Kevin Durant's legacy

[Homer38]

Again, why does LeBron get a pass for this, it's just as effective of a strategy as joining an already established culture.

No,you are wrong or KD would win muitiples rings with the Nets without problem

[shi-woo]

LeBron couldn't get past the Celtic's, that was the whole point of creating the superteams in the first place,

Actually, the Celtics would be the first of those superteams. KG was a 22/12/4 player who led the league in rebounding and was a high-end defender the year before he joined the Celtics. Pierce was a 25/6/4 player the year prior but didn't make the AS team due to injuries. Ray Allen was about a 26/5/4 player the season before joining Boston.

So of course you needed some proper juice to go after a team like that.

And yet there were multiple teams with similar construction during that era, and none of them were considered superteams.

Suns- MVP Nash, ANBA Amare, ANBA MAtrix
Nets- MVP Kidd, ANBA Carter, and AS level RJ
Nuggets- MVP level Melo, ANBA Billups/Iverson, and DPoY Camby
Hornet- MVP level Paul, ANBA Chandler, AS West
Spurs- Timmy, Manu, Parker
Wizards- As's Gil, Toine, and Butler.
Jazz- ANBA Williams, ANBA Boozer, AS AK and Okur, and future AS Paul and Korver in prime
HOU- ANBA Yao, TMAc, and DPoY level Battier
Lakers- MVP Kobe, ANBA Pau, ANBA Bynum
Mavs- MVP Dirk, AS Kidd, AS Howard

The Celtic's Big 3 was just hated because most people wanted KG on their team when he requested out and it was considered sleazy for McHale to trade him to Boston because he has ties their, similar to how people felt after the Luka trade with Nico. KG had an aura about him similar to Luka, and most people knew it was just a matter of when if he ever got to a good situation. BOS was the favorites for sure, but enough people questioned whether it would work, for how long, and if they would have enough.

Celtics were far from the only team with an MVP level player flanked by 2 former all stars/ all nba players, it was way more common than you'd think. What made the BOS team special is all 3 of their guys were under rated offball/teams guys, and the GM who everyone says can't draft just happened to knock it out of the park with Rondo Perk, Tony, and Powe, all contributing on rookie contracts like they were 10 year vets...That is literally the only thing that separated the Celtics from their peers back then. 8 of the 11 superteams mentioned were out West. LeBron knew damn well what he was doing when he went to MIA and started the propaganda we all know and love today,

By the time 2011 rolled around, the Big 3 was not even remotely close to what you were making them out to be. Ray was literally what people view Klay now, and KG and Pierce were borderline All-Stars. Rondo was the best player on our team in 2011. LBJ 100% took the easiest way out, and took 2 of the 3 best players with him, destroying 2 of the up and coming teams and spirling the East into a hell hole as Dwight requested out, and Boston got old. Every team but the Heat went into rebuild mode after 2011...What competition was James facing at that point? The Hawks?

[maverick_41]

KD is a quite boring player for the superstar.
From the top of my head I remember only 2 plays: a sneaker on the line and a 3-pointer against Lebron in G3 that sealed 2017 finals.

For every other superstar I remember tonnes of highlights and signature games.

[tsherkin]

[
And yet there were multiple teams with similar construction during that era, and none of them were considered superteams.

Suns- MVP Nash, ANBA Amare, ANBA MAtrix

Excellent, no doubt. Not very good on defense, but they were a high-octane team, and among the best in the leagues.

Nets- MVP Kidd, ANBA Carter, and AS level RJ
Nuggets- MVP level Melo, ANBA Billups/Iverson, and DPoY Camby
Wizards- As's Gil, Toine, and Butler.
Hornet- MVP level Paul, ANBA Chandler, AS West
Wizards- As's Gil, Toine, and Butler.
Jazz- ANBA Williams, ANBA Boozer, AS AK and Okur, and future AS Paul and Korver in prime
HOU- ANBA Yao, TMAc, and DPoY level Battier
Mavs- MVP Dirk, AS Kidd, AS Howard

Kind of a joke to include these guys. None of them were of a similar level.

Spurs- Timmy, Manu, Parker
Lakers- MVP Kobe, ANBA Pau, ANBA Bynum

Bynum played 35 games in 2008, and under 29 mpg. He struggled with injuries until he finished his career, as it happens, and made a single All-Star team in his career.

The Celtic's Big 3 was just hated because most people wanted KG on their team when he requested out and it was considered sleazy for McHale to trade him to Boston because he has ties their, similar to how people felt after the Luka trade with Nico. KG had an aura about him similar to Luka, and most people knew it was just a matter of when if he ever got to a good situation. BOS was the favorites for sure, but enough people questioned whether it would work, for how long, and if they would have enough.

No one's talking about hate. We're just talking about having three full-ass perennial All-Stars on the squad who had been elite players on their own teams just the season prior. The single difference between Boston and the Heat was that the Celtics managed to do that on their own.

Fans bitching about Lebron are generally spouting off hot air, that's all.

By the time 2011 rolled around, the Big 3 was not even remotely close to what you were making them out to be.

I was talking about 2008-2010 quite explicitly, because Lebron hadn't joined Miami yet, and that's when he had trouble beating them. Why would I be talking about 2011?

[ball_takes23]

You can criticize the guy for sure. But this is quite the hot take. He recently almost single handily willed the nets down two stars to the finals against a really good Celtics team.

"almost"

He was really good at doing almosts. Since you're nitpicking, he almost took down the 73-9 Warriors team, only to choke the series away with those horrible Game 6 and Game 7. Let's stop praising "almosts" and judge players for what they have actually done.

The problem with this take which a lot of anti KD fans don't want to address, is why does LeBron, the greatest "winner" of his era get a pass, when he's never won a title on a team he didn't hand pick, and played with 3 other Top 5 guys in AD Luka and Wade, and other Top All-NBA dudes in Kyrie, Love, and Bosh...

What has LeBron and Kobe done without another Top 10 player on their team? Literally nothing. KD is the only star that was expected to just sit their and take it, the LeBron show was too important and didn't have room for a co-star until Curry kicked the doors down.

If we are going to go at KD for going to the best situation possible, than we need to do that same for all the stars from that terrible era. If the LeBron propaganda machine wasn't in full effect to do the Hero-Villain-Comeback arc, he would still be the villain. Why don't people cry about him leaving Miami? Melo forced his way to NY to play with Chandler and Amare, two other ANBA guys. What about dudes like KAwhii, George, AD, Dwight, Paul ect who forced their way to LA? Deron forced a trade to BRK to play with Lopez, Pierce, KG, and Joe. Kyrie did the same.

We don't care about those guys because they didn't win when they did this. LeBron won. KD won. So we hate them. KD did it in a way that made the formers accomplishments look weak, so we hate him even more. No one says Wade lost shine because of LeBron joining like they do Curry.

As long as LeBron stans and the NBA media in general refuse to acknowledge that KD going to GSW was just the natural counterbalance to LeBron's superteam forming habits, we will get no where with these discussions. It was an arms race, and one guy showed no self restrait, respect for the sport, owned the media and an agency company, so the other guy had to do what he had to do to make sure he got his. That's just how it is...

Most of yall arn't docking LBJ, so it just becomes tit for tat, and whenever you disrespect KD, i'll point out LEBron probably did it first.

No one cares about 73wins when you don't win the title. If healthy in 2015, Cavs win that one too. KD going to the Warriors made the NBA broken, but it also gave the NBA the only team that could match the CAVS with literally 3 All-NBA players and a deep squad of proven veteran role players. Cavs also stormed through the NBA during that time, making 4 Finals in a row...But that's all because of LeBron's greatness though, right? And not because he teamed up with 2 other All-NBA players.

KD definitely deserves all of the criticism and legacy-staining that he got for the move to GSW but its pretty clear that a lot of the reasons for the criticism are pretty dishonest. An unbiased observer would tell you that KD, who made the weakest move in NBA history, and Lebron, who made the weakest move in NBA history at the time, are both responsible for the degradation of the NBA and leaving the league worse off than how they got it. Instead, the context you see KD's GSW move brought up is usually to excuse Lebron for leaving the team that drafted him in 2010 and forming a superteam with 3 top-15 players in Miami, as if Lebron somehow knew that KD was going to make an even weaker move 6 years later. It's pretty clear that the primary driver of KD's criticism is not that he made an anti-competitive move, but that he made an anti-competitive move that stood in the way of Lebron winning more rings. KD's legacy would be much better off right now if he had gone to the actual champions in the summer of 2016 and helped Lebron and his other 2 all-stars win endless rings, because then at least he would be on the right side of the Lebron propaganda machine.

[shi-woo]

Kind of a joke to include these guys. None of them were of a similar level.

I disagree. Obviously the Celtic Big 3 was incredible, but the only reason we view them that way now is because they won. Changing their entire narrative is what started off the superteam arms race. Pierce was not considered a winning player back then. Allen just a solid scorer. KG wasn't "him" because he couldn't carry.

Iverson/Billups were legit former MVP's still in their primes with Melo were legit top 10 guys playing together, and Camby literally won DPoY in 08. Again though, no rangz so screw em.

Same with Kidd and Vince. Kidd a legit MVP player, Carter averaged your 25/5/5 before and during the team up, and RJ wasn't far behind though I admit he wasn't as good.

In 2007 mostly everyone would have taken Timmy over KG, and Manu over Pierce...Tony was even getting talk as a top 10 player.

You are falling victim to ring bias, which is exactly why these dudes team up in the first place. If they don't win in 2008 Pierce and Allen would be looked at completely differently. In 2007 both were considered worse players than Iverson, Carter, and TMac. In 2009 they were considered better. Winning changes everything, but the fast that that list of players is still similar in awards to the Boston Big 3 doesn't change.

Chris Paul WAS an MVP level player. Tyson Chandler WAS an ANBA and DPoY player, David West WAS an AS, and Peja WAS a former AS. Just because they didn't win doesn't take that away from those guys, and it's impossible to truly quantify who really was the better ANBA or AS player. Which is why I think the difference came in the margins with the guys Ainge scooped in the draft.

I also disagree with your logic. KG was hurt in 2009 and Cavs lost to the Magic. LeBron played the Celtics 2 times. That rivalry is so overblown. LBJ couldn't get by any competent team. 2007 was a fluke, and it set unrealistic expectations. DET, BOS, and ORL. It wasn't just one team he struggled with

[Dubnation]

They won the title in 2015 with a 67 wins team.....And KD could not beat that team in 2016

We're not talking about 2015, are we?

Who care....It was still a title team not too long ago back in 2016

Who cares? Anyone who's logical, and precise. and understands the game in that no team is the same year to year.

[Raps in 4]

LeBron and KD are both prolific ring chasers.

LeBron is also a much better player than KD ever was.

Both things can be true.

[tsherkin]

I disagree. Obviously the Celtic Big 3 was incredible, but the only reason we view them that way now is because they won

No, objectively, that Big Three was better than any of those other groups in the block I quoted. The only team that was on a comparable level at that point in time was the Spurs, and their O was nothing special.

. Changing their entire narrative is what started off the superteam arms race. Pierce was not considered a winning player back then. Allen just a solid scorer. KG wasn't "him" because he couldn't carry.

Pierce had playoff performance issues, for sure, but was still an excellent player. KG was still an MVP and a high-end defensive player. The questions around him centered around comparisons to the Top 10 all-time, not so much impeachment of his utility. And Ray Allen had elevated Danny Fortson, Reggie Evans and Rashard Lewis to the playoffs. He was a known quantity.

Iverson/Billups were legit former MVP's

Stop. Billups was never an MVP, and Iverson WASN'T a legit MVP.

still in their primes with Melo were legit top 10 guys playing together, and Camby literally won DPoY in 08. Again though, no rangz so screw em.

Because they sucked in the playoffs and because they didn't have amazing chemistry.

Same with Kidd and Vince. Kidd a legit MVP player,

No, he wasn't.

Carter averaged your 25/5/5 before and during the team up

And generally on bleh efficiency, and then unremarkable in the playoffs...

, and RJ wasn't far behind

Yes, he was. That isn't a legitimate positon.

In 2007 mostly everyone would have taken Timmy over KG,

Yes, though that doesn't actually say anything of value. Tim Duncan was an incredible player.

You are falling victim to ring bias,

No, I'm not. It's the same opinion I had in 2008, when this actually happened.

Chris Paul WAS an MVP level player.

Mmm, debatable, but in 2008 specifically, he was still amazing and prior to major injury, playing incredible ball.

Tyson Chandler WAS an ANBA and DPoY player, David West WAS an AS, and Peja WAS a former AS.

Peja was a 16.4 ppg player. David West was like a crappier version of Carlos Boozer. He was a 53.5% TS player, which was 0.5% below league average, despite almost 57% of his shots inside the arc being assisted, and generally being a poor finisher in close. Including West, who was selected to the ASG primarily because he averaged 20.6 ppg, doesn't really play well in this conversation.

They were nothing like the Celtics on either end of the floor. They were good but primarily because Paul orchestrated an extremely efficient offense.

I also disagree with your logic. KG was hurt in 2009 and Cavs lost to the Magic. LeBron played the Celtics 2 times. That rivalry is so overblown.

None of that really disagrees with anything I said.

LBJ couldn't get by any competent team. 2007 was a fluke, and it set unrealistic expectations. DET, BOS, and ORL. It wasn't just one team he struggled with

Right, but this ignores the fact that the Cavs were hilariously awful around him. Of course he couldn't get by good teams. That isn't any different than when Jordan was getting spanked by the Celtics and the Pistons. Let's not play silly buggers games here.

[Cavsfansince84]

The thing that sort of hovers over KD's legacy as a player to me is intangibles and chemistry wise it just seems much harder to build around him compared to the two other generational guys he played with/against(LeBron & Steph). On top of saying the main reason he went to GS is he didn't want to be a leader. So if you give all 3 these guys equal or close to equal supporting casts for 7 years the guy I would most expect to win a title(s) is LeBron followed slightly by Steph(who is less durable and not quite as good at excelling in the playoffs) then clearly below them I'd put KD. The first two won titles with 2-3 different casts(LeBron with 3 completely different teams) while KD only did it with Steph and only came sort of close 1 other time with WB. Maybe they get it done had Kyrie and Harden stayed healthy that one year but its sort of a big if.

[tsherkin]

The thing that sort of hovers over KD's legacy as a player to me is intangibles and chemistry wise it just seems much harder to build around him compared to the two other generational guys he played with/against(LeBron & Steph).

This is what happens when you aren't a particularly good playmaker. And when you isolate a lot more than you function as a movement shooter (relative to someone like Steph). Durant was fairly resistant to running offense, too, at times, and preferred just straight-up 1v-D. And that wasn't amazing.

Ultimately, Durant was "just" a scorer. Kinda like Adrian Dantley or George Gervin. And that just goes only so much.

[The Master]

The thing that sort of hovers over KD's legacy as a player to me is intangibles and chemistry wise it just seems much harder to build around him compared to the two other generational guys he played with/against(LeBron & Steph). On top of saying the main reason he went to GS is he didn't want to be a leader. So if you give all 3 these guys equal or close to equal supporting casts for 7 years the guy I would most expect to win a title(s) is LeBron followed slightly by Steph(who is less durable and not quite as good at excelling in the playoffs) then clearly below them I'd put KD. The first two won titles with 2-3 different casts(LeBron with 3 completely different teams) while KD only did it with Steph and only came sort of close 1 other time with WB. Maybe they get it done had Kyrie and Harden stayed healthy that one year but its sort of a big if.

Durant isn't as good player as LeBron and Curry, simple as that, but this is any sort of legacy asterisk only for those actually believing in ~2017 that perhaps Durant is on par or better than at least one of them (Steph, probably), if I'm being honest. In reality, there was no point in time in which KD was even close to have a resume of LeBron 2013 (RS MVP and a title with injured Wade) or Curry 2015 (RS MVP and a title on +10 SRS team as an anchor), so it was always very speculative narrative, to say the least, to compare KD to both. The more we follow contemporary NBA, the more we realize a true value of on-ball and off-ball playmaking and creation - Durant has always been a 2nd tier option here among all-time greats. So he ended up as a 2nd tier offensive player.

KD is probably a bit underrated tho once he improved his playmaking as an offensive facilitator, the series against Bucks in 2021 is probably a decent example you could comfortably create a championship team around KD once he improved his handles and resilience to physical 1v1 defense. We didn't see that much of that due to injuries and Warriors move though.

[tsherkin]

the series against Bucks in 2021 is probably a decent example you could comfortably create a championship team around KD once he improved his handles and resilience to physical 1v1 defense.

Mmm, dunno about that. Durant isn't really a stunner in that regard to this day and he was a 4 tpg player in that series against 5.4 apg. He was scoring over 35 ppg on 59.4% TS (+2.4% rTS relative to league playoff average) in that series. Middleton and Holiday sucked, and Giannis shot just over 48% at the line.

They'd have still had to beat the Hawks and the Suns, so the outcome of a given individual series isn't really that telling. It informs us as to what we already knew: dude could score with anyone.

[AmIWrongDude]

When people say KD just did what LeBron they’re purposely ignoring all context. LeBron went from an org that failed to support him correctly for 7 years to build a top heavy team that admittedly had a ton of talent at the top.

KD left a team that was already stacked and had a ridiculously bright future in front of them to join a team that won in 2015 and lost in the 7th game of the Finals and 2016 and also beat HIS team in 2016. You really have to go out of your way to make them seem the same.

Woulda thought by now with KD not winning **** without the Warriors and LeBron winning everywhere he goes, there’s a big gap between them as players and winners. KD is an upper echelon scorer but a “merely great” player/winner.

[f4p]

The thing that sort of hovers over KD's legacy as a player to me is intangibles and chemistry wise it just seems much harder to build around him compared to the two other generational guys he played with/against(LeBron & Steph). On top of saying the main reason he went to GS is he didn't want to be a leader. So if you give all 3 these guys equal or close to equal supporting casts for 7 years the guy I would most expect to win a title(s) is LeBron followed slightly by Steph(who is less durable and not quite as good at excelling in the playoffs) then clearly below them I'd put KD. The first two won titles with 2-3 different casts(LeBron with 3 completely different teams) while KD only did it with Steph and only came sort of close 1 other time with WB. Maybe they get it done had Kyrie and Harden stayed healthy that one year but its sort of a big if.

.
Steph won with 3 different casts? He had klay and dray and Kerr for every one. Role players change all the time in the nba but having the same 2 main teammate and coach for 10 years is as stable as it can possibly get. Unless we're counting adding MVP Durant as some sort of challenge to overcome. KD got to the finals with Westbrook and lost to a lebron heatles team. That doesn't indicate being difficult to build around. And saying Brooklyn is a big if because they only got 1 second from beating the eventual champs without his 2 best teammates should make it seem clear it's not a very big if at all. I mean if giannis doesn't undercut Kyrie, they probably win even then.

[The Master]

Mmm, dunno about that. Durant isn't really a stunner in that regard to this day and he was a 4 tpg player in that series against 5.4 apg. He was scoring over 35 ppg on 59.4% TS (+2.4% rTS relative to league playoff average) in that series. Middleton and Holiday sucked, and Giannis shot just over 48% at the line.

They'd have still had to beat the Hawks and the Suns, so the outcome of a given individual series isn't really that telling. It informs us as to what we already knew: dude could score with anyone.

He was still able to provide 35-5 on +59TS% against a very good defensive team (probably underperforming in the regular season, coz they were the best defense in the playoffs that year) without that much of offensive support (Kyrie and JH injuries). He was an inch away from eliminating them, actually.

The difference between KD and Kobe (I don't think we should operate on the level of prime Steph or LeBron comparisons, these are so different players) was always in my eyes that while both of them were sub-optimal playmakers, Bryant was very resilient as a scorer in the playoffs and that wasn't the case with KD (these series against Spurs 2014 or Warriors 2016 were very mediocre in that regard). I do believe he improved in dealing with physical individual coverage after the series against Warriors in 2016 though - but I also agree that we don't have that much of actual proof to support this thesis, but I did mention that in my previous post. So, with the series against Bucks, we're talking singular example based on an assumption that a year later he was washed, so it's far-reaching anyway. But yeah, that's my point.

[tsherkin]

He was still able to provide 35-5 on +59TS% against a very good defensive team

Yes, because he's an excellent scorer. And not a very good playmaker. Which is what we were discussing.

He was an inch away from eliminating them, actually.

Yeah, they went to 7 games, for sure. It was an impressive series.

The difference between KD and Kobe (I don't think we should operate on the level of prime Steph or LeBron comparisons, these are so different players) was always in my eyes that while both of them were sub-optimal playmakers, Bryant was very resilient as a scorer in the playoffs and that wasn't the case with KD

That isn't quite true. Kobe was flaming ass in the Finals, for example, 01-10, he was a 55.9% TS guy in the RS and 54.8% in the playoffs, and worse still in the Finals. I don't know if "resilient" is the appropriate word.

So, with the series against Bucks, we're talking singular example based on an assumption that a year later he was washed, so it's far-reaching anyway. But yeah, that's my point.

Again though, a single series isn't really meaningful in the context of the notion of if you could build around a guy.

[Cavsfansince84]

.
Steph won with 3 different casts? He had klay and dray and Kerr for every one. Role players change all the time in the nba but having the same 2 main teammate and coach for 10 years is as stable as it can possibly get. Unless we're counting adding MVP Durant as some sort of challenge to overcome. KD got to the finals with Westbrook and lost to a lebron heatles team. That doesn't indicate being difficult to build around. And saying Brooklyn is a big if because they only got 1 second from beating the eventual champs without his 2 best teammates should make it seem clear it's not a very big if at all. I mean if giannis doesn't undercut Kyrie, they probably win even then.

I said 2/3. 2 meaning Steph. Obviously its not as clear cut as it is with LeBron but you gotta give him some credit for winning before KD, with him and after. There was a lot of turnover with the roster in those years outside of Draymond and Klay(who had declined by 2022). Saying anything in that much certainty about a team with KD, Harden(who was banged up and not at 100% regardless) and Kyrie is just sort of hard though. I mean sure they could have won it all but I don't think its just a matter of winning that game 7. There's more to winning titles than how you are making it out.

[SpreeChokeJob]

What legacy? He doesn’t have one. He tried to do it himself like LeBron and failed. The only legacy he has was being part of some historic Warriors teams, but in terms of individual accomplishments he probably won’t be remembered. Had he stayed on the Warriors, the narrative would have been it was his team eventually. Once Curry won his fourth ring, it ended any debate on whose team it was. If he’s lucky he will be remembered in a Pippen way.

[NBA_is_cringe]

he's a beta, he's irrelevant