Tank World Order (XIV) Here we go, The Final Stretch of the 2025 Tank Season!!!

[Duffman100]

Another tanking discussion lol

I mean, it is the Tank thread.

[YogurtProducer]

Calvin Booth won a championship with Denver 2 years ago and he's fired already. Using a previous championship as justification to resist change has major risk profile in your decision-making.

Calvin Booth inheritted a team with Jokic, MPJ, and Murrary on it who just won 54 games, who won a title as the best 3 players just a couple years later. Little different situation there my guy.

[YogurtProducer]

There is really no reason to discuss tanking with anyone who won't admit the PG13/Kawhi situation is the main catalyst for OKC's success and that it is not an option that any franchise can realistically try to mimick.

Sorry, but a team of JDub, Chet, and Giddey is not that exciting of a core. SGA legitimately adds so much to that team, and OKC lucked into him.

[PushDaRock]

So you are envious because of all the draft picks they have to play with. That explains everything.

All those lovely mystery boxes that may or may never be actual basketball players or OKC Thunder players for that matter.

This isn't a dick measuring competition. Just because they have all these picks still doesn't make them a model for an organization to follow.

Having lots of picks and sucking for multiple years does not guarantee victory. It just doesn't.

And as it has been said by myself and others many many many many times over...the Thunder aren't good because they have lots of draft picks.

Thunder are good primarily because the Clippers **** up.

If the Clippers don't give the Thunder everything...they are just another treadmill team with Russ and PG. And without a PG trade...them tanking on their own to get Chet and Giddey...well that just isn't the same.

SGA and JDub are the 2 biggest reasons for OKC's success and they are a product of another team's draft picks and failures.

Exactly, and the SGA trade can’t even be compared to anything because a deal like that has never been done before. Ainge traded KG and Pierce for an incredible haul that got them Tatum and Brown. That was great GM’ing though because he could’ve just kept them.

With Presti, he was in the right place at the right time. If Kawhi doesn’t go to LAC, Presti likely goes into the year with a flawed core and gets bounced in the first round again. I really don’t think people realize just how insanely lucky Presti was there. The picks he’s acquired have netted him very little. It’s all been from the Clippers.

What also does not get mentioned ever is that massive haul Presti got from the Clippers, also probably benefitted from Masai's role in that trade. Kawhi specifically asked for PG, and even hinted he might consider resigning in Toronto if they acquired PG. I don't think Masai ever really had that in his plans, but I believe he played along with it enough (talked to OKC about potential deals), that the Clippers were probably forced to offer up more than they would have wanted, which could have included SGA.

I would think the main reason Masai played along with this leverage play by OKC, was just to screw the Clips, who spent the whole Raps Kawhi year, following him (sending management or scouts to his Raps games).

I know a lot of people will keep crapping on the Clippers for the deal but what they gave up was essentially for Kawhi + George, not just George alone. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the world at the time, it's understandable they did whatever was necessary to get him. OKC ended up getting value as if they traded an additional Superstar without even having him on the roster lol. It was the ultimate right place right time no brainer move for Presti.

[PushDaRock]

There is really no reason to discuss tanking with anyone who won't admit the PG13/Kawhi situation is the main catalyst for OKC's success and that it is not an option that any franchise can realistically try to mimick.

Sorry, but a team of JDub, Chet, and Giddey is not that exciting of a core. SGA legitimately adds so much to that team, and OKC lucked into him.

Replicating it means getting value back for a Superstar player that you don't even have on your roster for free lol

[Raps in 4]

Another tanking discussion lol

All these GM's operate different and have different strengths.

Presti is elite and built 2 seperate championship rosters. That's hard to do since many GM's cant even build one. He did some tanking, drafted well and made excellent trades along the way. I'd be shocked if they didn't pull it off in the next few yrs

It's even more impressive that he's doing all this in the NBA's smallest market. He's easily been the league's best executive of the past 18 years.

[YogurtProducer]

Exactly, and the SGA trade can’t even be compared to anything because a deal like that has never been done before. Ainge traded KG and Pierce for an incredible haul that got them Tatum and Brown. That was great GM’ing though because he could’ve just kept them.

With Presti, he was in the right place at the right time. If Kawhi doesn’t go to LAC, Presti likely goes into the year with a flawed core and gets bounced in the first round again. I really don’t think people realize just how insanely lucky Presti was there. The picks he’s acquired have netted him very little. It’s all been from the Clippers.

What also does not get mentioned ever is that massive haul Presti got from the Clippers, also probably benefitted from Masai's role in that trade. Kawhi specifically asked for PG, and even hinted he might consider resigning in Toronto if they acquired PG. I don't think Masai ever really had that in his plans, but I believe he played along with it enough (talked to OKC about potential deals), that the Clippers were probably forced to offer up more than they would have wanted, which could have included SGA.

I would think the main reason Masai played along with this leverage play by OKC, was just to screw the Clips, who spent the whole Raps Kawhi year, following him (sending management or scouts to his Raps games).

I know a lot of people will keep crapping on the Clippers for the deal but what they gave up was essentially for Kawhi + George, not just George alone. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the world at the time, it's understandable they did whatever was necessary to get him. OKC ended up getting value as if they traded an additional Superstar without even having him on the roster lol. It was the ultimate right place right time no brainer move for Presti.

Yeah and like good on Presti there, but it was the ultimate example of lucking into something. He had all the leverage to squeeze every ounce out of LAC, especially when it was clear TOR was not a likely option for PG and Kawhi.

But lets not forget that in the 3 seasons prior that OKC team won 47/48/49 games and lost in the first round each year, and then the first year with SGA they won 44 games playing a Gallo/CP3/Schroder core big minutes to lose in the 1st round again.

They were the ultimate treadmill team who got absolutely bailed out with the PG13 situation. For some reason that gets ignored, and then Masai gets slammed for doing the same thing with Siakam. Weird (or it isn't, if you see the posters making these arguements)

[PushDaRock]

What also does not get mentioned ever is that massive haul Presti got from the Clippers, also probably benefitted from Masai's role in that trade. Kawhi specifically asked for PG, and even hinted he might consider resigning in Toronto if they acquired PG. I don't think Masai ever really had that in his plans, but I believe he played along with it enough (talked to OKC about potential deals), that the Clippers were probably forced to offer up more than they would have wanted, which could have included SGA.

I would think the main reason Masai played along with this leverage play by OKC, was just to screw the Clips, who spent the whole Raps Kawhi year, following him (sending management or scouts to his Raps games).

I know a lot of people will keep crapping on the Clippers for the deal but what they gave up was essentially for Kawhi + George, not just George alone. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the world at the time, it's understandable they did whatever was necessary to get him. OKC ended up getting value as if they traded an additional Superstar without even having him on the roster lol. It was the ultimate right place right time no brainer move for Presti.

Yeah and like good on Presti there, but it was the ultimate example of lucking into something. He had all the leverage to squeeze every ounce out of LAC, especially when it was clear TOR was not a likely option for PG and Kawhi.

But lets not forget that in the 3 seasons prior that OKC team won 47/48/49 games and lost in the first round each year, and then the first year with SGA they won 44 games playing a Gallo/CP3/Schroder core big minutes to lose in the 1st round again.

They were the ultimate treadmill team who got absolutely bailed out with the PG13 situation. For some reason that gets ignored, and then Masai gets slammed for doing the same thing with Siakam. Weird (or it isn't, if you see the posters making these arguements)

Question really is what would Presti have done without Kawhi orchestrating what he did.

[wegotthabeet]

SGA was acquired in the Paul George deal that netted them a huge draft haul as well. It only happened because Kawhi wanted to go to the Clippers with the condition that George was his running mate.

So clearly, Presti didn’t take a gamble. Lol. A gamble would be acquiring Kawhi for us. If we didn’t win and lost Kawhi then we unloaded good assets for a rental player.

Presti did not draft a superstar. Chet and Jdubs are good but not superstar material. Presti is extremely fortunate because he’s made some bad moves. Trading Sengun, drafting Dieng and Giddey. Without SGA they are a middling team. The saying it’s better to be lucky than good applies to Presti here.

Well he got an MVP .....A decade of Clippers draft picks, JDub All from Playoff P whos now a shell of himself....They still are the best team in the league all while having draft picks to remain the best team in the league....If this was Masai who made sim moves we would all be calling him the GOAT Gm ever....The hate is unreal lol....

You can say "They would be here or there" But facts are they are in a way better position than us...And good gming plays a part in that....Also getting lucky plays a part....Just like Masai was lucky Kawai trade fell into our lapse with Masai not having to do much but say yes to the deal....

Nope...not hating at all. I like how Presti has rebuilt the Thunder. He isn't perfect as outlined above. I think OKC wins a championship in the SGA era. That would put OKC on par with Toronto finally.

But our front office has done some work as well in the last decade to put together a championship team and we have actually won a championship unlike OKC. Yes I think Masai will even admit that for 2 years he wanted to compete but really we should have sold on Pascal, OG, etc. But with what we did with 1 late first round pick, Jalen McDaniels and a bunch of 2nd round picks....man...getting 3 young and dependable rookies who all figure to be rotation player at minimum...give Masai credit.

Like I said...there are many ways to build a contender. Just because Masai doesn't want to be a perennial tanking team like Charlotte, New Orleans or Utah doesn't make his approach wrong.

It's interesting to me to compare Presti & Masai. Both lost top 5 superstars for nothing. Both tried to compete for years afterwards since their teams were still decent until finally rebuilding years later.

2016 - Presti loses Durant, continues building around Westbrook. Rebuild truly begins in the summer of 2019.

2019 - Masai loses Leonard, continues building around Siakam. Rebuild truly begins mid season 2023-2024.

They build teams the same way, only rebuilding when their hands are forced. Neither tore it down to the studs.

OKC tanked for two years and got Caruso + Holmgren. Toronto tanked for two years and got Pöltl + whoever they draft in 2025.

Their methods of building and their outcomes aren't too dissimilar. The difference is SGA just blew up in a way that exceeded even the best projections. Scottie has next year to show what he is. If he can make a massive leap that changes the trajectory of this franchise. If he stays at roughly a top 50 level player than the ceiling is lowered for team.

Presti started his rebuild a year and a half earlier, but it's only because the PG trade opportunity that presented itself. Otherwise he doubles down on Westbrook + PG for at least one more year.

[Clutch0z24]

Well he got an MVP .....A decade of Clippers draft picks, JDub All from Playoff P whos now a shell of himself....They still are the best team in the league all while having draft picks to remain the best team in the league....If this was Masai who made sim moves we would all be calling him the GOAT Gm ever....The hate is unreal lol....

You can say "They would be here or there" But facts are they are in a way better position than us...And good gming plays a part in that....Also getting lucky plays a part....Just like Masai was lucky Kawai trade fell into our lapse with Masai not having to do much but say yes to the deal....

Nope...not hating at all. I like how Presti has rebuilt the Thunder. He isn't perfect as outlined above. I think OKC wins a championship in the SGA era. That would put OKC on par with Toronto finally.

But our front office has done some work as well in the last decade to put together a championship team and we have actually won a championship unlike OKC. Yes I think Masai will even admit that for 2 years he wanted to compete but really we should have sold on Pascal, OG, etc. But with what we did with 1 late first round pick, Jalen McDaniels and a bunch of 2nd round picks....man...getting 3 young and dependable rookies who all figure to be rotation player at minimum...give Masai credit.

Like I said...there are many ways to build a contender. Just because Masai doesn't want to be a perennial tanking team like Charlotte, New Orleans or Utah doesn't make his approach wrong.

It's interesting to me to compare Presti & Masai. Both lost top 5 superstars for nothing. Both tried to compete for years afterwards since their teams were still decent until finally rebuilding years later.

2016 - Presti loses Durant, continues building around Westbrook. Rebuild truly begins in the summer of 2019.

2019 - Masai loses Leonard, continues building around Siakam. Rebuild truly begins mid season 2023-2024.

They build teams the same way, only rebuilding when their hands are forced. Neither tore it down to the studs.

OKC tanked for two years and got Caruso + Holmgren. Toronto tanked for two years and got Pöltl + whoever they draft in 2025.

Their methods of building and their outcomes aren't too dissimilar. The difference is SGA just blew up in a way that exceeded even the best projections. Scottie has next year to show what he is. If he can make a massive leap that changes the trajectory of this franchise. If he stays at roughly a top 50 level player than the ceiling is lowered for team.

Yep exactly ....They are both very sim and both have lucked into their best players Via trade....I just find it funny when posters Hate on or discredit Sam for this and say "He just got lucky" While on the same hand saying Masai is the best GM in the NBA and the Kawhi trade was all him and his asset building hes done...

Both are good GMs and both accomplished alot....Just Sams team will prolly outlast Masai team as in them being a contender for many years while having their players under contract for longer....We have the title they do not....

But i find a few posters here give Sam Unwarranted hate when he ever gets brought up on this board....When he obviously is on the same level as Masai as a GM...

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=TorontoRaptors

[deck]

Another tanking discussion lol

All these GM's operate different and have different strengths.

Presti is elite and built 2 seperate championship rosters. That's hard to do since many GM's cant even build one. He did some tanking, drafted well and made excellent trades along the way. I'd be shocked if they didn't pull it off in the next few yrs

It's even more impressive that he's doing all this in the NBA's smallest market. He's easily been the league's best executive of the past 18 years.

This is pretty clearly not true. Presti is a great GM to be sure, but he hasn't really won anything of note in those 18 years.

Bob Myers in a shorter time frame has 4 NBA Championships, 6 Western Conference Championships, a 65% regular season winning percentage, and a 67% playoff winning percentage.

Presti by comparison has 1 Western Conference Championship, a 56% regular season winning percentage, and a 50% playoff winning percentage.

Now Myers was of course gifted Curry, but he did have the foresight to trade trade Monte, and built the team around Curry that had all of that success.

[mdenny]

There is really no reason to discuss tanking with anyone who won't admit the PG13/Kawhi situation is the main catalyst for OKC's success and that it is not an option that any franchise can realistically try to mimick.

Sorry, but a team of JDub, Chet, and Giddey is not that exciting of a core. SGA legitimately adds so much to that team, and OKC lucked into him.

JDub wasn't even a top 10 pick and Giddey was what? 7th I think? Ain't ppl saying that getting the 7th pick is a "failed" tank?

I could see flagg having a similar career trajectory to blake griffin. And griffin had a great career. But I bet there's another player in the draft who has a better career.

It'd be interesting to see how often the #1 overall ends up being the best player of their draft. I bet it's less than 20% of the time. Possibly even less than 15%.

OKC has a total of one top 10 pick in their rotation.

I was pro-tank this year....but the hardcore ideological ones imagine that draft outcomes align perfectly with selection order. And it's so obviously wrong. There are 2 lotteries. The draft lottery and then the draft itself. You can win the lottery and then lose the draft. And you can lose the lottery and win the draft. You can also win both or lose bo

[mtcan]

Another tanking discussion lol

All these GM's operate different and have different strengths.

Presti is elite and built 2 seperate championship rosters. That's hard to do since many GM's cant even build one. He did some tanking, drafted well and made excellent trades along the way. I'd be shocked if they didn't pull it off in the next few yrs

Wait...am I missing something? He built 2 separate championship rosters without winning a single championship?

Let's not put the cart before the horse. Presti's good I will give you that...but I'll call him a championship caliber GM when he actually wins one.

[WuTang_CMB]

Another tanking discussion lol

All these GM's operate different and have different strengths.

Presti is elite and built 2 seperate championship rosters. That's hard to do since many GM's cant even build one. He did some tanking, drafted well and made excellent trades along the way. I'd be shocked if they didn't pull it off in the next few yrs

Wait...am I missing something? He built 2 separate championship rosters without winning a single championship?

Let's not put the cart before the horse. Presti's good I will give you that...but I'll call him a championship caliber GM when he actually wins one.

Sure let's use caliber. I thought that would be understood lol. Presti's not just good, he's elite. As is Masai.. and both have different philosophies of building a roster. In the end, you build a team good enough to compete for a title - a true contender, which is what he's done multiple times. To get it over the hump you still need a lot of luck on your side.

[Los_29]

What also does not get mentioned ever is that massive haul Presti got from the Clippers, also probably benefitted from Masai's role in that trade. Kawhi specifically asked for PG, and even hinted he might consider resigning in Toronto if they acquired PG. I don't think Masai ever really had that in his plans, but I believe he played along with it enough (talked to OKC about potential deals), that the Clippers were probably forced to offer up more than they would have wanted, which could have included SGA.

I would think the main reason Masai played along with this leverage play by OKC, was just to screw the Clips, who spent the whole Raps Kawhi year, following him (sending management or scouts to his Raps games).

I know a lot of people will keep crapping on the Clippers for the deal but what they gave up was essentially for Kawhi + George, not just George alone. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the world at the time, it's understandable they did whatever was necessary to get him. OKC ended up getting value as if they traded an additional Superstar without even having him on the roster lol. It was the ultimate right place right time no brainer move for Presti.

Yeah and like good on Presti there, but it was the ultimate example of lucking into something. He had all the leverage to squeeze every ounce out of LAC, especially when it was clear TOR was not a likely option for PG and Kawhi.

But lets not forget that in the 3 seasons prior that OKC team won 47/48/49 games and lost in the first round each year, and then the first year with SGA they won 44 games playing a Gallo/CP3/Schroder core big minutes to lose in the 1st round again.

They were the ultimate treadmill team who got absolutely bailed out with the PG13 situation. For some reason that gets ignored, and then Masai gets slammed for doing the same thing with Siakam. Weird (or it isn't, if you see the posters making these arguements)

Yeah and it’s even more shocking he ran with Westbrook as his 1st option for so long despite having so many limitations. Masai tanked for Scottie and paired him with three players that are doing very well on their new teams. There was at least some plan in place there.

I don’t know if we will ever see a George type deal again. That’s how rare it is. What a lucky, lucky man Presti is. Chet/Giddey core doesn’t excite me.

[NotMyKawhi]

I know a lot of people will keep crapping on the Clippers for the deal but what they gave up was essentially for Kawhi + George, not just George alone. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the world at the time, it's understandable they did whatever was necessary to get him. OKC ended up getting value as if they traded an additional Superstar without even having him on the roster lol. It was the ultimate right place right time no brainer move for Presti.

Yeah and like good on Presti there, but it was the ultimate example of lucking into something. He had all the leverage to squeeze every ounce out of LAC, especially when it was clear TOR was not a likely option for PG and Kawhi.

But lets not forget that in the 3 seasons prior that OKC team won 47/48/49 games and lost in the first round each year, and then the first year with SGA they won 44 games playing a Gallo/CP3/Schroder core big minutes to lose in the 1st round again.

They were the ultimate treadmill team who got absolutely bailed out with the PG13 situation. For some reason that gets ignored, and then Masai gets slammed for doing the same thing with Siakam. Weird (or it isn't, if you see the posters making these arguements)

Yeah and it’s even more shocking he ran with Westbrook as his 1st option for so long despite having so many limitations. Masai tanked for Scottie and paired him with three players that are doing very well on their new teams. There was at least some plan in place there.

I don’t know if we will ever see a George type deal again. That’s how rare it is. What a lucky, lucky man Presti is. Chet/Giddey core doesn’t excite me.

He did turn russ into multiple picks bc of it, took on Chris Paul, who then lead them to the playoffs while russ went downhill.

And then traded Paul for picks

[mdenny]

There is really no reason to discuss tanking with anyone who won't admit the PG13/Kawhi situation is the main catalyst for OKC's success and that it is not an option that any franchise can realistically try to mimick.

Sorry, but a team of JDub, Chet, and Giddey is not that exciting of a core. SGA legitimately adds so much to that team, and OKC lucked into him.

JDub wasn't even a top 10 pick and Giddey was what? 7th I think? Ain't ppl saying that getting the 7th pick is a "failed" tank?

I could see flagg having a similar career trajectory to blake griffin. And griffin had a great career. But I bet there's another player in the draft who has a better career.

It'd be interesting to see how often the #1 overall ends up being the best player of their draft. I bet it's less than 20% of the time. Possibly even less than 15%.

OKC has a total of one top 10 pick in their rotation.

I was pro-tank this year....but the hardcore ideological ones imagine that draft outcomes align perfectly with selection order. And it's so obviously wrong. There are 2 lotteries. The draft lottery and then the draft itself. You can win the lottery and then lose the draft. And you can lose the lottery and win the draft. You can also win both or lose bo

I went and checked this out. Between 2000 and 2020.....the first overall was the best player of their draft 19% of the time: Yao, lebron, Dwight Howard, and Ant. So only 4 between 2000 and 2020.

I couldn't decide between AD and Dame from the 2005 class but gave that one to Dame.

Ppl talk themselves into a false sense of certainty every year.

There is NO WAY of knowing whether there is an SGA or a Giannis or a Jokic or a kawhi in this draft that none of the draft media ppl have in their top 10.

I just laugh when ppl say "this draft is 4 deep" or whatever.

[Raps in 4]

Another tanking discussion lol

All these GM's operate different and have different strengths.

Presti is elite and built 2 seperate championship rosters. That's hard to do since many GM's cant even build one. He did some tanking, drafted well and made excellent trades along the way. I'd be shocked if they didn't pull it off in the next few yrs

It's even more impressive that he's doing all this in the NBA's smallest market. He's easily been the league's best executive of the past 18 years.

This is pretty clearly not true. Presti is a great GM to be sure, but he hasn't really won anything of note in those 18 years.

Bob Myers in a shorter time frame has 4 NBA Championships, 6 Western Conference Championships, a 65% regular season winning percentage, and a 67% playoff winning percentage.

Presti by comparison has 1 Western Conference Championship, a 56% regular season winning percentage, and a 50% playoff winning percentage.

Now Myers was of course gifted Curry, but he did have the foresight to trade trade Monte, and built the team around Curry that had all of that success.

Myers inherited a team with Steph and Klay already on the roster. His biggest achievement was drafting Draymond and signing a desperate KD as a FA.

If anything, the Warriors could have won a lot more titles if he didn't waste all their lottery picks on busts (he drafted Wiseman, Kuminga, and Moody with their #2, #7, and #14 picks). Aside from Draymond, his draft record is abysmal. Those picks should have been consolidated into a trade for a player that could have extended their competitive window.

Presti has been one of the best drafting GMs in the NBA over the past two decades. The only reason the Thunder don't have multiple titles is because their owners are cheap (OKC is a tiny market) and didn't want to pay Harden when he was up for his rookie extension. The guy literally drafted three future MVPs in three straight drafts.

[AbC?]

Masai built a legitimate contender a grand total of 1 time in his tenure as GM with the Raptors and Nuggets. He just happened to win that one year, credit to him, and like with any championship luck played a factor.

Presti has built championship caliber teams - the KD teams had a 6 year window where they were legitimate contenders. This current core also looks like they have a long window of contending. We will see if luck swings their way this time around.

Presti is pretty clearly one of the best GMs. The dismissal of this current team as just Shai is so stupid. I love how Paul George seemingly just disappears as a trade piece in these hypothetical “OKC without Shai” scenarios