Teambuilding: How do you want to do it

[Infinity2152]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG in 2026? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'd add something to number 4 and say don't sell something it's going to cost you more to replace. 25 year old SG's scoring 20+ per game are not cheap unless they have major injury history.

[2weekswithpay]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

[Infinity2152]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

I think Coby's a mid-tier SG. With Matas and Giddey, I'm looking to upgrade center, SG, PF. We're drafting a rookie. Hopefully that covers one addition. Leaves 2 spots to upgrade. We're talking about getting a number 1 to add to them. That player ideally is a center/PF. So we have Giddey, Matas, Rookie, All-Star. Unless that All Star or Rookie is a SG, SG is the position I'm looking to upgrade. We can get all the picks we want, there are only 5 starting spots, and Giddey, Matas, Rookie hopefully lock up 3 of them. We have enough cap to add max/near max. That makes 4 spots locked up.

Don't want to waste Matas and our 2025 rookie cheap contract years by not getting good now. We trade Coby now, who is our starting SG in 2026?

Unrestricted Free agent SG's: Jordan Clarkson, Ayo Dosunmu, Kevin Huerter, CJ McCullom, Josh Okogie, Norman Powell, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simons. Coby White.

What's the point in trading him to replace him with a worse player or equal player on a probably worse value contract? Free agents are more likely to give their home teams a discount. For a future draft pick that could be late. That doesn't help Matas or Giddey or the Bulls much over the next few years.

Like the comparison with Herro, they're comparable. Would teams want Herro if he didn't cost two first round picks, just $30 mill expirings? Teams would jump on that right? It doesn't cost us two first round picks to get Coby, we already have him. And it's not a given he's getting $30 mill AAV. That's an assumption of a contract offer over a year from now. Right now we have him for the discount rate of $12 mill.

[jnrjr79]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG in 2026? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'd add something to number 4 and say don't sell something it's going to cost you more to replace. 25 year old SG's scoring 20+ per game are not cheap unless they have major injury history.

Just to clarify this - the bolded isn't accurate, and that's what makes the Coby situation tricky.

There is effectively no chance Coby signs an extension, since that's capped at 140% of current salary, so that option can be disregarded. That's essentially the MLE, and there'd be no reason for him to do that, since his worst-case scenario is playing out next season and signing somewhere for the MLE if there isn't a cap space team on the market that wants to sign him. He's got no real upside if he takes an extension, aside from protection against injury.

Absent an extension, the Bulls cannot sign Coby "over the cap," nor can any team that trades for Coby. After next season, Coby is a pure UFA, and any team signing him, including the Bulls, must have the space under the cap to do it. So, if you're trading for him, you have to have a plan to open up 2026 cap space to try to resign him (with no guarantees he'll stay). Otherwise, he's just a one-year rental and will garner a one-year rental trade price.

IMO, this is why I'm skeptical of the "trade Coby" proposals. Not many teams that would be interested in Coby are also likely to have 2026 cap space they would be able or willing to use to re-sign him. The Bulls actually do project to have that space (absent some significant moves this offseason), and could be in a relatively decent environment to sign him at a somewhat reasonable number, depending on how much other space is out there in the market. Of course, there is also the risk that some team does make him a big offer, and he can just take it and leave or leverage it against the Bulls. It'll be pretty high-stakes poker if that occurs.

[PJSteven22]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

Examples?

[Infinity2152]

Most of my thoughts are asset and archetype related.

1. If you aren't a contender or at least a top 6 seed, you should be trying to gain assets. Winning a title requires a great amount of luck, and you need to give yourself as many chances as possible at getting a high-impact star player through the draft or by trade.

2. Do not be overly invested in low-impact stars. Derozan, Ingram, and Dejounte Murray fit the bill. Good players, but they lack the complementary skills to elevate good teams, and they aren't offensive engines. The Hawks and Pelicans overvalued Murray's skill set and overpaid to get him. Both teams have suffered setbacks by trading for him.

3. The NBA changes fast, and being slow to recognize these changes is costly. Lavine could've been traded for value in the summer of 2023, but AK wanted too much at the time. A lot of people didn't want Austin Reaves as the main return in a Lavine trade a year ago. I don't think Reaves was ever available, but the 2nd apron made Reaves a more valuable asset last season, and fans didn't realize this.

4. Don't overpay for something you can find elsewhere. This is related to the Bridges trade and maybe Coby's future as a Bull. The 5 FRPs for Bridges was an overpay at the time, but worth it to put the Knicks on the same level as the Celtics. It didn't, and this season, you had DFS traded for 3 seconds, Deandre Hunter traded for 3 seconds, and Avdija traded for 2 firsts + 2 seconds.

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG in 2026? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'd add something to number 4 and say don't sell something it's going to cost you more to replace. 25 year old SG's scoring 20+ per game are not cheap unless they have major injury history.

Just to clarify this - the bolded isn't accurate, and that's what makes the Coby situation tricky.

There is effectively no chance Coby signs an extension, since that's capped at 140% of current salary, so that option can be disregarded. That's essentially the MLE, and there'd be no reason for him to do that, since his worst-case scenario is playing out next season and signing somewhere for the MLE if there isn't a cap space team on the market that wants to sign him. He's got no real upside if he takes an extension, aside from protection against injury.

Absent an extension, the Bulls cannot sign Coby "over the cap," nor can any team that trades for Coby. After next season, Coby is a pure UFA, and any team signing him, including the Bulls, must have the space under the cap to do it. So, if you're trading for him, you have to have a plan to open up 2026 cap space to try to resign him (with no guarantees he'll stay). Otherwise, he's just a one-year rental and will garner a one-year rental trade price.

IMO, this is why I'm skeptical of the "trade Coby" proposals. Not many teams that would be interested in Coby are also likely to have 2026 cap space they would be able or willing to use to re-sign him. The Bulls actually do project to have that space (absent some significant moves this offseason), and could be in a relatively decent environment to sign him at a somewhat reasonable number, depending on how much other space is out there in the market. Of course, there is also the risk that some team does make him a big offer, and he can just take it and leave or leverage it against the Bulls. It'll be pretty high-stakes poker if that occurs.

We have a different idea of unlikely vs no chance. Just read an article that says if the league average compensation level becomes $15 mill this summer, and the Bulls offer White 140% off that number, Bulls could offer him starting at $21 mill a year. That's less than $30 mill, true. What's Coby's minimum contract offer value if he misses half the season, or has a bad season? $15-20 mill? There's security in signing an extension. If it's true they can offer him $21 mill, that might be close enough to make him consider the security. Don't know what the total would be factoring in yearly increase, but likely more than he's made his entire career regardless of catastrophic injury. He's seen it happen with Ball. Yes, he's more likely to bet on himself, but he's gambling with $85+ mill guaranteed if they offer it and he turns it down. Could end up making zero dollars in 2026.

And you're right about the over the cap, my mistake. I was thinking about Bird rights. Is his cap hold $30 million dollars or more? We're at about $83 mill that summer, with Giddey having signed a $30 mill contract and paying everybody else. More than enough space to accommodate Coby and a big free agent signing/trade.

[2weekswithpay]

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

Examples?

Norm Powell and Sexton stand out among the 2026 free agents, and Donte DiVincenzo is a similarly paid option with worse offense and better defense. Powell's age might keep his value low, Donte shouldn't cost that much, and Sexton has to deal with Ainge's tank shenanigans.

Spoiler:

Just an example, but if the Wolves were to offer DDV, Detroit's 2025 FRP (#17), and Terrence Shannon for Coby. I'd take this deal.

Ultimately, my mindset is that volume scoring guards that don't defend or pass at a high level aren't keepers. Zach fit the bill, and Coby replaced his offensive production at a third of the price. Coby improved, but what is the upside in these players? How many of them become anything other than fringe All-Stars? Kyrie comes to mind, but he's quite gifted as a scorer, and there's Jamal Murray, who isn't too popular right now.

[2weekswithpay]

Like this. Of the current Bulls, the only ones I'd be hesitant to trade is Giddey and Matas. I'd trade Coby in a heartbeat for an upgrade at SG or center but it would have to be significant. The reasons I'm hesitant to trade Coby is more complicated than just Coby as a player or the forever starter for this team.

Like you said, the NBA changes fast. The ability to re-sign Coby over the cap is an asset. The possibility that he signs an extension still exist, and he's capped well below $30 mill with that. Even without that, it's not guaranteed he gets that in free agency. If we need to use him a superstar trade, let's go! I'd be fine with Huerter for a year, but who's going to be our SG? We're creating a hole where we already have a pretty good player, imo. If a better replacement comes available thru trade or free agency, move him then.

Also don't think somebody trades us 2 unprotected firsts and expiring's for Coby as a $12 mill expiring heading into unrestricted free agency. A 25 yr old Coby locked up at market rate for the next 4 years should have way more value to an interested party.

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

I think Coby's a mid-tier SG. With Matas and Giddey, I'm looking to upgrade center, SG, PF. We're drafting a rookie. Hopefully that covers one addition. Leaves 2 spots to upgrade. We're talking about getting a number 1 to add to them. That player ideally is a center/PF. So we have Giddey, Matas, Rookie, All-Star. Unless that All Star or Rookie is a SG, SG is the position I'm looking to upgrade. We can get all the picks we want, there are only 5 starting spots, and Giddey, Matas, Rookie hopefully lock up 3 of them. We have enough cap to add max/near max. That makes 4 spots locked up.

Don't want to waste Matas and our 2025 rookie cheap contract years by not getting good now. We trade Coby now, who is our starting SG in 2026?

Unrestricted Free agent SG's: Jordan Clarkson, Ayo Dosunmu, Kevin Huerter, CJ McCullom, Josh Okogie, Norman Powell, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simons. Coby White.

What's the point in trading him to replace him with a worse player or equal player on a probably worse value contract? Free agents are more likely to give their home teams a discount. For a future draft pick that could be late. That doesn't help Matas or Giddey or the Bulls much over the next few years.

Like the comparison with Herro, they're comparable. Would teams want Herro if he didn't cost two first round picks, just $30 mill expirings? Teams would jump on that right? It doesn't cost us two first round picks to get Coby, we already have him. And it's not a given he's getting $30 mill AAV. That's an assumption of a contract offer over a year from now. Right now we have him for the discount rate of $12 mill.

I don't think Coby on a 30M AAV contract is great value. Not a bad contract, but not great either.

Norm Powell or Collin Sexton at 20M AAV + 1 first-round pick + additional assets (seconds/young players) or Coby at 30M AAV.

We would be getting a worse player but more draft assets to address things we need or for a trade. You don't have to agree, but this is my view on it.


I don't think Coby will be taking any discounts as he has no reason to do so.

We're on different timelines. I don't believe this team is that good right now, and I am in no rush to improve quickly.

[sco]

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

Examples?

Norm Powell and Sexton stand out among the 2026 free agents, and Donte DiVincenzo is a similarly paid option with worse offense and better defense. Powell's age might keep his value low, Donte shouldn't cost that much, and Sexton has to deal with Ainge's tank shenanigans.

Spoiler:

Just an example, but if the Wolves were to offer DDV, Detroit's 2025 FRP (#17), and Terrence Shannon for Coby. I'd take this deal.

Ultimately, my mindset is that volume scoring guards that don't defend or pass at a high level aren't keepers. Zach fit the bill, and Coby replaced his offensive production at a third of the price. Coby improved, but what is the upside in these players? How many of them become anything other than fringe All-Stars? Kyrie comes to mind, but he's quite gifted as a scorer, and there's Jamal Murray, who isn't too popular right now.

I love this take. Nicely done!

[Infinity2152]

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

I think Coby's a mid-tier SG. With Matas and Giddey, I'm looking to upgrade center, SG, PF. We're drafting a rookie. Hopefully that covers one addition. Leaves 2 spots to upgrade. We're talking about getting a number 1 to add to them. That player ideally is a center/PF. So we have Giddey, Matas, Rookie, All-Star. Unless that All Star or Rookie is a SG, SG is the position I'm looking to upgrade. We can get all the picks we want, there are only 5 starting spots, and Giddey, Matas, Rookie hopefully lock up 3 of them. We have enough cap to add max/near max. That makes 4 spots locked up.

Don't want to waste Matas and our 2025 rookie cheap contract years by not getting good now. We trade Coby now, who is our starting SG in 2026?

Unrestricted Free agent SG's: Jordan Clarkson, Ayo Dosunmu, Kevin Huerter, CJ McCullom, Josh Okogie, Norman Powell, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simons. Coby White.

What's the point in trading him to replace him with a worse player or equal player on a probably worse value contract? Free agents are more likely to give their home teams a discount. For a future draft pick that could be late. That doesn't help Matas or Giddey or the Bulls much over the next few years.

Like the comparison with Herro, they're comparable. Would teams want Herro if he didn't cost two first round picks, just $30 mill expirings? Teams would jump on that right? It doesn't cost us two first round picks to get Coby, we already have him. And it's not a given he's getting $30 mill AAV. That's an assumption of a contract offer over a year from now. Right now we have him for the discount rate of $12 mill.

I don't think Coby on a 30M AAV contract is great value. Not a bad contract, but not great either.

Norm Powell or Collin Sexton at 20M AAV + 1 first-round pick + additional assets (seconds/young players) or Coby at 30M AAV.

We would be getting a worse player but more draft assets to address things we need or for a trade. You don't have to agree, but this is my view on it.


I don't think Coby will be taking any discounts as he has no reason to do so.

We're on different timelines. I don't believe this team is that good right now, and I am in no rush to improve quickly.

I'd take Sexton for $20 mill too. Don't think he gets $20 mill as a departing free agent and Coby gets $30 mill for staying at home. I'd love Divencenzo and an unprotected first plus a young player for Coby too. There are a lot of teams with cap space in 2026, not likely we're getting a bargain deal for Sexton, if we don't lose out to another team. Why are you so sure he will get offered less than Coby? Powell is in his thirties already, not signing him as my starter in a year.

Staying with the same team combined with the ability to offer an extra year are reasons to give the team a discount. What other reason do players have when they do it? Or do players just not do it? Never said it was likely, but if offered the same money by a new team and your current team, imagine a lot of players would choose to stay home. He's been here longer than anybody, his whole career. An extra mil or two a year might not be enough to make you want to uproot your family, find a new spot, join a new team, etc.

I'd have to see this deal where we get offered multiple firsts and assets for expiring Coby, we keep throwing around first round pick like they all have the same value. I was assuming much lower value assets than Divencenzo when people are saying 2 firsts.

Agree with the timeline difference. I think the team is good after next summer. I'm looking forward to a great 2026 season.

Good to hear other sides. Argued all summer with people who said Vuc was a terrible shooter and he'd shoot terrible this year. Months arguing over whether Giddey is an actual starter or worth more than $15 mill. Now Kevin Huerter is a B version of Alex Caruso on defense. Take fans player evaluations with a grain of salt, but good to share info and discuss plans. Respect everyone's opinion, I think Coby's a solid mid-tier starting SG. Anybody who doesn't, easy to see why they want him gone. Not worried about paying a 25 yr old market rate if I think he's solid, he won't receive a contract offer for a year.

[drosestruts]

I don't really think there's any sort of championship blueprint you can follow to gurantee to build a contender.

It's more tenants of teambuilding than anything else:


1. Try to be good
Sounds simply but many teams attempt to get lucky by hoping they can take one step back to vault two steps forward. This rarely if ever works. Most of the time if you get lucky and actually draft someone worthwhile they simply end up requesting out after you've failed to build around them.


2. Stay flexible
The idea of 'untouchables' really shouldn't exist, ever. If a good deal comes along, take it.

3. Fit matters
I think we've frusraingly in past versions of this team actually acquired decent talent (LaVine, DeRozan, Vuc or Butler/Wade/Gasol/Rondo), but the fit has been awful. A team that fits together can be more than the sum of its parts.

4. Collect assets
I personally can't stomach tanking, but I'd love to have some other schlubs picks. I can root for other teams to lose all day. I think individual picks themselves are overrated. Multiple attempts in the crap shoot that is the lotter have value.

[Infinity2152]

I don't really think there's any sort of championship blueprint you can follow to gurantee to build a contender.

It's more tenants of teambuilding than anything else:


1. Try to be good
Sounds simply but many teams attempt to get lucky by hoping they can take one step back to vault two steps forward. This rarely if ever works. Most of the time if you get lucky and actually draft someone worthwhile they simply end up requesting out after you've failed to build around them.


2. Stay flexible
The idea of 'untouchables' really shouldn't exist, ever. If a good deal comes along, take it.

3. Fit matters
I think we've frusraingly in past versions of this team actually acquired decent talent (LaVine, DeRozan, Vuc or Butler/Wade/Gasol/Rondo), but the fit has been awful. A team that fits together can be more than the sum of its parts.

4. Collect assets
I personally can't stomach tanking, but I'd love to have some other schlubs picks. I can root for other teams to lose all day. I think individual picks themselves are overrated. Multiple attempts in the crap shoot that is the lotter have value.

This was the general thought. Tons of ways to get to that team. I'm with you on not valuing picks as much more than minimal trade assets. With trades including 3, 4, 5 picks plus protections, they've really been devalued. We've had a Portland first forever that hasn't earned us a dime yet.

Want a shot at the lottery every year, why I'd try to have at least one pick from another team every year, but I'm hoping for role player, maybe starter in the draft. Star, superstar, franchise player I'm hunting in FA and trade. If I luck up and find a star in the draft, great. If I don't they're getting rookie scale.

Hate when teams are super dependent on a number 1. Space the money and talent out. Continuity goes with fit. You can't just keep swapping the whole team every two years. Understand you're going to have multiple flawed starters. Most teams will have 2-3 20 scorers or two-way players starting at most. Find the pieces that improve and compensate for what you have and build a strong team.

If you don't have a number 1 already, the players on a team winning 45 games are probably worth more in trade than the players on a team winning 25.

[2weekswithpay]

I think Coby's a mid-tier SG. With Matas and Giddey, I'm looking to upgrade center, SG, PF. We're drafting a rookie. Hopefully that covers one addition. Leaves 2 spots to upgrade. We're talking about getting a number 1 to add to them. That player ideally is a center/PF. So we have Giddey, Matas, Rookie, All-Star. Unless that All Star or Rookie is a SG, SG is the position I'm looking to upgrade. We can get all the picks we want, there are only 5 starting spots, and Giddey, Matas, Rookie hopefully lock up 3 of them. We have enough cap to add max/near max. That makes 4 spots locked up.

Don't want to waste Matas and our 2025 rookie cheap contract years by not getting good now. We trade Coby now, who is our starting SG in 2026?

Unrestricted Free agent SG's: Jordan Clarkson, Ayo Dosunmu, Kevin Huerter, CJ McCullom, Josh Okogie, Norman Powell, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simons. Coby White.

What's the point in trading him to replace him with a worse player or equal player on a probably worse value contract? Free agents are more likely to give their home teams a discount. For a future draft pick that could be late. That doesn't help Matas or Giddey or the Bulls much over the next few years.

Like the comparison with Herro, they're comparable. Would teams want Herro if he didn't cost two first round picks, just $30 mill expirings? Teams would jump on that right? It doesn't cost us two first round picks to get Coby, we already have him. And it's not a given he's getting $30 mill AAV. That's an assumption of a contract offer over a year from now. Right now we have him for the discount rate of $12 mill.

I don't think Coby on a 30M AAV contract is great value. Not a bad contract, but not great either.

Norm Powell or Collin Sexton at 20M AAV + 1 first-round pick + additional assets (seconds/young players) or Coby at 30M AAV.

We would be getting a worse player but more draft assets to address things we need or for a trade. You don't have to agree, but this is my view on it.


I don't think Coby will be taking any discounts as he has no reason to do so.

We're on different timelines. I don't believe this team is that good right now, and I am in no rush to improve quickly.

I'd take Sexton for $20 mill too. Don't think he gets $20 mill as a departing free agent and Coby gets $30 mill for staying at home. I'd love Divencenzo and an unprotected first plus a young player for Coby too. There are a lot of teams with cap space in 2026, not likely we're getting a bargain deal for Sexton, if we don't lose out to another team. Why are you so sure he will get offered less than Coby? Powell is in his thirties already, not signing him as my starter in a year.

Staying with the same team combined with the ability to offer an extra year are reasons to give the team a discount. What other reason do players have when they do it? Or do players just not do it? Never said it was likely, but if offered the same money by a new team and your current team, imagine a lot of players would choose to stay home. He's been here longer than anybody, his whole career. An extra mil or two a year might not be enough to make you want to uproot your family, find a new spot, join a new team, etc.

I'd have to see this deal where we get offered multiple firsts and assets for expiring Coby, we keep throwing around first round pick like they all have the same value. I was assuming much lower value assets than Divencenzo when people are saying 2 firsts.

Agree with the timeline difference. I think the team is good after next summer. I'm looking forward to a great 2026 season.

Good to hear other sides. Argued all summer with people who said Vuc was a terrible shooter and he'd shoot terrible this year. Months arguing over whether Giddey is an actual starter or worth more than $15 mill. Now Kevin Huerter is a B version of Alex Caruso on defense. Take fans player evaluations with a grain of salt, but good to share info and discuss plans. Respect everyone's opinion, I think Coby's a solid mid-tier starting SG.

Perception. Sexton plays on a tanking Jazz team that intentionally sat healthy players. Ainge sabotaged the roster, and it's hard to perform under these circumstances, which affects player value. I don't think anyone views Sexton as a difference-maker these days. Compared to Coby, who was second in MIP voting last season and finished this season strong, winning player of the month. Exaggerating, but Coby is a future star again after most fans were disappointed with him for the first 50 games. I don't think anyone views Coby and Sexton as players of similar caliber right now.

Yeah, I get the reason, I just don't believe he'll do it. Herb Jones took a below-market value deal, but he benefited from it because the Pelicans declined his team option at 1.8M to give him an extension at 13.4M AAV. Malik Monk took less than people thought he was worth, but Fox was his college teammate and one of the reasons he went to Sacramento. Paul George picked Philly over LA because the Clippers wouldn't offer him the 4th year on an extension, and George is from LA. I don't think Coby would leave over 1-2M, but I also don't think this team will hardball him over a small amount like that. This might be Coby's best chance at getting paid as well.

[Dan Z]

I'm not that high on Coby. I don't need a positional upgrade to trade him, I'd be fine with a first-round pick plus assets. Volume scoring guards that don't defend or playmake at an above-average level aren't huge difference makers and tend to be overvalued by fans, at least IMO.

I don't think having Coby signed to a market-rate contract helps his value much. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't give up two firsts for Tyler Herro at 30M AAV, and I have a similar mindset about Coby. I think there are better, cost-effective options out there.

I think Coby's a mid-tier SG. With Matas and Giddey, I'm looking to upgrade center, SG, PF. We're drafting a rookie. Hopefully that covers one addition. Leaves 2 spots to upgrade. We're talking about getting a number 1 to add to them. That player ideally is a center/PF. So we have Giddey, Matas, Rookie, All-Star. Unless that All Star or Rookie is a SG, SG is the position I'm looking to upgrade. We can get all the picks we want, there are only 5 starting spots, and Giddey, Matas, Rookie hopefully lock up 3 of them. We have enough cap to add max/near max. That makes 4 spots locked up.

Don't want to waste Matas and our 2025 rookie cheap contract years by not getting good now. We trade Coby now, who is our starting SG in 2026?

Unrestricted Free agent SG's: Jordan Clarkson, Ayo Dosunmu, Kevin Huerter, CJ McCullom, Josh Okogie, Norman Powell, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simons. Coby White.

What's the point in trading him to replace him with a worse player or equal player on a probably worse value contract? Free agents are more likely to give their home teams a discount. For a future draft pick that could be late. That doesn't help Matas or Giddey or the Bulls much over the next few years.

Like the comparison with Herro, they're comparable. Would teams want Herro if he didn't cost two first round picks, just $30 mill expirings? Teams would jump on that right? It doesn't cost us two first round picks to get Coby, we already have him. And it's not a given he's getting $30 mill AAV. That's an assumption of a contract offer over a year from now. Right now we have him for the discount rate of $12 mill.

I don't think Coby on a 30M AAV contract is great value. Not a bad contract, but not great either.

Norm Powell or Collin Sexton at 20M AAV + 1 first-round pick + additional assets (seconds/young players) or Coby at 30M AAV.

We would be getting a worse player but more draft assets to address things we need or for a trade. You don't have to agree, but this is my view on it.


I don't think Coby will be taking any discounts as he has no reason to do so.

We're on different timelines. I don't believe this team is that good right now, and I am in no rush to improve quickly.

Why will the Bulls get a first round pick + additional assets in your examples? Are you suggesting that the Clippers or Jazz trade picks/assets/Sexton or Powell for Coby?

[mack2354]

Coby White - Below average defender
Giddey - Below average defender
Huerter - Below average defender
Matas - Average/Above average defender
Vuc - Below average defender

We will never be a good team until we get some better defenders / 2 way players. Matas is a keeper and Giddey may be viewed as one since he's a triple double machine. At least 2 of those other positions need to be upgraded. My guess is that Ayo or Ball take Huerter's spot for defense so that leaves White or Vuc that need to be traded next season. Unfortunately I have zero faith in the front office to move either. Especially if we luck into a high draft pick in the lottery. They'd just run it back.

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[Jcool0]

Coby White - Below average defender
Giddey - Below average defender
Huerter - Below average defender
Matas - Average/Above average defender
Vuc - Below average defender

We will never be a good team until we get some better defenders / 2 way players. Matas is a keeper and Giddey may be viewed as one since he's a triple double machine. At least 2 of those other positions need to be upgraded. My guess is that Ayo or Ball take Huerter's spot for defense so that leaves White or Vuc that need to be traded next season. Unfortunately I have zero faith in the front office to move either. Especially if we luck into a high draft pick in the lottery. They'd just run it back.

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Lol you think Vuc & Coby are below average????

[ScrantonBulls]

Okay. Let's try this again. I didn't say make a trade every year to get another teams picks. For instance we do a trade right now with Coby and get two firsts. Now we have two firsts. We trade down in this draft and pick up an extra first. Now we have three firsts. We trade our 2027 pick to somebody for their 2028 pick in a Vucevic trade. We've picked up and swapped a lot of firsts already. We can use our own firsts in trade. The idea is to believe in your own team to get better every year more than other teams and stack picks from other teams. Plan to win deals instead of losing them. There are teams swapping tons of picks every single year, the whole it doesn't happen often is just old. It happens when GM's make it happen. Jazz had tons of picks. Spurs had multiple picks. Nets have tons of picks. Suns picked up 3 for 1. We can do it too.

Sure the Bulls could trade Coby for picks and maybe get a pick by trading down, but I'm not sure about the other part of your idea. A team will trade an unknown 2027 pick for an unknown 2028 pick?

Yes, teams trade picks all the time. The reason why Utah has extra picks is because they traded Mitchell and Gobert for them. The Spurs traded Dejounte Murray for picks and made other moves such as Dillingham for a future pick, S&T DDR for a pick, etc. OKC got picks by trading Paul George and Chris Paul. Over the years they've also taken on bad contracts in order to draft picks in the process.

The Bulls could try to do that, but don't have a Murray, Mitchell or Gobert unless you're counting Coby as one. I doubt he has the same value as those three did (at the time they were traded...I guess you could make an argument for Murray, but I'm not sure I'd agree). They could also take on bad contracts to acquire picks too. However, AK doesn't seem interested in picks and I don't see him doing any of this.

This was more a long-term plan, long term guidelines. Coby was an example. The Bulls right now? Keep this year's pick. I think the Bulls with Coby, Giddey, Matas, 2025 rookie and a star/superstar is really a solid core. This season if the right star becomes available, it's the perfect time to pounce for several reasons. We'll have already re-signed Giddey, Matas and 2025 rookie are on the rookie scale and Coby's still at $12 mill. Perfectly prepared to trade the 2027 pick and 2029 pick to get that player. We have expiring contracts plus Pat, enough to take a huge contract. We can fill out the roster then re-sign Coby over the cap. Perfectly fine paying tax for that team.

Not a lot of players to choose from to target, especially before knowing who we draft this year. Who's a superstar who's available at all and makes sense? Zion. Would take a shot at KD if it didn't cost too much. I'm testing the waters and starting conversations about Giannis quietly with the GM. But never thought Luka would be traded and the Heat started the season saying they weren't trading Butler. We talk about getting a number 1, who are the true number 1's in the league? Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, mitchell, Leonard, SGA. Most are too old and/or completely unavailable.

I think I'd try to take a serious shot at Anthony Edwards. Fine sending Coby out in that trade, I'm sure they say no, but I'm in their ear so much if they even think about it, I'm the first call. As long as I keep Giddey and Matas, we'll work the rest out. We have a strong trade relationship with them and he could demand out at some point. Maybe as soon as this year.

In what world do the Bulls have the pieces to trade for a superstar? That's some dreamland stuff. Teams that rebuilt the right way (Rockets, etc) have way more trade pieces than us.

[mack2354]

Coby White - Below average defender
Giddey - Below average defender
Huerter - Below average defender
Matas - Average/Above average defender
Vuc - Below average defender

We will never be a good team until we get some better defenders / 2 way players. Matas is a keeper and Giddey may be viewed as one since he's a triple double machine. At least 2 of those other positions need to be upgraded. My guess is that Ayo or Ball take Huerter's spot for defense so that leaves White or Vuc that need to be traded next season. Unfortunately I have zero faith in the front office to move either. Especially if we luck into a high draft pick in the lottery. They'd just run it back.

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Lol you think Vuc & Coby are below average????

I was trying to be nice. They are horrible defenders.

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[Dan Z]

Sure the Bulls could trade Coby for picks and maybe get a pick by trading down, but I'm not sure about the other part of your idea. A team will trade an unknown 2027 pick for an unknown 2028 pick?

Yes, teams trade picks all the time. The reason why Utah has extra picks is because they traded Mitchell and Gobert for them. The Spurs traded Dejounte Murray for picks and made other moves such as Dillingham for a future pick, S&T DDR for a pick, etc. OKC got picks by trading Paul George and Chris Paul. Over the years they've also taken on bad contracts in order to draft picks in the process.

The Bulls could try to do that, but don't have a Murray, Mitchell or Gobert unless you're counting Coby as one. I doubt he has the same value as those three did (at the time they were traded...I guess you could make an argument for Murray, but I'm not sure I'd agree). They could also take on bad contracts to acquire picks too. However, AK doesn't seem interested in picks and I don't see him doing any of this.

This was more a long-term plan, long term guidelines. Coby was an example. The Bulls right now? Keep this year's pick. I think the Bulls with Coby, Giddey, Matas, 2025 rookie and a star/superstar is really a solid core. This season if the right star becomes available, it's the perfect time to pounce for several reasons. We'll have already re-signed Giddey, Matas and 2025 rookie are on the rookie scale and Coby's still at $12 mill. Perfectly prepared to trade the 2027 pick and 2029 pick to get that player. We have expiring contracts plus Pat, enough to take a huge contract. We can fill out the roster then re-sign Coby over the cap. Perfectly fine paying tax for that team.

Not a lot of players to choose from to target, especially before knowing who we draft this year. Who's a superstar who's available at all and makes sense? Zion. Would take a shot at KD if it didn't cost too much. I'm testing the waters and starting conversations about Giannis quietly with the GM. But never thought Luka would be traded and the Heat started the season saying they weren't trading Butler. We talk about getting a number 1, who are the true number 1's in the league? Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, mitchell, Leonard, SGA. Most are too old and/or completely unavailable.

I think I'd try to take a serious shot at Anthony Edwards. Fine sending Coby out in that trade, I'm sure they say no, but I'm in their ear so much if they even think about it, I'm the first call. As long as I keep Giddey and Matas, we'll work the rest out. We have a strong trade relationship with them and he could demand out at some point. Maybe as soon as this year.

In what world do the Bulls have the pieces to trade for a superstar? That's some dreamland stuff. Teams that rebuilt the right way (Rockets, etc) have way more trade pieces than us.

You'd think that a smart GM would look at what the Rockets did and go "I should try that...".

[2weekswithpay]

I don't think Coby on a 30M AAV contract is great value. Not a bad contract, but not great either.

Norm Powell or Collin Sexton at 20M AAV + 1 first-round pick + additional assets (seconds/young players) or Coby at 30M AAV.

We would be getting a worse player but more draft assets to address things we need or for a trade. You don't have to agree, but this is my view on it.


I don't think Coby will be taking any discounts as he has no reason to do so.

We're on different timelines. I don't believe this team is that good right now, and I am in no rush to improve quickly.

Why will the Bulls get a first round pick + additional assets in your examples? Are you suggesting that the Clippers or Jazz trade picks/assets/Sexton or Powell for Coby?

I was thinking of getting them as free agents. We'd trade Coby for matching salary plus assets and address any scoring issue at a later date. Volume scoring is important, but one-way volume scorers are readily available.

I'm not asking for as much as others are here.

Norm Powell + OKC's 2025 FRP (#30)

CJ McCollum + NOP's 2026 FRP

Fine deals to me, I'd prefer more picks, but this team isn't going to tank, so that's not realistic.