The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 1

[Ghost of Kleine]

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First Billups and now Green! I really liked Willie Green for our coach too!

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Only if.......................................

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[bullsaficianado]

He was punishing us in the post this year. The Suns need someone that can score in the post like that.

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[Ghost of Kleine]

He was punishing us in the post this year. The Suns need someone that can score in the post like that.

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Yes! And Booker could easily play off of him due to the ridiculous gravity and rim pressure he creates! We haveeen't had any of whast he brings in quite a while.

[bullsaficianado]

Maybe a 3 team deal with Rockets, Pelicans and Suns. I just hope we get some picks back for taking on Zion.

The good news is if Rockets trade for Durant Udoka might be available a year from now.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Hassan Whiteside on a vet min "prove it deal anyone?? Could be a decent Plumlee replacement?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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IF they get eliminated, this could be good for their overall pressure and level of desperation to add KD??

[Ghost of Kleine]

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So KD to OKC! And then Beal/ CLE 27' 1st to Charlotte for Nurkic (19 million expiring)/ G Williams/ Okogie?
LOL at bringing Nurkic back too just to let him expire or buy him out!

[BobbieL]

Maybe a 3 team deal with Rockets, Pelicans and Suns. I just hope we get some picks back for taking on Zion.

The good news is if Rockets trade for Durant Udoka might be available a year from now.

Forget Zion

Get those Rockets picks back and young talent

Ishbia - please be smart just once?!?! Once

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This article has a really great breakdown of the reality of our Beal situation, and hits on a lot of the points that I've discussed here (pros and Cons) and have argued with Frank over, too! pay close attention to the holding onto him for one more year option breakdown!

[wheezy]

He was punishing us in the post this year. The Suns need someone that can score in the post like that.

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Richards looks so lost on defense here....

[lilfishi22]

Absolutely valid point! But again, much of the implied risk should be offset by the fact that, unlike Beal, his issues are more of the conditioning nature than chronic injuries due to wear and tear. But moreover, the implied risk is really mitigated by the fact that none of his remaining three years are guaranteed at all. His 3-year extension is fully non-guaranteed. So unlike Beal, any team trading for him can waive him at no incurred additional cost beyond what was given up initially in trade. So if he misses his target weight in weigh-ins, and/or misses significant playing time per his included provisions, he can be waived without any financial detriment. And he doesn't have any NTC.

This dramatically mitigates the implied risks surrounding him for any receiving team! And with Ishbia not worrying about money, He can assign a fitness/ accountability team to monitor him on a regular basis to ensure accountability towards ideal conditioning! And Zion himself, being aware of the very serious provisions and optics around him without having any contractual guarantees going forward, should be very motivated to prove he still deserves a place as an NBA max player. These are conditions that, if utilized correctly, should illicit a higher probability for success than what he had in New Orleans.

He'll also be very motivated to prove the doubters wrong and ensure his next contract rather than possibly finding his way out of the NBA and being labeled a bust! I look at this as a kind of cyclical reiteration of the Barkley trade that elevated our team, surprisingly, to the finals. And see Zion in a somewhat similar archetype and situation as Charles Barkley himself, possibly.

I don't think it's just conditioning. It's more than that. Pre-draft there were serious concerns about his long term health not just because of his weight but just his build, the immense level of athleticism on his joints and of course, the conditioning issues he's had which have already done damage to his body. To suggest it's largely conditioning thing and there isn't serious wear and tear concerns with Zion would not be correct.

And you're right, there are some risk mitigation due to the nature of Zion's contract but even if he was healthy for most of the way through, he'd have another 3 seasons of additional wear and tear on his body and whatever injuries he may pick up at the end of that period and what then? I just don't see a long term player in Zion even if he was somewhat healthy. And if he's not unexpectedly injured for some period of time that would mean he's remaining years aren't guaranteed, then you'd have nothing to show for a KD trade.

I'd rather just get some picks and maybe a young guy with some potential over Zion.

Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And Yes! his contract would still be unguaranteed for his remaining Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And YES, remaining years would still be fully non-guaranteed!

AI Overview

Zion Williamson's contract with the New Orleans Pelicans is a five-year, $197.2 million extension, which includes a games-played trigger that can impact the guarantee of the final three years. The final three years are no longer guaranteed if he fails to play a certain number of games, as he did in the 2022-23 season, which triggered the clause. This means the Pelicans could waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial repercussions.

Here's a breakdown of the contract:
- Signed: July 2022
- Years: Five years
- Total Value: $197.2 million
- Guarantee: The final three years are no longer fully guaranteed due to a games-played clause triggered by his performance in the 2022-23 season.

Options for Pelicans:

Waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial penalties.
**Guarantee his 2025-26 salary by playing in at least 61 games during the 2024-25 season. (He's already failed that stipulation)!!
Weight Clause: The contract also includes a weight clause that could further reduce guaranteed money.

So he could be waived at any point without penalty or additional cost to the team, due to triggering that stipulation! So at best we'll have added an "alpha' tier 1A option for Booker to play off of that would answer our critical needs for an elite athletic, physically dominant, dynamic, still young franchise player that could help us remain competitive and likely (if done correctly change the trajectory of our future! And at worst, if he can't get it together, we could just waive him for 40+ million in cap savings that we could then spread on different players, or trade him on the basis of being a low-risk super high potential impact contributor that would still be non-guaranteed for any receiving team!

And there will be multiple teams willing to talk themselves into his super high potential due to him only being 24 years old, and the financial risk being minimal at best due to his contract provisions! This is one of those very rare buy-low scenarios for a legit franchise-altering talent in which, if he were at all healthy and didn't carry these risks, we'd have no hope of getting him! Our future is already pretty bleak! And this is a very rare opportunity to drastically change our competitive trajectory and future calculus. But even if it somehow didn't work out, his non-guaranteed contract means that an unfavorable outcome wouldn't hurt us much if at all. And wouldn't really make our situation that much worse.

As the saying goes............................................... " The juice is worth the squeeze"!!
This could end up being our Barkley 2.0 type energizing trade. And Zion, knowing well the conditions of his contract being non-guaranteed and the optics involved with his failures, He'd come in more motivated than ever to prove he still belongs in the NBA and is still an elite player! All things that bode well for us, honestly!

The only pro-Zion argument I can understand is to stay competitive with no regard for the future. Other than that, I just find picks and prospects now far more appealing than a few years (and potentially less if he's not healthy) of an experiment. I also think if he fails to stay healthy with us or doesn't impact our competitiveness as much as we hope, the value we'll get from a subsequent Zion trade is very likely going to fall off a cliff. He would have then failed at New Orleans and Phoenix and while there may be teams that could talk themselves into giving him a punt, they just aren't going to give up much for him and then once again, we would've paid a higher value than what we would get back in a trade later down the track. Also Zion is almost 25 now and if he was to be traded from the Suns in a year or two down the track, he'd be 26-27.

The way I see it, a KD trade that maximises future value now would be far better than trying to recoup value with Zion if that experiment fails.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I don't think it's just conditioning. It's more than that. Pre-draft there were serious concerns about his long term health not just because of his weight but just his build, the immense level of athleticism on his joints and of course, the conditioning issues he's had which have already done damage to his body. To suggest it's largely conditioning thing and there isn't serious wear and tear concerns with Zion would not be correct.

And you're right, there are some risk mitigation due to the nature of Zion's contract but even if he was healthy for most of the way through, he'd have another 3 seasons of additional wear and tear on his body and whatever injuries he may pick up at the end of that period and what then? I just don't see a long term player in Zion even if he was somewhat healthy. And if he's not unexpectedly injured for some period of time that would mean he's remaining years aren't guaranteed, then you'd have nothing to show for a KD trade.

I'd rather just get some picks and maybe a young guy with some potential over Zion.

Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And Yes! his contract would still be unguaranteed for his remaining Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And YES, remaining years would still be fully non-guaranteed!

AI Overview

Zion Williamson's contract with the New Orleans Pelicans is a five-year, $197.2 million extension, which includes a games-played trigger that can impact the guarantee of the final three years. The final three years are no longer guaranteed if he fails to play a certain number of games, as he did in the 2022-23 season, which triggered the clause. This means the Pelicans could waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial repercussions.

Here's a breakdown of the contract:
- Signed: July 2022
- Years: Five years
- Total Value: $197.2 million
- Guarantee: The final three years are no longer fully guaranteed due to a games-played clause triggered by his performance in the 2022-23 season.

Options for Pelicans:

Waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial penalties.
**Guarantee his 2025-26 salary by playing in at least 61 games during the 2024-25 season. (He's already failed that stipulation)!!
Weight Clause: The contract also includes a weight clause that could further reduce guaranteed money.

So he could be waived at any point without penalty or additional cost to the team, due to triggering that stipulation! So at best we'll have added an "alpha' tier 1A option for Booker to play off of that would answer our critical needs for an elite athletic, physically dominant, dynamic, still young franchise player that could help us remain competitive and likely (if done correctly change the trajectory of our future! And at worst, if he can't get it together, we could just waive him for 40+ million in cap savings that we could then spread on different players, or trade him on the basis of being a low-risk super high potential impact contributor that would still be non-guaranteed for any receiving team!

And there will be multiple teams willing to talk themselves into his super high potential due to him only being 24 years old, and the financial risk being minimal at best due to his contract provisions! This is one of those very rare buy-low scenarios for a legit franchise-altering talent in which, if he were at all healthy and didn't carry these risks, we'd have no hope of getting him! Our future is already pretty bleak! And this is a very rare opportunity to drastically change our competitive trajectory and future calculus. But even if it somehow didn't work out, his non-guaranteed contract means that an unfavorable outcome wouldn't hurt us much if at all. And wouldn't really make our situation that much worse.

As the saying goes............................................... " The juice is worth the squeeze"!!
This could end up being our Barkley 2.0 type energizing trade. And Zion, knowing well the conditions of his contract being non-guaranteed and the optics involved with his failures, He'd come in more motivated than ever to prove he still belongs in the NBA and is still an elite player! All things that bode well for us, honestly!

The only pro-Zion argument I can understand is to stay competitive with no regard for the future. Other than that, I just find picks and prospects now far more appealing than a few years (and potentially less if he's not healthy) of an experiment. I also think if he fails to stay healthy with us or doesn't impact our competitiveness as much as we hope, the value we'll get from a subsequent Zion trade is very likely going to fall off a cliff. He would have then failed at New Orleans and Phoenix and while there may be teams that could talk themselves into giving him a punt, they just aren't going to give up much for him and then once again, we would've paid a higher value than what we would get back in a trade later down the track. Also Zion is almost 25 now and if he was to be traded from the Suns in a year or two down the track, he'd be 26-27.

The way I see it, a KD trade that maximises future value now would be far better than trying to recoup value with Zion if that experiment fails.

Sure that's a fair perspective man. Although there are two important considerations here:

1st- Even at 26 or 27, Zion would just be entering his prime years, and could evolve in a multitude of ways that would sustain his value and trade interest. And depending upon the give up for him in buying low, and again, the basically nearly zero financial risk involved, the value gap still might end up being minimal at best!
2nd- The bulk of influence on our decision to trade KD for Zion or another package will be heavily predicated upon what level of value is offered by various teams. If the value from other teams is really solid, then I wouldn't lose sleep passing on Zion as a target, but if it ends up low ball and lousy, then eeff them all and give me Zion over a craptastic meediocre value outcome!

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[lilfishi22]

Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And Yes! his contract would still be unguaranteed for his remaining Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And YES, remaining years would still be fully non-guaranteed!



So he could be waived at any point without penalty or additional cost to the team, due to triggering that stipulation! So at best we'll have added an "alpha' tier 1A option for Booker to play off of that would answer our critical needs for an elite athletic, physically dominant, dynamic, still young franchise player that could help us remain competitive and likely (if done correctly change the trajectory of our future! And at worst, if he can't get it together, we could just waive him for 40+ million in cap savings that we could then spread on different players, or trade him on the basis of being a low-risk super high potential impact contributor that would still be non-guaranteed for any receiving team!

And there will be multiple teams willing to talk themselves into his super high potential due to him only being 24 years old, and the financial risk being minimal at best due to his contract provisions! This is one of those very rare buy-low scenarios for a legit franchise-altering talent in which, if he were at all healthy and didn't carry these risks, we'd have no hope of getting him! Our future is already pretty bleak! And this is a very rare opportunity to drastically change our competitive trajectory and future calculus. But even if it somehow didn't work out, his non-guaranteed contract means that an unfavorable outcome wouldn't hurt us much if at all. And wouldn't really make our situation that much worse.

As the saying goes............................................... " The juice is worth the squeeze"!!
This could end up being our Barkley 2.0 type energizing trade. And Zion, knowing well the conditions of his contract being non-guaranteed and the optics involved with his failures, He'd come in more motivated than ever to prove he still belongs in the NBA and is still an elite player! All things that bode well for us, honestly!

The only pro-Zion argument I can understand is to stay competitive with no regard for the future. Other than that, I just find picks and prospects now far more appealing than a few years (and potentially less if he's not healthy) of an experiment. I also think if he fails to stay healthy with us or doesn't impact our competitiveness as much as we hope, the value we'll get from a subsequent Zion trade is very likely going to fall off a cliff. He would have then failed at New Orleans and Phoenix and while there may be teams that could talk themselves into giving him a punt, they just aren't going to give up much for him and then once again, we would've paid a higher value than what we would get back in a trade later down the track. Also Zion is almost 25 now and if he was to be traded from the Suns in a year or two down the track, he'd be 26-27.

The way I see it, a KD trade that maximises future value now would be far better than trying to recoup value with Zion if that experiment fails.

Sure that's a fair perspective man. Although there are two important considerations here:

1st- Even at 26 or 27, Zion would just be entering his prime years, and could evolve in a multitude of ways that would sustain his value and trade interest. And depending upon the give up for him in buying low, and again, the basically nearly zero financial risk involved, the value gap still might end up being minimal at best!
2nd- The bulk of influence on our decision to trade KD for Zion or another package will be heavily predicated upon what level of value is offered by various teams. If the value from other teams is really solid, then I wouldn't lose sleep passing on Zion as a target, but if it ends up low ball and lousy, then eeff them all and give me Zion over a craptastic meediocre value outcome!

Given his injuries, his build and all of the medical concerns about his longevity, he very likely won't age like your average NBA player. I have no doubt he's already in his physical prime and I do think he'll have a pretty short prime as well given his play style, injury history and again, the longevity concerns most analysts already had before he even step foot on the NBA court. The fact that he's played under 50% of possible games in his short NBA career should tell you those pre-draft concerns are still very much valid and he's done very little to refute that.

For me, it's not the financial risk I'm concerned with because I knew there are non-guarantees in his contract. It's the opportunity costs you're giving up to muck around with Zion. Sure you could cut him after really giving him a go but then you're left with nothing.

Which follows onto your 2nd point about value. We value Zion differently and I just don't see even a 1 for 1 trade for KD good value. I don't know what teams would give up for for KD but I would presume most trades would be better than just one Zion. I just don't understand the point of Zion UNLESS it's to stay competitive and we continue to throw caution to the wind, which I hope we don't.

[enigmatics]

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Hassan Whiteside on a vet min "prove it deal anyone?? Could be a decent Plumlee replacement?

He has no legs. Literally can barely jump anymore. He wouldn't get away with that in the NBA. Not to mention the guy doesn't care about much of anything.

[lilfishi22]

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Hassan Whiteside on a vet min "prove it deal anyone?? Could be a decent Plumlee replacement?

He has no legs. Literally can barely jump anymore. He wouldn't get away with that in the NBA. Not to mention the guy doesn't care about much of anythinf.

Do they do any testing for PED's in *Checks notes* Puerto Rico?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Only a Bradley Beal away from major improvements!
Beal/ CLE 29' 1st for Isaac/ KCP/ Anthony/ Josephs/ BOS 25' 2nd (57th pick).

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Hassan Whiteside on a vet min "prove it deal anyone?? Could be a decent Plumlee replacement?

He has no legs. Literally can barely jump anymore. He wouldn't get away with that in the NBA. Not to mention the guy doesn't care about much of anythinf.

[sunsbg]

If we get back 25, 27, 29 picks or a good young player instead one of those picks I'll even take a bad contract from Rockets for KD. Next 2-3 years are rebuild anyway so can absorb some bad contracts from teams to gain assets(say Beal was on another team which wanted to dump him attaching picks like we'll probably stupidly do).

Easy money from Mavs beating Kings who like Suns are just a collection of names rather than a real team. Now Mavs need to lose to MEM and join KD sweepstakes.