run action like that with a screen by KAT at 26 feet for OG, have you seen it? Cause I'm trying to remember, but then I recall that video from a month ago that said we only had 10 threes for KAT off a screen, so probably not.

It's definitely a problem. My point was moreso that it doesn't diminish the impact of the corner shooter, both as an output and as a space (and efficiency) enhancer.

Towns is one of the best shooters in the NBA, is 7-feet tall, and can shoot from the logo. I may not be as harsh on Thibs as you are, but this team's primary (secondary at worst) tactical goal should be to generate threes for KAT. Coming off screens, pick-and-roll, catch and shoot, the whole thing. Thibs has an Arri Alexa in his hands but his lighting sucks and his framing is basic af.

I can't find any data on KAT, but Kristaps average three point shot is 27 feet, which is just how they've been able to extend the floor. It doesn't diminish, but the corner three for the Celtics is secondary to the wing threes, because they get you to guard further out if they're generating wing, so the middle is open as well. The corner three is still important, but it doesn't break team defense like it did a decade ago.

We fundamentally agree though, I'm not diminishing the corner three, just that the elites hunt the wing three more now.


We used to have such classic duels, debating like gentlemen, without the need for extreme hyperbole unless it was me describing the outfit you wore to fashion week....which was most likely Ostrich feather jeans by Rick Owens, and a 1 of 1 Silk shirt made by a tibetan man you met in Sri Lanka.

NoDope x Chanel

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[WaltFrazier]

Florida education system has failed my boy

3 > 2

KAT in the post would work better if he had four 3 point shooters to fan it out to. Rather than the center guarding Hart to be free to double KAT

Hart wouldn't basket cut? He's Forced to shoot the 3?

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

He does basket cut. Sometimes works. But his man, often the center, plays off him, in the paint. It'd be better if he provided spacing along with the threat of cutting

[Besart19]

the problem is that we don't have anybody on the team who prefers taking 3s to anything else. we had that with donte but we don't now. everybody would rather penetrate. thibs has said many times that he wants corner 3s and shots at the rim because he's following the analytics. it's up to them to take them.

you cant do that with Hart on the court... unless he is willing to play a supersmall Center and be the main screener for Brunson

plus Mikal is suspect at hitting the 3 in a constant basis

Ironically our best lineup is Brunson - McBride - Anunoby - Towns - Robinson... but neither Leon would give up on Mikal nor Thibs on Josh

[dakomish23]

All the negativity idk why some ppl are even Knick fans man. I swear some would rather us lose so they could complain rather then us win.

If ppl didn't support the team, they wouldn't waste their time criticizing. You're allowed to complain about the shortfalls of your team and still be a fan.

Or do we have to forever defend every single thing they do?

You don't need.to find the negative in everything either. That isn't love. That is just coping with reality.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

You don't have create a false reality to combat my point. Show me all these ppl who find a negative in EVERYTHING.

[Guano]

It's definitely a problem. My point was moreso that it doesn't diminish the impact of the corner shooter, both as an output and as a space (and efficiency) enhancer.

Towns is one of the best shooters in the NBA, is 7-feet tall, and can shoot from the logo. I may not be as harsh on Thibs as you are, but this team's primary (secondary at worst) tactical goal should be to generate threes for KAT. Coming off screens, pick-and-roll, catch and shoot, the whole thing. Thibs has an Arri Alexa in his hands but his lighting sucks and his framing is basic af.

I can't find any data on KAT, but Kristaps average three point shot is 27 feet, which is just how they've been able to extend the floor. It doesn't diminish, but the corner three for the Celtics is secondary to the wing threes, because they get you to guard further out if they're generating wing, so the middle is open as well. The corner three is still important, but it doesn't break team defense like it did a decade ago.

We fundamentally agree though, I'm not diminishing the corner three, just that the elites hunt the wing three more now.


We used to have such classic duels, debating like gentlemen, without the need for extreme hyperbole unless it was me describing the outfit you wore to fashion week....which was most likely Ostrich feather jeans by Rick Owens, and a 1 of 1 Silk shirt made by a tibetan man you met in Sri Lanka.

NoDope x Chanel

Fixed for accuracy

[3toheadmelo]

What’s the end game though? KAT is averaging 24 ppg and he’s never averaged more than 26 one year as the 1st option. Hes having one of his best seasons in terms of efficiency. Even if he took more 3s, he’s not just going to be scoring more points all of a sudden. That’s not how it works. Just like how the Knicks are still 9th in the league in scoring 116 ppg and despite the Celtics taking all time record in 3s they are still 8th in the league in scoring with 116.4 barely ahead of the Knicks.

By the way I’m not against us shooting more 3s but I also like to see a more balanced attack and not just chucking up 3s to get them up. I do think having another guy who can shoot to replace Hart would definitely benefit the team.

I'm confused cause i thought his game against Boston was the most dominant (offensively) he's played against contenders all season long. He should absolutely be bullying guys like Tatum and smaller players on the block instead of chucking from 3 all game. I'm not sure why people want him to jack up 3's so much. That's what he did in the WCF and he was putting up historic bricks in that series and it was the main reason why they lost to Dallas.

[spree2kawhi]

What’s the end game though? KAT is averaging 24 ppg and he’s never averaged more than 26 one year as the 1st option. Hes having one of his best seasons in terms of efficiency. Even if he took more 3s, he’s not just going to be scoring more points all of a sudden. That’s not how it works. Just like how the Knicks are still 9th in the league in scoring 116 ppg and despite the Celtics taking all time record in 3s they are still 8th in the league in scoring with 116.4 barely ahead of the Knicks.

By the way I’m not against us shooting more 3s but I also like to see a more balanced attack and not just chucking up 3s to get them up. I do think having another guy who can shoot to replace Hart would definitely benefit the team.

I'm confused cause i thought his game against Boston was the most dominant (offensively) he's played against contenders all season long. He should absolutely be bullying guys like Tatum and smaller players on the block instead of chucking from 3 all game. I'm not sure why people want him to jack up 3's so much. That's what he did in the WCF and he was putting up historic bricks in that series and it was the main reason why they lost to Dallas.

He’s an incredible offensive player who simply happens to use his full repertoire. Some of that is not even covered by stats, like making simple passes early in the offense without any hesitation, the ability to always look for and see backdoor cuts and never dribble into trouble. He is very quick on his drives, too.

I’d also love to see him average 30 ppg to shut posters up even more, but that’s short-sighted. He is a team player first and foremost and that’s probably what’s most valuable about this guy.

[HopelessKnick]

They talk about how you cant win in the playoffs with KAT at center 12:50. "his defensive deficiencies gives up the two most efficient shots in basketball, open three pointers and shots at the basket..."

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Unfortunately I tend to agree, or put differently--it will be a major challenge. This is what I said a couple weeks back--for us to beat the elite teams with KAT, he needs to be scoring an efficient 30-40 points against them. Otherwise he won't be a net positive for us in those matchups. His defensive deficiencies just weigh to heavy. You saw how it could be possible in that first half against Boston. If he can brings that type of aggressiveness regularly then you may be able to work around his deficiencies.

KAT has put up 20/10 in 6 playoff series in his career. If the Knicks want to challenge for a title with him here, he needs to be able to increase that to like 30/12 type of numbers on efficient shooting. I don't know if he has that type of production against elite defense in him. We'll know much more in the upcoming weeks.

This is early and the team is likely going to be back next season but I feel the most rational and prudent way going forward is to trade KAT in a deal for 2 quality players. From my personal basketball playing experience and from watching the NBA for over 30 years now, balance is one of the most important things. One completely unrealistic thought I mentioned in the trade thread: If you traded KAT for say Myles Turner and Nesmith --that trade looks kind of unsexy at first glance but I believe the Knicks would be better after it. If you can get 2 impactful 2-way players in a trade for KAT you have to consider it.

[3toheadmelo]

They talk about how you cant win in the playoffs with KAT at center 12:50. "his defensive deficiencies gives up the two most efficient shots in basketball, open three pointers and shots at the basket..."

Watch on YouTube

That’s why the Timberwolves gave up a premium for Gobert. And then they ultimately got rid of KAT. That’s the same guy who built the championship nuggets. So it’s pretty telling.