Bucks/Pacers Lead-up - Dame Cleared for Practice

[WiscoKing13]

Very interesting whenever doc got asked a question about scoot he always brought up Rollins.

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[BUCKnation]

Pacers have won pretty much every close game over the last 20 or so games. The only loss was a lebron tip in at the buzzer. They’ve undoubtedly had some insane luck in a lot of those but there’s skill in their crazy shot making in the last 2 min of these games. I’d be nervous if he we held a small lead going into clutch time.

[ShootingtheJ]

This is an excellent example of exactly what Marques Johnson was talking about on his last broadcast, how people misunderstand the usage stat. Usage only tells us who had the ball at the end, and doesn't tell us who initiated the set or how long they had the ball.

Now, I 100% believe you know this and are just being obstinate.

I also don't believe that you have so little understanding of Xs and Os that you actually think that Giannis role in the offense is the same as it was earlier in the season. You can't tell me that when you watch the game, you don't see the difference, I won't believe you. His role has changed dramatically, and the results are measurably better.

This basically comes down to how much we're putting into this 14-game stretch since the Dame injury where we've gone 10-4 overall with only the 11th best net-rating (#4 offense and #20 defense), and 2-4 against teams that weren't actively tanking or missing half and/or all of their starting lineup. I'm sure it's entirely shocking to everyone here that you're just hand-waving and ignoring the defensive metrics seeing as that was your whole thing ("watch the defense get better by replacing Dame with Rollins/KPJ"), so naturally the goal posts get shifted again and it's now "Dame stymied the offense" despite the exact same on/off numbers you love to throw out once again proving that false (117.1 ON, 115.5 OFF), even with this stretch against mostly trash teams/defenses inflating that number and closing the gap on the overall season data.

So your really going to ignore the fact that we didn't get the expected defensive boost because we ran out of big men? The defense was forcing misses, but we were getting blasted on the boards with Bobby and Sims out. You're not actually contending that KPJ and Rollins weren't dynamic defensively? You saw it, many games they were the only ones defending while Prince, Kuzma and GTJ went through the motions.

Despite all of that, the defense was still 6 points/100 worse with Dame on the floor.

As for the offensive stuff, weren't you lambasting our offense all season long? Then we shift to Giannis as the hub, and we ended with a beautiful string of offense, including against 3- top 10 defenses, and another game where we had the highest TS% in NBA history against your all time favorite coach. Yes, small sample, but it was out best stretch of offense in years.

[Baddy Chuck]

This is an excellent example of exactly what Marques Johnson was talking about on his last broadcast, how people misunderstand the usage stat. Usage only tells us who had the ball at the end, and doesn't tell us who initiated the set or how long they had the ball.

Now, I 100% believe you know this and are just being obstinate.

I also don't believe that you have so little understanding of Xs and Os that you actually think that Giannis role in the offense is the same as it was earlier in the season. You can't tell me that when you watch the game, you don't see the difference, I won't believe you. His role has changed dramatically, and the results are measurably better.

This basically comes down to how much we're putting into this 14-game stretch since the Dame injury where we've gone 10-4 overall with only the 11th best net-rating (#4 offense and #20 defense), and 2-4 against teams that weren't actively tanking or missing half and/or all of their starting lineup. I'm sure it's entirely shocking to everyone here that you're just hand-waving and ignoring the defensive metrics seeing as that was your whole thing ("watch the defense get better by replacing Dame with Rollins/KPJ"), so naturally the goal posts get shifted again and it's now "Dame stymied the offense" despite the exact same on/off numbers you love to throw out once again proving that false (117.1 ON, 115.5 OFF), even with this stretch against mostly trash teams/defenses inflating that number and closing the gap on the overall season data.

So your really going to ignore the fact that we didn't get the expected defensive boost because we ran out of big men? The defense was forcing misses, but we were getting blasted on the boards with Bobby and Sims out. You're not actually contending that KPJ and Rollins weren't dynamic defensively? You saw it, many games they were the only ones defending while Prince, Kuzma and GTJ went through the motions.

Despite all of that, the defense was still 6 points/100 worse with Dame on the floor.

As for the offensive stuff, weren't you lambasting our offense all season long? Then we shift to Giannis as the hub, and we ended with a beautiful string of offense, including against 3- top 10 defenses, and another game where we had the highest TS% in NBA history against your all time favorite coach. Yes, small sample, but it was out best stretch of offense in years.

This goal posts of "Giannis the past few weeks" is also completely different than the original statement that "free 2024 Giannis" led us to playing good with Dame who was then restrained by 2025 "given the keys" Dame. This current Giannis is playing absolutely nothing like Giannis of last season and early season Giannis was playing basically exactly the same as Giannis of last, if not having an even larger role. For instance one big note is him having the ball. "Free Giannis" that led to us being good had 8.3 assists per 100 possession and 4.4 turnovers with Dame, this season was at 8 and 4.4. Since Dame went out this season Giannis has raised that to 12.2 and 3.1. You can definitely argue that Giannis playmaking is something that is a positive and something that we should have went more heavily even with Dame but the difference from last season to this with Dame was basically nothing.

Pace, holding the ball, etc is always brought up with Dame. You don't want to use usage, sure. They're similar to the point of it being almost inconsequential but Dames seconds per touch and dribbles per touch are down from last season. 7.4 time of possession, 5.2 seconds per touch, 4.8 dribbles per touch compared to last season 7.4, 5.6, 5.1. Conversely "free Giannis" (4.7, 3.5, 2.5) compared to "hand it over to Dame Giannis" (5.5, 4, 2.9) saw his time increase. Pace is lower without Dame, seconds per possession is higher (though basically the same). You can **** on usage now that it goes against your argument but Giannis with Dame last season was at 31.8% usage, this season with Dame he was at 36%. Dames lowered from 24.6 with Giannis to 24.1. Dame needing to "accept his role" and play off the ball is something that also just happened. Dame saw his catch and shoot shots raise by 25% (a pretty telling stat for his usage off the ball), while raising his shooting percentage on those to 41.5% from 32 last season.

We've seen some awesome stuff the past few weeks for sure, but that doesn't need to retcon what happened last season with Dame. We don't need to make up these fictional shifts of Dames game, Giannis' role, that went from him being the top on/off player on the team to where we are now.

[Profound23]

Lol, I'd bet the house against beating a healthy Cavs or Celtics team in a 7 game series without Dame.

I doubt Dame will be available at all.

But if we are good enough to make it to the ECF without him, at that point do you even want him back? The only way we get that far is with Giannis going God mode and KPJ continuing to grow. Bringing Dame back after winning two series would stunt everything.

Yeah, any time you can avoid adding a 25/7 guy who is a proven playoff riser, you gotta do it

I'm a bigger Dame fan than most. This statement wouldn't be against Dame.

I have no faith Dame will come back so quickly from a DVT.
I doubt we make it to the ECF, especially since I doubt Dame will come back.

If we win two playoff series without him and by some miracle he is ready to go that could be great but it could disrupt the chemistry the team built over those two series.

Either way I'd gladly take this hypothetical situation.

[jschligs]

I doubt Dame will be available at all.

But if we are good enough to make it to the ECF without him, at that point do you even want him back? The only way we get that far is with Giannis going God mode and KPJ continuing to grow. Bringing Dame back after winning two series would stunt everything.

Yeah, any time you can avoid adding a 25/7 guy who is a proven playoff riser, you gotta do it

I'm a bigger Dame fan than most. This statement wouldn't be against Dame.

I have no faith Dame will come back so quickly from a DVT.
I doubt we make it to the ECF, especially since I doubt Dame will come back.

If we win two playoff series without him and by some miracle he is ready to go that could be great but it could disrupt the chemistry the team built over those two series.

Either way I'd gladly take this hypothetical situation.

I 100% agree with what you're saying. The last month has been interesting. It's shown we can win without Dame (albeit against not amazing competition). And if we were able to push deep in the playoffs moving Dame for younger assets and draft capital maybe I wouldn't be against it. Especially knowing Dame is aging and he is owed $$$$.

[Ersanity]

We got 7 pm Friday and 8:30 pm Sunday for Games 3 and 4; should be two good crowds, even if the late start Sunday kinda sucks.

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[blazza18]

Read on Twitter

ESPNU/NBATV for game 3 fwiw

[MickeyDavis]

Read on Twitter

ESPNU/NBATV for game 3 fwiw

Games will also be on FDSWI locally

[BUCKnation]

8:30 on sunday? ugh

[Serge28]

Exactly. I was really hoping to avoid a game next Sunday, especially in the evening. The game is at 6:30 here in San Diego. It's also a one year anniversary for my GF and I, and we booked a restaurant for 7 like a month ago! Ugh...

[emunney]

This basically comes down to how much we're putting into this 14-game stretch since the Dame injury where we've gone 10-4 overall with only the 11th best net-rating (#4 offense and #20 defense), and 2-4 against teams that weren't actively tanking or missing half and/or all of their starting lineup. I'm sure it's entirely shocking to everyone here that you're just hand-waving and ignoring the defensive metrics seeing as that was your whole thing ("watch the defense get better by replacing Dame with Rollins/KPJ"), so naturally the goal posts get shifted again and it's now "Dame stymied the offense" despite the exact same on/off numbers you love to throw out once again proving that false (117.1 ON, 115.5 OFF), even with this stretch against mostly trash teams/defenses inflating that number and closing the gap on the overall season data.

So your really going to ignore the fact that we didn't get the expected defensive boost because we ran out of big men? The defense was forcing misses, but we were getting blasted on the boards with Bobby and Sims out. You're not actually contending that KPJ and Rollins weren't dynamic defensively? You saw it, many games they were the only ones defending while Prince, Kuzma and GTJ went through the motions.

Despite all of that, the defense was still 6 points/100 worse with Dame on the floor.

As for the offensive stuff, weren't you lambasting our offense all season long? Then we shift to Giannis as the hub, and we ended with a beautiful string of offense, including against 3- top 10 defenses, and another game where we had the highest TS% in NBA history against your all time favorite coach. Yes, small sample, but it was out best stretch of offense in years.

This goal posts of "Giannis the past few weeks" is also completely different than the original statement that "free 2024 Giannis" led us to playing good with Dame who was then restrained by 2025 "given the keys" Dame. This current Giannis is playing absolutely nothing like Giannis of last season and early season Giannis was playing basically exactly the same as Giannis of last, if not having an even larger role. For instance one big note is him having the ball. "Free Giannis" that led to us being good had 8.3 assists per 100 possession and 4.4 turnovers with Dame, this season was at 8 and 4.4. Since Dame went out this season Giannis has raised that to 12.2 and 3.1. You can definitely argue that Giannis playmaking is something that is a positive and something that we should have went more heavily even with Dame but the difference from last season to this with Dame was basically nothing.

Pace, holding the ball, etc is always brought up with Dame. You don't want to use usage, sure. They're similar to the point of it being almost inconsequential but Dames seconds per touch and dribbles per touch are down from last season. 7.4 time of possession, 5.2 seconds per touch, 4.8 dribbles per touch compared to last season 7.4, 5.6, 5.1. Conversely "free Giannis" (4.7, 3.5, 2.5) compared to "hand it over to Dame Giannis" (5.5, 4, 2.9) saw his time increase. Pace is lower without Dame, seconds per possession is higher (though basically the same). You can **** on usage now that it goes against your argument but Giannis with Dame last season was at 31.8% usage, this season with Dame he was at 36%. Dames lowered from 24.6 with Giannis to 24.1. Dame needing to "accept his role" and play off the ball is something that also just happened. Dame saw his catch and shoot shots raise by 25% (a pretty telling stat for his usage off the ball), while raising his shooting percentage on those to 41.5% from 32 last season.

We've seen some awesome stuff the past few weeks for sure, but that doesn't need to retcon what happened last season with Dame. We don't need to make up these fictional shifts of Dames game, Giannis' role, that went from him being the top on/off player on the team to where we are now.

Qualitatively, what this stretch has shown me cleaves a lot closer to what StJ is saying. The player movement offensively is just so much better without Dame. I actually don't think it's Dame's fault, though, at least not entirely. Some of it is coaching. The isos and the high pick and rolls are one thing, and some of that is Dame calling his own number, but the fact that there's nothing else going on off the ball while that stuff's happening? That's not Dame.

The biggest change is Giannis himself. Not just the way he's playing, but the way he's *talking* on the court. I have never seen him talking, directing traffic, sharing what he's seeing with the kind of assertiveness he's shown over the past couple weeks. For the first time in his career, he's leading by more than example. It's critical that he keeps this lack of deference, whether or not Dame comes back. This is a major, major development. I hope he recognizes it.

[jschligs]

$532 tickets for game 3 become $750 after fees. What a bunch of ****.

[MickeyDavis]

$532 tickets for game 3 become $750 after fees. What a bunch of ****.

Yeah fees can get crazy for the ultra expensive tickets but there are lowers on Stubhub for $70 or less including fees. There are center court tickets (section 106) for $184 including fees.

[DanoMac]

3 days off between 1 & 2 and 2 & 3 is huge. NBA wants to Dame to return

[Siefer]

So your really going to ignore the fact that we didn't get the expected defensive boost because we ran out of big men? The defense was forcing misses, but we were getting blasted on the boards with Bobby and Sims out. You're not actually contending that KPJ and Rollins weren't dynamic defensively? You saw it, many games they were the only ones defending while Prince, Kuzma and GTJ went through the motions.

Despite all of that, the defense was still 6 points/100 worse with Dame on the floor.

As for the offensive stuff, weren't you lambasting our offense all season long? Then we shift to Giannis as the hub, and we ended with a beautiful string of offense, including against 3- top 10 defenses, and another game where we had the highest TS% in NBA history against your all time favorite coach. Yes, small sample, but it was out best stretch of offense in years.

This goal posts of "Giannis the past few weeks" is also completely different than the original statement that "free 2024 Giannis" led us to playing good with Dame who was then restrained by 2025 "given the keys" Dame. This current Giannis is playing absolutely nothing like Giannis of last season and early season Giannis was playing basically exactly the same as Giannis of last, if not having an even larger role. For instance one big note is him having the ball. "Free Giannis" that led to us being good had 8.3 assists per 100 possession and 4.4 turnovers with Dame, this season was at 8 and 4.4. Since Dame went out this season Giannis has raised that to 12.2 and 3.1. You can definitely argue that Giannis playmaking is something that is a positive and something that we should have went more heavily even with Dame but the difference from last season to this with Dame was basically nothing.

Pace, holding the ball, etc is always brought up with Dame. You don't want to use usage, sure. They're similar to the point of it being almost inconsequential but Dames seconds per touch and dribbles per touch are down from last season. 7.4 time of possession, 5.2 seconds per touch, 4.8 dribbles per touch compared to last season 7.4, 5.6, 5.1. Conversely "free Giannis" (4.7, 3.5, 2.5) compared to "hand it over to Dame Giannis" (5.5, 4, 2.9) saw his time increase. Pace is lower without Dame, seconds per possession is higher (though basically the same). You can **** on usage now that it goes against your argument but Giannis with Dame last season was at 31.8% usage, this season with Dame he was at 36%. Dames lowered from 24.6 with Giannis to 24.1. Dame needing to "accept his role" and play off the ball is something that also just happened. Dame saw his catch and shoot shots raise by 25% (a pretty telling stat for his usage off the ball), while raising his shooting percentage on those to 41.5% from 32 last season.

We've seen some awesome stuff the past few weeks for sure, but that doesn't need to retcon what happened last season with Dame. We don't need to make up these fictional shifts of Dames game, Giannis' role, that went from him being the top on/off player on the team to where we are now.

Qualitatively, what this stretch has shown me cleaves a lot closer to what StJ is saying. The player movement offensively is just so much better without Dame. I actually don't think it's Dame's fault, though, at least not entirely. Some of it is coaching. The isos and the high pick and rolls are one thing, and some of that is Dame calling his own number, but the fact that there's nothing else going on off the ball while that stuff's happening? That's not Dame.

The biggest change is Giannis himself. Not just the way he's playing, but the way he's *talking* on the court. I have never seen him talking, directing traffic, sharing what he's seeing with the kind of assertiveness he's shown over the past couple weeks. For the first time in his career, he's leading by more than example. It's critical that he keeps this lack of deference, whether or not Dame comes back. This is a major, major development. I hope he recognizes it.

This gets at something we've observed for over a year now - that in trying to build a strong 2-man game between Giannis and Dame, Doc built a 2000s base underneath our offense. A big and a guard in the action - everyone else clear out. It's predictable and sludgy, and we've become reliant on our stars just beating a keyed up defense, or hitting catch and shoot threes at a high clip (while paradoxically only taking the 17th most threes per 100 possessions). That we've ended up with the 10th best offense is a feather in the cap of the players.

This version of heliocentric Giannis is a big development, and my hope is the coaching staff is seeing how valuable it is to have guys talking, moving, and getting into action earlier in the clock.

[Thunder Muscle]

We got 7 pm Friday and 8:30 pm Sunday for Games 3 and 4; should be two good crowds, even if the late start Sunday kinda sucks.

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Actually think it could go either way. Game 3 battling NFL Draft in GB and Sunday late start usually not desirable. Feel down 2-1 or 3-0 into Sunday, the ticket prices are going to be pretty cheap I would think.

[VooDoo7]

Sims might actually be useful against Indiana.

If Doc plays him.

[chonestown]

When it is pert near noon on Saturday that is when I will say it is Gain Time this is a reference to Gainbridge Field House which is where the game will be played and the game will be played at noon, feel free to use no big deal

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Exactly. I was really hoping to avoid a game next Sunday, especially in the evening. The game is at 6:30 here in San Diego. It's also a one year anniversary for my GF and I, and we booked a restaurant for 7 like a month ago! Ugh...

it's good to have these trying times early in a relationship. You need to know that she would not expect you to be in the delivery room if it's game 4 of the finals.