Bucks/Pacers Lead-up - Dame Cleared for Practice

[Ron Swanson]

The fact that we maybe might have stumbled into a legit two-way 3rd option guy/Khris replacement should get people excited for what this team can be with a Giannis/Dame/KPJ offensive trio. Replace Doc with an actual good/innovative offensive mind, and sky's the limit. But I guess some are really convinced that having two good offensive shot-creators in your backcourt is somehow a bad thing? Even when that's exactly how the #1 offense in basketball is currently constructed (Cleveland).

P&R ball-handler stats:

Dame: 1.07 PPP (93rd percentile, #3 in the NBA)
KPJ: 1.06 (91st percentile, #6 in the NBA) *small sample size alert*

[nagawicka]

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Kindofa dubious and predictable construct though. Giannis 'made them look better', but did he make them better players? How useful is this.
Do the 4 other Bucks in our highest-rated lineup also 'make Giannis look better'? If his numbers are slightly down from lineups where he puts on a one-man show, did 'they' make him worse? Or is he really better for real, functionally, b/c the lineup rises together and gets better as a whole, regardless of whether Giannis' personal stats are up or down.

Lineup data is generally misleading. It doesn't take a quantum physics formula to know that a generational player in his prime will make the lineups he's in look better (and vice versa). Hence why the lineups with him, Green, Trent, Portis and KPJ look so great. It's a lineup that optimizes his strengths with shooting and competent team defense.

Eh, it's led to lots of poor analysis. It's not enough that other players 'look good'. If it were valid, the other four guys would also be 'making Giannis look good'. To his credit, Giannis has been throwing down Very Hefty assist numbers. So what isn't being captured. No one needs a quantum physics formula when this metric enables some not really math-ing analysis. It gets tossed around yet it doesn't seem to measure what folks are looking for.

[CharityStripe34]

The fact that we maybe might have stumbled into a legit two-way 3rd option guy/Khris replacement should get people excited for what this team can be with a Giannis/Dame/KPJ offensive trio. Replace Doc with an actual good/innovative offensive mind, and sky's the limit. But I guess some are really convinced that having two good offensive shot-creators in your backcourt is somehow a bad thing? Even when that's exactly how the #1 offense in basketball is currently constructed (Cleveland).

P&R ball-handler stats:

Dame: 1.07 PPP (93rd percentile, #3 in the NBA)
KPJ: 1.06 (91st percentile, #6 in the NBA) *small sample size alert*

Maybe if Doc wasn't playing guys way out of position with the Jumbo Package starting lineup, things would make sense. Kuzma should be off the bench, Prince would be okay as the starting 3 (at least in his natural position), GTJ can start. Then you bring in the bench mob of KPJ, Bobby, Green and Kuzma. Depending on matchups KPJ, Bobby and Green could close with Dame and Giannis. I'd love to see a Dame/KPJ back court. KPJ brings some defense and physicality coupled with great athleticism. The fact that he's found some instant chemistry with Giannis is huge, though I suspect Carlisle will start trapping him on the high-screen and he has to be ready. Guys generally are sagging off him which is giving him a runway to the rim as the help defender won't leave Giannis on the roll.

[KidA24]

Doc has a pretty damn good record in the playoffs when he's the underdog and he's consistently been able to max role players. Probably still giving Carlisle the edge but so many of you are lost in narrative instead of reality.

Same goes for Dame, some of you lost in your own crazy heads thinking the team is better off without him.

Betting odds and analysts all showing Bucks at around 30% to win the series and that seems fair. Looking forward to seeing who shows up. Bobby/KPJ/GTJ/Prince could all get paid millions more if they have a good series.

Agree with almost everything here, but wanted to address the Dame part. You can contend that the team won't continue to be better without Dame, but it's fact that the team was better without Dame this season.

The team was better with Dame last season when we were still letting Giannis be Giannis, but in an effort to help Dame, we handed him the keys this year, and that didn't maximize our talent or properly leverage Giannis.

If Dame makes it back, it's time for him to swallow his pride, and just fit in off ball.

Dame's usage is down from last year where Giannis' jumped from 33% to 35.2%. Giannis is taking more than 2 shots per-100 more than last year whereas Dame is taking 1 less. Dame's pick & roll usage is down by 4% from last year. He's been more efficient this season (11th best offensive player in the league by EPM) in a lesser role by every metric you wanna use. There is absolutely zero evidence that we "handed the keys to Dame" this year, and it's crazy the amount of un-true junk you just throw out there so confidently lol.

It's almost as if...

[German Athens]

I think for the most part we talk about the two-man game wrong between Giannis and Dame.

Dame is predominantly getting trapped on those ball screens, and it’s effective defense.

There’s been plenty of consternation about Giannis not setting the screen for Dame and slipping instead, but when a big comes to the level of the screen, Giannis setting a screen on the primary guard doesn’t accomplish much. It could force a switch, but it’s not creating space - a defender is waiting for Dame on the other side.

The way to beat that defense is to slip and hit that guy with a pass. We don’t reliably hit that pass though.

I think Giannis can get knocked for the times in which the big doesn’t come to the level, and he’s not recognizing the defense correctly every time, but I think it’s mostly right.

[German Athens]

I don’t think Dame has the athleticism anymore or the handle when facing a double to reliably split, attack the big to get the edge, or the size/feel to reliably hit the man in the center of the court around the free throw line.

Getting the ball to that guy opens up everything. The player is then one dribble from the rim, and he has shooters available in all areas of the arc. It almost always leads to a double, because teams freak out when a player gets in the paint.

Instead, most of the traps/doubles lead Dame to pass the ball to the top of the arc, often times even a little further back, but this isn’t nearly as advantageous, and it often essentially resets the offense. Getting that ball to KPJ instead of Brook in that situation would help, but it’s a very momentary benefit that mostly gets a somewhat open above the break 3.

It’s not bad, but it’s definitely not great either.

[raferfenix]

Dame’s trade value potentially taking a cataclysmic hit is real bad.

But the Bucks getting a test case of what we play like without him could be worse — at least if KPJ keeps this up.

Even if we keep 36 year old Dame he doesn’t need to be at the center of things.

Focus on letting Giannis be Giannis.

[Thunder Muscle]

Feel like we’re in the “I can talk myself into why we may win the series” phase but for me its just the fact that what stretch should I hang my hat on? Yes, we’re 8-0 in April BUT against mostly garbage teams and 1 that wasn’t needed a historic comeback to get the win. And the Pacers aren’t exactly limping into the playoffs either. I believe they finished the season 15-4 which also did have garbage teams too.

The Dame dynamic is weird. He is a huge void ao if doesn’t play seems like a tall task to win. But if comes back you’re talking a guy thats been out a month and how will the team adjust back to playing with him. And will he stay healthy?

I think the Bucks can win the series but the margin for error is very slim. I think you have to find a way to steal Game 1 or 2 to have a shot.

[CharityStripe34]

I don’t think Dame has the athleticism anymore or the handle when facing a double to reliably split, attack the big to get the edge, or the size/feel to reliably hit the man in the center of the court around the free throw line.

Getting the ball to that guy opens up everything. The player is then one dribble from the rim, and he has shooters available in all areas of the arc. It almost always leads to a double, because teams freak out when a player gets in the paint.

Instead, most of the traps/doubles lead Dame to pass the ball to the top of the arc, often times even a little further back, but this isn’t nearly as advantageous, and it often essentially resets the offense. Getting that ball to KPJ instead of Brook in that situation would help, but it’s a very momentary benefit that mostly gets a somewhat open above the break 3.

It’s not bad, but it’s definitely not great either.

I thought the EXACT same thing every time I see their high screen. Teams usually trap Dame because it's harder for him to make that slip pass to Giannis. He correctly slips the screen when his man comes and shows high. Sometimes he's too quick to do it even when his defender doesn't show that high. Though Dame's not exactly blowing by mismatches either. With Brook it's different because he usually pops.

[German Athens]

I don’t think Dame has the athleticism anymore or the handle when facing a double to reliably split, attack the big to get the edge, or the size/feel to reliably hit the man in the center of the court around the free throw line.

Getting the ball to that guy opens up everything. The player is then one dribble from the rim, and he has shooters available in all areas of the arc. It almost always leads to a double, because teams freak out when a player gets in the paint.

Instead, most of the traps/doubles lead Dame to pass the ball to the top of the arc, often times even a little further back, but this isn’t nearly as advantageous, and it often essentially resets the offense. Getting that ball to KPJ instead of Brook in that situation would help, but it’s a very momentary benefit that mostly gets a somewhat open above the break 3.

It’s not bad, but it’s definitely not great either.

I thought the EXACT same thing every time I see their high screen. Teams usually trap Dame because it's harder for him to make that slip pass to Giannis. He correctly slips the screen when his man comes and shows high. Sometimes he's too quick to do it even when his defender doesn't show that high. Though Dame's not exactly blowing by mismatches either. With Brook it's different because he usually pops.

Yeah, I think that’s a big reason why we see Brook used there more often, because Dame can make that pass to the top more than the middle. In that case, you want a guy who can shoot when he gets it at the top.

The problem is if the offense is generating 30 foot Brook bombs, that’s bad offense.

You can bring over littles instead, but then you’re bringing over a defender who’s more capable of guarding dame on the perimeter, and a defender who can scramble faster.

Forcing their big to move is a good process, we just don’t take advantage in the ways we hoped.

[milwaukee bunks]

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[Bucksmaniac]

Dame’s trade value potentially taking a cataclysmic hit is real bad.

But the Bucks getting a test case of what we play like without him could be worse — at least if KPJ keeps this up.

Even if we keep 36 year old Dame he doesn’t need to be at the center of things.

Focus on letting Giannis be Giannis.

This is why I hope Dame comes back in the playoffs, he can hide KPJ’s potential to where he’s more of a supporting force and might make it easier to keep him while still potentially helping the team make it further.

[German Athens]

I think KPJ exploding and having a phenomenal series could also mean he’s found his fit here, and would be willing to comeback for less than what he’s offered elsewhere just like Bobby.

[MickeyDavis]

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[Milbucks96]

So if we make it to ecf/finals, maybe he can go?

[German Athens]

Teams according to spotrac that are projected to have more cap space than the MLE

Bkn - 91m
Det- 24m
Chi- 19m - likely not due to Giddey RFA
Mem - 17m - likely not due to Santi RFA
Nop - 21m
Was - 14m just a couple hundred k over the mle
Hou - 19m

There’s a few other team that could get more by declining cap holds and options, but that’s probably the list above.

Brooklyn would probably be the main threat, but would they bother?

Memphis won’t, since they’re already dealing with Ja, and they have Santi money to worry about. Houston has been there and done that - probably wouldn’t be interested on either side. Detroit and Chicago already have guys starting in the positions he would likely play. Plus Chicago has Giddey as an RFA, and Det will probably want Malik back. Nop may be heading toward a rebuild, otherwise they have Dejounte and CJ there already. Washington’s washington, and can barely offer more.

I think he’s probably back, unless he wants to go somewhere else for nicer weather at the same money. His fit here is optimal, though.

If he blows up in a big way, Brooklyn’s probably the only team to watch out for.

[Milbucks96]

Happy to see he’s getting better though. It’s really easy to get caught up the basketball side of it and forget that he’s dealing with a serious issue.

[Thunder Muscle]

Happy to see he’s getting better though. It’s really easy to get caught up the basketball side of it and forget that he’s dealing with a serious issue.

That is a good point. This issue is more of a serious life altering nature vs like a high ankle sprain. It definitely is easy to lose sight of that as fans.

[steger_3434]

Death, taxes, and the bucks saying a player that won’t play is on the verge of playing during the playoffs


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[pifhluk23]

So if we make it to ecf/finals, maybe he can go?

Lol, I'd bet the house against beating a healthy Cavs or Celtics team in a 7 game series without Dame.