2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[DrModesty]

At this point shouldn't there be a discussion on the merits of Jokic vs Giannis?

Both teams have disappointing but solid team records. Both have similar box scores. Jokic has a playmaking advantage and Giannis has a defensive advantage. Jokic supporting cast clearly > Giannis, but Jokic conference also > Giannis. Jokic's coach was fired (Many held this against Giannis last year). Both have played a similar number of games (66/80 Giannis, 68/80 Jokic). Giannis's important teammates have missed more games. Giannis won the in season tournament and NBA cup MVP.

Jokic offensive is very evident in the impact stats.
Giannis supposed defensive edge is nowhere to be seen in the impact stats.
Giannis is having elite offensive impact, still worse than Jokic, defensively, he's having no impact at all.

From what I have watched this year, Giannis hasn't been the defender of the past but also neither has Jokic. Giannis has still looked a much superior defender to Jokic this year and a clear plus while Jokic has been a bit of a minus.

I am also generally skeptical of advanced stats capability to measure defense (Especially DBPM and D-W/S), but they do show Giannis as still a clearly positive defender.

It feels to me that Jokic's case relies a ton on advanced metrics which tend to be flawed and given an outweighed importance.

[pepe1991]

Mo Williams over Jamal Murray

Jokic stans are ridiculous

Jokic would win 50 games max with the 09 Cavs roster. LeBron won 66. And honestly if you're trying to talk about any teammates LeBron had from 04-10 you've lost the plot. He had a worse supporting cast than Jokic has right now every single year. That's why he left in the first place.

Let's see what Lebron won without another top 10 player next to him.



Jokić can't even get teammate that would be top 10 player at his own position


Who ever said Williams over Murray? Fact is, Mo was all star, Jamal was literally never anything.

Lebron without Wade had one great playoff run. Lost finals with team where 2 out of 3 other best players on the floor were his own teammates.

But this isn't about Lebron. It's about fact that Jokić never had single actual star player anywhere near prime years, playing along side him. He simply didn't.
And despite all that, guy won a title as one of very, very,very few players in history that didn't have all star "sidekick" .

Or you think Jamal Murray is better than Wade?

[Mavrelous]

At this point shouldn't there be a discussion on the merits of Jokic vs Giannis?

Both teams have disappointing but solid team records. Both have similar box scores. Jokic has a playmaking advantage and Giannis has a defensive advantage. Jokic supporting cast clearly > Giannis, but Jokic conference also > Giannis. Jokic's coach was fired (Many held this against Giannis last year). Both have played a similar number of games (66/80 Giannis, 68/80 Jokic). Giannis's important teammates have missed more games. Giannis won the in season tournament and NBA cup MVP.

Jokic offensive is very evident in the impact stats.
Giannis supposed defensive edge is nowhere to be seen in the impact stats.
Giannis is having elite offensive impact, still worse than Jokic, defensively, he's having no impact at all.

From what I have watched this year, Giannis hasn't been the defender of the past but also neither has Jokic. Giannis has still looked a much superior defender to Jokic this year and a clear plus while Jokic has been a bit of a minus.

I am also generally skeptical of advanced stats capability to measure defense (Especially DBPM and D-W/S), but they do show Giannis as still a clearly positive defender.

It feels to me that Jokic's case relies a ton on advanced metrics which tend to be flawed and given an outweighed importance.

I'm talking about DRTG on/off, Bucks are the same team defensively with ot w/o Giannis and they aren't good at it either way.

[kazyv]

Read on Twitter

Best teammates Lebron had after 10 years in nba:

1) Wade -HOF
2) Bosh- all star
3) old Shaq- former MVP
4) older Jamison- former all star
5) Mo Williiams - all star
6) Illgauskas- all star


Jokić:
1) Murray- 0 times all star, 0 times anything
2) Paul Millsap- former all star
3) Porter jr ? Old man Westbrook, Nurkić? At one point 3rd best Nuggets player, in run to CF was Jeremy Grant.

Like... you can't even make those stuff up.

Nuggets failed Jokić at every turn post championship run, they even failed him before they won, guy is just that elite so he could carry mediocre roster to a title.

So Jokic just carry this dude who did as much as the legendary run of the 2022 Finals MVP?


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs, 20 Games
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg ,1.5 spg, 59 TS%

Stephen Curry in 2022 Playoffs, 22 Games
27.1 ppg, 5.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.3 spg, 60 TS%

hold your horses there. murray wasn't the #1 option and clearly didn't have the kind of run steph had. or would you apply your standard to kyrie in 16 too?

25.2, 4.7, 3, 1.7 on 57 TS%

did lebron just "carry" that legendary dude? (and to be clear, kyrie has even more of a claim than jamal, if we were to compare their finals performances)

[DrModesty]

Jokic offensive is very evident in the impact stats.
Giannis supposed defensive edge is nowhere to be seen in the impact stats.
Giannis is having elite offensive impact, still worse than Jokic, defensively, he's having no impact at all.

From what I have watched this year, Giannis hasn't been the defender of the past but also neither has Jokic. Giannis has still looked a much superior defender to Jokic this year and a clear plus while Jokic has been a bit of a minus.

I am also generally skeptical of advanced stats capability to measure defense (Especially DBPM and D-W/S), but they do show Giannis as still a clearly positive defender.

It feels to me that Jokic's case relies a ton on advanced metrics which tend to be flawed and given an outweighed importance.

I'm talking about DRTG on/off, Bucks are the same team defensively with ot w/o Giannis and they aren't good at it either way.

So first of all, DRTG on/off also has Giannis as a positive (113.4 on 114.7 off).

Second, like other defensive metrics it still has faults which make it bad for basing conclusions on. For instance Dort has a negative DRTG on/off (109.0 on, 106.6 off) despite us seeing him lock down star players all year long and him being a DPOY candidate. Dyson Daniels has a negative DRTG on/off (116.8 vs 116.0) and he is even more heavily favored for DPOY. Draymonds is only a 0.9 improvement compared to Giannis' 1.3 and he is the DPOY favorite right now. The best DRTG on/off player on the Bucks with meaningful minutes is AJ Green. A poor defending shooting specialist who comes off the bench.

Third, the Bucks are a solid defensive team. 12th in the league. Not good, but still very solid. There a very few good defenders on the team. Every other starter on the team has a worse DRTG on/off, and in the cases of Dame and Taurean Prince who often share the court with Giannis, they are steeply negative.

It is a noisy stat that shouldn't be given too much importance (like most stats)

[RB34]

Wins no longer matter when arguing the 3rd spot.

[Mavrelous]

From what I have watched this year, Giannis hasn't been the defender of the past but also neither has Jokic. Giannis has still looked a much superior defender to Jokic this year and a clear plus while Jokic has been a bit of a minus.

I am also generally skeptical of advanced stats capability to measure defense (Especially DBPM and D-W/S), but they do show Giannis as still a clearly positive defender.

It feels to me that Jokic's case relies a ton on advanced metrics which tend to be flawed and given an outweighed importance.

I'm talking about DRTG on/off, Bucks are the same team defensively with ot w/o Giannis and they aren't good at it either way.

So first of all, DRTG on/off also has Giannis as a positive (113.4 on 114.7 off).

Second, like other defensive metrics it still has faults which make it bad for basing conclusions on. For instance Dort has a negative DRTG on/off (109.0 on, 106.6 off) despite us seeing him lock down star players all year long and him being a DPOY candidate. Dyson Daniels has a negative DRTG on/off (116.8 vs 116.0) and he is even more heavily favored for DPOY. Draymonds is only a 0.9 improvement compared to Giannis' 1.3 and he is the DPOY favorite right now. The best DRTG on/off player on the Bucks with meaningful minutes is AJ Green. A poor defending shooting specialist who comes off the bench.

Third, the Bucks are a solid defensive team. 12th in the league. Not good, but still very solid. There a very few good defenders on the team. Every other starter on the team has a worse DRTG on/off, and in the cases of Dame and Taurean Prince who often share the court with Giannis, they are steeply negative.

Yes, defense is slightly better, but not significant, but prime dedensive Giannis was a much more impactful defender.
If I want to differentiate players based on defense I want to see impact there, there isn't.
Jokic is the besy floor and cieling offensive raiser in history, I would want better argument than Giannis is perceived as better defender.

[One Last Shot]

Best teammates Lebron had after 10 years in nba:

1) Wade -HOF
2) Bosh- all star
3) old Shaq- former MVP
4) older Jamison- former all star
5) Mo Williiams - all star
6) Illgauskas- all star


Jokić:
1) Murray- 0 times all star, 0 times anything
2) Paul Millsap- former all star
3) Porter jr ? Old man Westbrook, Nurkić? At one point 3rd best Nuggets player, in run to CF was Jeremy Grant.

Like... you can't even make those stuff up.

Nuggets failed Jokić at every turn post championship run, they even failed him before they won, guy is just that elite so he could carry mediocre roster to a title.

So Jokic just carry this dude who did as much as the legendary run of the 2022 Finals MVP?


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs, 20 Games
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg ,1.5 spg, 59 TS%

Stephen Curry in 2022 Playoffs, 22 Games
27.1 ppg, 5.9 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.3 spg, 60 TS%

hold your horses there. murray wasn't the #1 option and clearly didn't have the kind of run steph had. or would you apply your standard to kyrie in 16 too?

25.2, 4.7, 3, 1.7 on 57 TS%

did lebron just "carry" that legendary dude? (and to be clear, kyrie has even more of a claim than jamal, if we were to compare their finals performances)

When did I say LeBron carry that legendary dude? The point is Jokic needed Jamal to win that NBA title, as a matter of fact Jokic never won a single playoffs game in the 2nd Rd of playoffs without Murray. In WCF against the Lakers which I consider their most difficult series that almost every game went down to the wire eventhough it's a sweep, Murray averaged 32.5 ppg in 65.1 TS%. He's their designated closer that he averaged 10.8 ppg in 87.4 TS% in the 4th quarter. Do you also think Jokic just carry that dude?

[RRR3]

Mo Williams over Jamal Murray

Jokic stans are ridiculous

Jokic would win 50 games max with the 09 Cavs roster. LeBron won 66. And honestly if you're trying to talk about any teammates LeBron had from 04-10 you've lost the plot. He had a worse supporting cast than Jokic has right now every single year. That's why he left in the first place.

Let's see what Lebron won without another top 10 player next to him.



Jokić can't even get teammate that would be top 10 player at his own position


Who ever said Williams over Murray? Fact is, Mo was all star, Jamal was literally never anything.

Lebron without Wade had one great playoff run. Lost finals with team where 2 out of 3 other best players on the floor were his own teammates.

But this isn't about Lebron. It's about fact that Jokić never had single actual star player anywhere near prime years, playing along side him. He simply didn't.
And despite all that, guy won a title as one of very, very,very few players in history that didn't have all star "sidekick" .

Or you think Jamal Murray is better than Wade?

LeBron won a ring with his 2nd option averaging 15.9 PPG on awful efficiency 2013. Jokic has never carried a team like that. Yes Jamal Murray in 23 playoffs was quite a bit better than Wade in the 13 playoffs. 15.9 PPG on horrid efficiency is not good help. You guys would be calling Wade the worst player in the league if he did that with Jokic.

Jamal Murray not being an all-star is semantics because he played like an all-star when they won so that's really dubious reasoning.


Also are you seriously claiming LeBron had a top 10 teammate in 2016? WHO? Kyrie? Kevin Love?


Please.

[RRR3]

I've been told I'm overrreacting with the absurd claims about Jokic and here we have someone trying to argue he's better than LeBron James

[DrModesty]

I'm talking about DRTG on/off, Bucks are the same team defensively with ot w/o Giannis and they aren't good at it either way.

So first of all, DRTG on/off also has Giannis as a positive (113.4 on 114.7 off).

Second, like other defensive metrics it still has faults which make it bad for basing conclusions on. For instance Dort has a negative DRTG on/off (109.0 on, 106.6 off) despite us seeing him lock down star players all year long and him being a DPOY candidate. Dyson Daniels has a negative DRTG on/off (116.8 vs 116.0) and he is even more heavily favored for DPOY. Draymonds is only a 0.9 improvement compared to Giannis' 1.3 and he is the DPOY favorite right now. The best DRTG on/off player on the Bucks with meaningful minutes is AJ Green. A poor defending shooting specialist who comes off the bench.

Third, the Bucks are a solid defensive team. 12th in the league. Not good, but still very solid. There a very few good defenders on the team. Every other starter on the team has a worse DRTG on/off, and in the cases of Dame and Taurean Prince who often share the court with Giannis, they are steeply negative.

Yes, defense is slightly better, but not significant, but prime dedensive Giannis was a much more impactful defender.
If I want to differentiate players based on defense I want to see impact there, there isn't.
Jokic is the besy floor and cieling offensive raiser in history, I would want better argument than Giannis is perceived as better defender.

Your post is a bit poorly written but I will try and address it anyway.

Watch the games and you will see the relative impact. Giannis looks like he is helping the defense (though definitely not an All Defense level guy this year) and Jokic looks like he is hurting it while still littering games with useful defensive plays. Giannis is a clearly better defender than Jokic. For everything that Giannis has lost on defense this year, Jokic has too.

Do we have proof that Jokic is the best offensive ceiling raiser ever? What makes us certain he is better at raising offensive ceilings compared to Luka as one example. How about Steve Nash? Or Steph? Also, why does being (at most arguably) the best offensive ceiling raiser ever, conclusively make you a better MVP candidate than Giannis for this season? It isn't like this season is the best offensive ceiling raising season of all time. For example, it certainly isn't better than Luka's 2019/20 season where he led the Mavericks to a historic offense that was by far first in the league with lesser offensive talent than this Denver team has.

I tend to agree with you that Jokic is among the best floor raisers of all time, particularly offensively. I take the 2021/22 season as distinct proof of this. It was a titanic carry job similar in stature to Westbrooks 2016/17 though different in nature. Again, what does being an incredible offensive floor raiser have to do with winning this seasons MVP? After all, Giannis has a worse supporting cast. Their records are very similar. Be it floor or ceiling the circumstances look very similar to me for this regular season.

[Mavrelous]

Your post is a bit poorly written but I will try and address it anyway.

Watch the games and you will see the relative impact. Giannis looks like he is helping the defense (though definitely not an All Defense level guy this year) and Jokic looks like he is hurting it while still littering games with useful defensive plays. Giannis is a clearly better defender than Jokic. For everything that Giannis has lost on defense this year, Jokic has too.

Writing on the phone can make the posts clunky, but I think I made the point clearly...
Watching the games makes the argument totally subjective, I prefer to use stats, and I am on the skeptic side of the on/off stat, but it's a good tool to use to support a claim.
Yes, Giannis is clearly the better defensive player, but there isn't much value on who is perceived as the better defensive player, the value is in what have you done for me lately.
There are some premises I base my argument on:
1. Despite it not being good by any measure, Denver is having a better season in a tougher conference than Milwaukee.
2. I don't see a big difference in supporting cast available between the 2 teams, while I have Gordon and Murray this year as a better pair than Dame/BroLo, adjusting for availability and health thoughout the season, I think it's in the same ball park.

Denver has 10.3 Net rating with Jokic on the floor, this is a great net rating, contender lever.
Denver has a staggering 127 ORTG with Jokic on the floor, this is a historical number, this is much, much better than the best offense of all time, on a very large sample size, no player in history approached this number on 2500 minutes+ sample in a season.

In 2021-2022 season, Denver had a terrible supporting cast, DEN still produced 119 ORTG with Jokic on the floor.

Do we have proof that Jokic is the best offensive ceiling raiser ever? What makes us certain he is better at raising offensive ceilings compared to Luka as one example. How about Steve Nash? Or Steph? Also, why does being (at most arguably) the best offensive ceiling raiser ever, conclusively make you a better MVP candidate than Giannis for this season? It isn't like this season is the best offensive ceiling raising season of all time. For example, it certainly isn't better than Luka's 2019/20 season where he led the Mavericks to a historic offense that was by far first in the league with lesser offensive talent than this Denver team has.

Proof for cross-era comparison is a strong word, I don't like to use it, each can have different taste and different preferences, to use a plyer you suggested, I had Luka as MVP last year, I didn't argue it because it does come down to subjective preferences, but in all cases the advanced stats should at least hint at the claim.
If one wants to claim Nash or Steph as better offensive ceiling raiser, I wouldn't argue, I would disagree, but there certainly is a case, I think we were robbed of seeing Nash full offensive potential because his ATG shooting ability wasn't fully utilized in PHX, but Jokic is in the select group that you can make that claim for, Giannis is nowhere near, he simply isn't the offensive force that Jokic is, and the stats are very clear about that.

I tend to agree with you that Jokic is among the best floor raisers of all time, particularly offensively. I take the 2021/22 season as distinct proof of this. It was a titanic carry job similar in stature to Westbrooks 2016/17 though different in nature. Again, what does being an incredible offensive floor raiser have to do with winning this seasons MVP? After all, Giannis has a worse supporting cast. Their records are very similar. Be it floor or ceiling the circumstances look very similar to me for this regular season.

Few pages ago I was accused of being a Jokic hater and unable to use my brain because I said he has no case for MVP this year, so he's not my pick for MVP, for head 2 head comparison vs Giannis, it is even more clear that Jokic has a better season than Giannis, than SGA having a better season than Jokic.

If your best statistical argument for Giannis is he is clearly the better defender, while being on the 12th best defense on the league and contributing 1.4 better defense on and off the floor, having 6 Net rating (very good, not great), and a great 120 ORTG, it's not a very good argument against a guy providing 127 ORTG on court (all time great) and 10+ Net rating (contender level), while leading his team to a better record in a tougher conference.

[pepe1991]

Mo Williams over Jamal Murray

Jokic stans are ridiculous

Jokic would win 50 games max with the 09 Cavs roster. LeBron won 66. And honestly if you're trying to talk about any teammates LeBron had from 04-10 you've lost the plot. He had a worse supporting cast than Jokic has right now every single year. That's why he left in the first place.

Let's see what Lebron won without another top 10 player next to him.



Jokić can't even get teammate that would be top 10 player at his own position


Who ever said Williams over Murray? Fact is, Mo was all star, Jamal was literally never anything.

Lebron without Wade had one great playoff run. Lost finals with team where 2 out of 3 other best players on the floor were his own teammates.

But this isn't about Lebron. It's about fact that Jokić never had single actual star player anywhere near prime years, playing along side him. He simply didn't.
And despite all that, guy won a title as one of very, very,very few players in history that didn't have all star "sidekick" .

Or you think Jamal Murray is better than Wade?

LeBron won a ring with his 2nd option averaging 15.9 PPG on awful efficiency 2013. Jokic has never carried a team like that. Yes Jamal Murray in 23 playoffs was quite a bit better than Wade in the 13 playoffs. 15.9 PPG on horrid efficiency is not good help. You guys would be calling Wade the worst player in the league if he did that with Jokic.

Jamal Murray not being an all-star is semantics because he played like an all-star when they won so that's really dubious reasoning.


Also are you seriously claiming LeBron had a top 10 teammate in 2016? WHO? Kyrie? Kevin Love?


Please.

Oh boy.

To reply on your second comment, people say you overreact because you argue things nobody said

But let's go through this crap.

LeBron won a ring with his 2nd option averaging 15.9 PPG on awful efficiency 2013. Jokic has never carried a team like that.

2011-12:
Wade averages 22-5-5 on 56% TS . 26 PER & 7,9 BPM.
Wade averages 23 ppg -5 rpg- 4,3 rpg. 52,35 TS, 22 PER, 5,3 BPM

Context of time
2011-12 Wade is
7th in scoring
4th in plus/minus
7th in net rating - higher than Lebron
17th in defensive rating in nba (18th was Bosh, Lebron 22)



You think his efficiency wasn't that high in playoffs? League's average TS that year was 52,6%, meaning his playoff efficiency was in line with league's average.

But let's not stop there during 2011-12 Wade was:
10th in MVP race
got DPOY vote
all star
All nba 3rd team

And in finals random 22-6-5 stat line.
Guy finished playoffs as 8th best scorer in playoffs.


2012-13
Wade averaged 21-5-5 + 2 steals - 57% TS , 4,4 BPM & 24 PER
Wade averaged 15,6 ppg , 4,6 RPG, 4,8 APG , 1,7 steals, 1 block, 50% TS, 3,0 BPM , 19 PER

Again context of time
9th in scoring in entire league
3rd in plus minus in entire league
6th in steals

In addition he was:
again 10th in MVP race
again selected to all star game
again all nba 3rd team


In actual finals, Wade averaged 20-4-4 & 50,5% TS.

Without any questions Wade was top 10 player in nba. No doubt, hands down.


And you really thought this is winning Murray argument, because you can't understand context of time and how league changed.

League's average in PPG in 2012- 2013 in playoffs :95,3
League's average in PPG in 2022-2023 in playoff : 109,6

Even biggest fool can understand that it is easier to score today.

Murray in 2023-24:
regular season : 21 ppg, 6,5 apg, 4,5 rpg, 57% TS, 4,1 BPM, 20,7 PER
playoffs : 26 ppg, 7,1 apg, 5,7 rpg ,58,6 % TS, 4,8 BPM, 21,6 PER

During regular season Murray was:
- 57th in scoring
- 28th in plus minus
- wasn't all star
- wasn't selected in any of all nba teams
- got less all star votes by players than Josh Giddey or Jose Alvarado ( goes to show you how little other players viewed him )


During playoffs, despite on surface higher numbers he still:
- just 12th in ppg
- 13th in apg
- averaged 21,4 ppg in finals on 55% TS ( in contract of 19,6 to Wade, who's team averaged 97 ppg in contrast of 21,4 ppg on 105 ppg by team). So even that argument is very shaky.


Again, Murray had brilliant playoff run. But that guy was never top 10 player, he never had season where he was top 10 player, he wasn't even that elite in finals as you think.
There is just confirmation bias that you have based on enhanced raw numbers compared to a league from 10-12 years ago and personal bias toward defending Lebron , as we already established in my opening replay, nobody even "attacked".

Wade entered 2012-13 as top 10 player, Wade exited 2012-13 as top 10 player.
Bosh entered 2012-13 as top 25 player. Bosh exited 2012-13 as top 25 player.

Adjusted google search to get real rating of Murray by established nba pages and this was common sense about Murray :
CBS Sports- ranked 39th
ESPN top 100-- ranked 50th
( Gordon 69th, Porter 72th)

So your whole argument is based on not finals, but before finals series where Murray stuffed stat sheet bit better, ignoring regular season, ignoring stat adjustment, ignoring defense, ignoring accolade and ignoring context of time?

Great, you do you. Now go make counter argument about something i didn't say

All this to say simple thing: over span of 4 years that Lebron had with prime- and exiting prime Wade is better than any teammate Jokić ever had.
For crying out loud, Wade won title without Lebron, before Lebron, with best teammate being old man Shaq. What's the argument here ? It would be equivalent of Jokić having "help " of Jaylen Brown/Tatum and i don't know, Siakam. That's what Lebron had in Wade and Bosh. 5 times in a row all star Bosh and guy who was at times top 5 player in the world.

[DrModesty]

Your post is a bit poorly written but I will try and address it anyway.

Watch the games and you will see the relative impact. Giannis looks like he is helping the defense (though definitely not an All Defense level guy this year) and Jokic looks like he is hurting it while still littering games with useful defensive plays. Giannis is a clearly better defender than Jokic. For everything that Giannis has lost on defense this year, Jokic has too.

Writing on the phone can make the posts clunky, but I think I made the point clearly...
Watching the games makes the argument totally subjective, I prefer to use stats, and I am on the skeptic side of the on/off stat, but it's a good tool to use to support a claim.
Yes, Giannis is clearly the better defensive player, but there isn't much value on who is perceived as the better defensive player, the value is in what have you done for me lately.
There are some premises I base my argument on:
1. Despite it not being good by any measure, Denver is having a better season in a tougher conference than Milwaukee.
2. I don't see a big difference in supporting cast available between the 2 teams, while I have Gordon and Murray this year as a better pair than Dame/BroLo, adjusting for availability and health thoughout the season, I think it's in the same ball park.

Denver has 10.3 Net rating with Jokic on the floor, this is a great net rating, contender lever.
Denver has a staggering 127 ORTG with Jokic on the floor, this is a historical number, this is much, much better than the best offense of all time, on a very large sample size, no player in history approached this number on 2500 minutes+ sample in a season.

In 2021-2022 season, Denver had a terrible supporting cast, DEN still produced 119 ORTG with Jokic on the floor.

Do we have proof that Jokic is the best offensive ceiling raiser ever? What makes us certain he is better at raising offensive ceilings compared to Luka as one example. How about Steve Nash? Or Steph? Also, why does being (at most arguably) the best offensive ceiling raiser ever, conclusively make you a better MVP candidate than Giannis for this season? It isn't like this season is the best offensive ceiling raising season of all time. For example, it certainly isn't better than Luka's 2019/20 season where he led the Mavericks to a historic offense that was by far first in the league with lesser offensive talent than this Denver team has.

Proof for cross-era comparison is a strong word, I don't like to use it, each can have different taste and different preferences, to use a plyer you suggested, I had Luka as MVP last year, I didn't argue it because it does come down to subjective preferences, but in all cases the advanced stats should at least hint at the claim.
If one wants to claim Nash or Steph as better offensive ceiling raiser, I wouldn't argue, I would disagree, but there certainly is a case, I think we were robbed of seeing Nash full offensive potential because his ATG shooting ability wasn't fully utilized in PHX, but Jokic is in the select group that you can make that claim for, Giannis is nowhere near, he simply isn't the offensive force that Jokic is, and the stats are very clear about that.

I tend to agree with you that Jokic is among the best floor raisers of all time, particularly offensively. I take the 2021/22 season as distinct proof of this. It was a titanic carry job similar in stature to Westbrooks 2016/17 though different in nature. Again, what does being an incredible offensive floor raiser have to do with winning this seasons MVP? After all, Giannis has a worse supporting cast. Their records are very similar. Be it floor or ceiling the circumstances look very similar to me for this regular season.

Few pages ago I was accused of being a Jokic hater and unable to use my brain because I said he has no case for MVP this year, so he's not my pick for MVP, for head 2 head comparison vs Giannis, it is even more clear that Jokic has a better season than Giannis, than SGA having a better season than Jokic.

If your best statistical argument for Giannis is he is clearly the better defender, while being on the 12th best defense on the league and contributing 1.4 better defense on and off the floor, having 6 Net rating (very good, not great), and a great 120 ORTG, it's not a very good argument against a guy providing 127 ORTG on court (all time great) and 10+ Net rating (contender level), while leading his team to a better record in a tougher conference.

The bit of your post I was unclear on to an extent was "Best floor and ceiling offensive raiser". Maybe you know another language with different grammatical rules and applied them here. It is no big deal either way and I think I interpreted it the way you intended.

I suspect we are fairly closely aligned in our general perceptions of things too. I also tend to use stats a lot when discussing and assessing basketball, but stats in basketball still miss a great deal of context so I also place a lot of significance on my eye test with stats as a way to calibrate, compliment and challenge my eye test. I did not see much of your eye test in your answer and the stat brought up is flawed as I am sure you know. It is no big deal.

As far as my asking for proof, your statement was that Jokic IS the best floor and ceiling offensive raiser ever which is a very strong statement to present as fact. I will say that I don't think he is those things (best all time) this year because I think he himself has done better in these things in other years and it is possible other players have been too. If I dedicated the time to research and come up with my own answer to the best all time offensive floor and ceiling raiser, I could possibly decide it is Jokic. I think very highly of Jokic and his style of play so I would probably be biased towards him a little bit. It is not in any way a serious discussion, so there is no actual burden for proof or need to go further in to it, especially as it doesn't actually relate to this years MVP.

As far as the rosters are concerned. I think Dame > Murray, but that Gordon > BroLo, MPJ > Kuzma/Middleton and Braun > Prince all by clear margins. I have the benches with a slight Bucks lean but nothing significant. So in the end I think that Denver has the better supporting cast. The individual on/off numbers of Jokic benefit from a significantly larger proportion of minutes played alongside his best players than Giannis this season (Jokic has this advantage over everyone in the broader MVP conversation).

It is also worth noting that I wasn't arguing that Giannis IS more deserving of MVP than Jokic. I actually still have Jokic ahead of Giannis. I was suggesting that the gap has narrowed between them enough that it should be revisited (instead of letting inert group think take hold). This thought was prompted by Giannis almost matching Jokic's 30/20/20 game with his own never before seen 35/17/20, Denver having lost a bunch of games, the gap in games played disappearing and that Denver newly risks the play-in.

One difference we have is that I think Giannis/Jokic is closer than SGA/Jokic for this years MVP. I am not saying that Jokic/SGA is not even close, but I will say it is not that close for me.

I feel for you on being called a Jokic hater too. There is little grace given when you either criticize aspects of his game or promote others in competition to him in online spaces. And I am saying this as someone who has Jokic as my favorite player who hasn't played for my team for the past 6 years.

[Mavrelous]

As far as my asking for proof, your statement was that Jokic IS the best floor and ceiling offensive raiser ever which is a very strong statement to present as fact. I will say that I don't think he is those things (best all time) this year because I think he himself has done better in these things in other years and it is possible other players have been too. If I dedicated the time to research and come up with my own answer to the best all time offensive floor and ceiling raiser, I could possibly decide it is Jokic. I think very highly of Jokic and his style of play so I would probably be biased towards him a little bit. It is not in any way a serious discussion, so there is no actual burden for proof or need to go further in to it, especially as it doesn't actually relate to this years MVP.

The argument for him being the best is his constant ability to have historical offenses next to good offensive supporting casts (126 over the last 3 years when Murray and MPJ were generally healthy and available), no one approaches this, and great offense next to terrible rosters like in 21, the on/off stats, the eye test, the volume stats all clearly show he is the driver behind this, and no one else.
If you are the leader of a historical offense, and you proved it with and without your 2 offensive side kicks, you are the best floor raiser and ceiling raiser IMO, you can argue Steph or Nash are better, it is certainly open to debate, but it is a tier that Jokic belongs to and Giannis is very far from being close to be considered in.

[Packbuckman]

The difference in Defense between Giannis and Jokic is bigger than people think looking at stats it’s the eye test and Giannis can raise his level of play to make that elite block to save a game which jokic is not capable of doing. Watch these playoffs with a healthy Giannis to understand what I am talking about.

[DrModesty]

As far as my asking for proof, your statement was that Jokic IS the best floor and ceiling offensive raiser ever which is a very strong statement to present as fact. I will say that I don't think he is those things (best all time) this year because I think he himself has done better in these things in other years and it is possible other players have been too. If I dedicated the time to research and come up with my own answer to the best all time offensive floor and ceiling raiser, I could possibly decide it is Jokic. I think very highly of Jokic and his style of play so I would probably be biased towards him a little bit. It is not in any way a serious discussion, so there is no actual burden for proof or need to go further in to it, especially as it doesn't actually relate to this years MVP.

The argument for him being the best is his constant ability to have historical offenses next to good offensive supporting casts (126 over the last 3 years when Murray and MPJ were generally healthy and available), no one approaches this, and great offense next to terrible rosters like in 21, the on/off stats, the eye test, the volume stats all clearly show he is the driver behind this, and no one else.
If you are the leader of a historical offense, and you proved it with and without your 2 offensive side kicks, you are the best floor raiser and ceiling raiser IMO, you can argue Steph or Nash are better, it is certainly open to debate, but it is a tier that Jokic belongs to and Giannis is very far from being close to be considered in.

It sounds as though you have put more time in to the thought than me. As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if I came to the conclusion that Jokic is these things if I did my own research. I certainly wouldn't view Giannis as anywhere close to that level of offensive ceiling raiser. He has far too many clear flaws in his offensive game and doesn't belong in that sort of discussion.

I view a player being the best of all time at something over his career as more relevant when trying to rank players against one another in an all time context, but not very relevant to a specific MVP campaign.

[bbms]

i see the discussion went away from the 2024-25 nba mvp

[Exp0sed]

The difference in Defense between Giannis and Jokic is bigger than people think looking at stats it’s the eye test and Giannis can raise his level of play to make that elite block to save a game which jokic is not capable of doing. Watch these playoffs with a healthy Giannis to understand what I am talking about.

Jokic has more career game-winning blocks than Giannis, fwiw

[DrModesty]

i see the discussion went away from the 2024-25 nba mvp

I think he is resting the final 2 games.