PG: 1-2-3 Cancun

[LikeMike23]

I think your perspective is fair. I would disagree from the vantage point that I think you are factoring what Coby did post-Lavine. I watched him and had similar optimism but if you go back and look at how many/few of those 20pt games were against either tanking or resting teams. The answer is ~80% of his good stat games were against false competition...Kyrie is flawed, to be sure, but he puts up those numbers against good teams too. When Coby played good teams of late, he struggled like he did last night.

The reality is that he is an average starting talent. And look, that's not the worst thing...certainly not on his deal. But those type of guys are the ones that you need to trade before you sign a $20M+ deal with. Having 2 such deals (Coby and Pat) has the opportunity cost of not signing a MAX player.

Coby White's 44-point career-high came against the Orlando Magic, which has the second-ranked defense in the league.

Coby's struggles against the Heat had more to do with being double-teamed than anything else. When Coby is double-teamed, the Bulls need set plays or go-to actions to run. It's understandable that the Bulls didn't have this in place this year because, going into training camp, Coby was the third scoring option behind Zach and Vuc. I believe this will be addressed in training camp next year, so I'm not worried about it long term.

Doubled teamed? Coby is not bending defenses like this.

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

[2weekswithpay]

Coby White's 44-point career-high came against the Orlando Magic, which has the second-ranked defense in the league.

Coby's struggles against the Heat had more to do with being double-teamed than anything else. When Coby is double-teamed, the Bulls need set plays or go-to actions to run. It's understandable that the Bulls didn't have this in place this year because, going into training camp, Coby was the third scoring option behind Zach and Vuc. I believe this will be addressed in training camp next year, so I'm not worried about it long term.

Doubled teamed? Coby is not bending defenses like this.

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

[GoBlue72391]

Coby White's 44-point career-high came against the Orlando Magic, which has the second-ranked defense in the league.

Coby's struggles against the Heat had more to do with being double-teamed than anything else. When Coby is double-teamed, the Bulls need set plays or go-to actions to run. It's understandable that the Bulls didn't have this in place this year because, going into training camp, Coby was the third scoring option behind Zach and Vuc. I believe this will be addressed in training camp next year, so I'm not worried about it long term.

Doubled teamed? Coby is not bending defenses like this.

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

Are these double teams in the room with us now?

[LikeMike23]

Doubled teamed? Coby is not bending defenses like this.

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

[LikeMike23]

Doubled teamed? Coby is not bending defenses like this.

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

Are these double teams in the room with us now?

They are, but your glasses aren't

[Dan Z]

So I have a bone to pick with most fans today who go back and forth complaining about everything.

We went thru 4 straight years of a "clearly tanked" team featuring Lauri, Wendell, Coby, Patrick.

But what did we do? Complain relentlessly about the direction of the team and were mad that we sucked year after year. It basically forced Pax to call it quits.

Now AKME comes in, makes quick win now moves. We then complain about it, and now people are going full circle asking him to burn it all the way down and be back to the 20 or less win teams.

Make up your mind people!

Its either you stomach an actual rebuild and not complain - no matter how long it takes.

OR go with the build internally, grabbing good free agents, and picking really well in the draft.

People want to tank one season, grab a franchise changing player, and go to contention in the next year. You in Lala land.

I dont disagree with your sentiment that fans generally need to accept the bumps that come along with whatever road they pick for team building. But unless im misreading your post I dont think the biggest issue fans had with the tanking years was complaining about direction - it was complaining about the execution. Guys like Mirotic and "KilDraftPick" cost the team lotto ball %s for whatever you think thats worth, just to wind up the next year in Europe or China while the Bulls picked JAG at 7 (or worse at 4).

I agree. The Bulls during those years didn't properly tank. That's why they ended up with back-to-back #7 picks instead of a higher one. Then when they finally got a better pick they screwed that one up (Patrick Williams at #4). At that point AK moved to a "win now" direction (which hasn't worked...one playoff game win in four years...no playoffs the last three seasons).

Also, the coach during those "tank" years was Jim Boylan. He was terrible when it came to player development it.

[Dan Z]

I'm now more open to letting Giddey walk and trading Coby, but neither should be a given or a must-do. It's just that committing to these two guys are major core pieces has an extremely small margin for error IMO. Need two very very good defenders with them and Matas, and both of those high level defenders would need to be capable offensive players too. Far easier said than done.

The first domino should be trying hard to make one or more bold trades prior to or at the draft, with Coby, Ball, and Ayo prime cards, as all three should have value and none of the three should be perceived as having a ton of untapped upside. I think our keep-low value guys are obviously Matas, but also to a lesser extent Smith, Patrick, and maaaaaybe Phillips or Terry if you squint real hard. These are all guys that have more potential value to us (by improving) than via likely trade.

Then when all that shakes out, only then do you decide what to do with Giddey and Jones. Plausible that Jones could possibly actually be a BETTER player than Giddey at less than half the cost. Food for thought.

Obviously, it depends on what those trades would be. Are you thinking Coby/Ayo/Ball for picks? Future assets? Or for a player (Zion for example)?

This is why I wanted the Bulls to trade Caruso for picks instead of Giddey. That way they could continue to build through the draft and don't have to give Giddey a big extension (tying themselves to him....I say that and generally like Giddey).

[GetBuLLish]

You cant please everyone but it eventually becomes a hive mind. The real truth is, people want results quickly.

The Bulls haven't won a playoff series in 10 years.

[DuckIII]

So I have a bone to pick with most fans today who go back and forth complaining about everything.

We went thru 4 straight years of a "clearly tanked" team featuring Lauri, Wendell, Coby, Patrick.

But what did we do? Complain relentlessly about the direction of the team and were mad that we sucked year after year. It basically forced Pax to call it quits.

This is that thing where the opinions of some are attributed to all. There were many fans upset that those were not genuine tank teams and were pissed at the organization for repeatedly failing to commit to obtaining high lottery picks.

For example, those "clearly tanked" teams you are talking about also had combinations of ZACH LAVINE, Robin Lopez, Nikola Mirotic, Otto Porter, Jr., Satoransky, etc. They weren't trying to tank. They just weren't very good. If they would have been trying to tank fully, they would not have asked for Lavine and Dunn when they traded Butler.

Now AKME comes in, makes quick win now moves. We then complain about it, and now people are going full circle asking him to burn it all the way down and be back to the 20 or less win teams.

Most Bulls fans DID NOT complain when AK came in and made win now moves. They were giddily falling all over themselves because we finally had someone who "didn't fall in love with his assets like Pax and really wanted to win"!

Its either you stomach an actual rebuild and not complain - no matter how long it takes.

Sounds great. We would be almost done by now if we'd have started 3 trade deadlines ago like we should have.

OR go with the build internally, grabbing good free agents, and picking really well in the draft.

We don't have elite internal talent, difference making free agency isn't really a thing any more, and "picking really well in the draft" isn't a strategy anymore than "being born pretty" is a good strategy for getting a date.

People want to tank one season, grab a franchise changing player, and go to contention in the next year. You in Lala land.

No one who legitimately understands the strategy would ever describe tanking that way. So I'm not sure that really describes anyone.

[2weekswithpay]

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

He didn't need to start, he played 33 minutes. NBA.com has a matchup tracker, and guess who spent the most time guarding Coby? Davion Mitchell. Followed by Wiggins and Bam. The Heat weren't sending multiple defenders at Coby.

Spoiler:

[Ice Man]

I mean, we've been through this before, but the teams that finished "ahead" of us in 2017, the year that we are said to have improperly tanked -

1) Phoenix - Got little from its draft pick, got better regardless, now terrible
2) Memphis - Got JJJ, that helped a lot, they are now pretty good but not really contenders
3) Atlanta - Got Trae, that helped but nevertheless they are going nowhere
4) Orlando - Got nothing from its draft pick
5) Dallas - Got Luka, that worked out great, now they're toast
6) Sacramento - Got nothing, going nowhere
7) Chicago - Say no more

That evidence isn't much of an advertisement for tanking, aside from Dallas having a nice run. Truth is, our odds are probably higher building with Giddey + Matas and hoping that they play well enough next year that we're not a lottery team.

I know, people will say that those guys aren't good enough, but come on now. Jaylen Brown had a VORP of -0.6 as a rookie, whereas Matas was -0.2. At age 22, Tatum had a VORP of 3.4, while Giddey was 2.7 this year. Or look up Mobley & Garland at those ages, or the best current players on the Rockets. Most guys who end up being Top 2 options on a strong team aren't recognized as such when they are the ages of Giddey & Matas.

I'm not saying it's going to happen with those guys, but damn if it's not a better bet than taking the Charlotte/Wizards path.

[LikeMike23]

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

He didn't need to start, he played 33 minutes. NBA.com has a matchup tracker, and guess who spent the most time guarding Coby? Davion Mitchell. Followed by Wiggins and Bam. The Heat weren't sending multiple defenders at Coby.

Spoiler:

If you really watched the games, you wouldn't need to check a matchup tracker!

Coby White was double-teamed throughout the last 2 games vs the Miami Heat. Here are the highlights:

Double-team timestamps: 0:33 mark. Again at the 1:00 mark.

Watch on YouTube

Double-team timestamp: 1:45 mark.

Watch on YouTube

These are highlight videos, so they don't really show the Heat's game plan for guarding Coby. However, if you watch the games, you will see Coby turning the ball over several times due to being double-teamed. He turned the ball over trying to pass out of double-teams and split double-teams.

[2weekswithpay]

If you really watched the games, you wouldn't need to check a matchup tracker!

Coby White was double-teamed throughout the last 2 games vs the Miami Heat. Here are the highlights:

Double-team timestamps: 0:33 mark. Again at the 1:00 mark.

Watch on YouTube

Double-team timestamp: 1:45 mark.

Watch on YouTube

These are highlight videos, so they don't really show the Heat's game plan for guarding Coby. However, if you watch the games, you will see Coby turning the ball over several times due to being double-teamed. He turned the ball over trying to pass out of double-teams and split double-teams.

I watched both videos, and all I see is normal help defense and rotations. Another defender being near him doesn't make it a double team.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

the season ended. didn't even realize the play-in was happening until they had already lost by 30 or whatever.

is AK still employed? why?

[MGB8]

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

He didn't need to start, he played 33 minutes. NBA.com has a matchup tracker, and guess who spent the most time guarding Coby? Davion Mitchell. Followed by Wiggins and Bam. The Heat weren't sending multiple defenders at Coby.

Spoiler:

Ugly video, but actually gives me some hope. It sure looks like Coby put it on himself to be “the guy,” tried to force things that he really couldn’t get away with, and failed (and also failed to adjust). Now, Billy could and should have stepped in, but still - I do think that Coby will learn from this. Mind you, that doesn’t change my overall eval on him - more high-end 6th man than lead scorer on a strong team - but does change how I would put the odds/splits.

[Dan Z]

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

He didn't need to start, he played 33 minutes. NBA.com has a matchup tracker, and guess who spent the most time guarding Coby? Davion Mitchell. Followed by Wiggins and Bam. The Heat weren't sending multiple defenders at Coby.

Spoiler:

In that video...Coby's second shot attempted that he missed...Vucevic couldn't go back up with it. I wonder how many times that happened through out the season..? Sigh.

[MrSparkle]

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

He didn't need to start, he played 33 minutes. NBA.com has a matchup tracker, and guess who spent the most time guarding Coby? Davion Mitchell. Followed by Wiggins and Bam. The Heat weren't sending multiple defenders at Coby.

Spoiler:

Ugly video, but actually gives me some hope. It sure looks like Coby put it on himself to be “the guy,” tried to force things that he really couldn’t get away with, and failed (and also failed to adjust). Now, Billy could and should have stepped in, but still - I do think that Coby will learn from this. Mind you, that doesn’t change my overall eval on him - more high-end 6th man than lead scorer on a strong team - but does change how I would put the odds/splits.

Some elite 1-on-1 defense in each of those match-ups. I kind of agree, not entirely discouraged by those plays. You need to go iso and make buckets at some point, and I don't have a problem with Coby's attacks. He just couldn't generate anything against top-notch defenders.

Thing is, until he can do it against such competition, he's not worth more than $15m salary. I'm not sure where AK goes with the contract, but Coby needs to show that ability before he gets the big deal. A scoring guard who can't score in iso on a switch is ... not a scoring guard who can score in iso on a switch. A journey-man like Tre Jones, Sexton, Clarkson, Schroder or Cam Payne if I had to be harsh.

Herro made quite a jump the last year. But he was already a better and more established player each prior season.

[Dan Z]

I mean, we've been through this before, but the teams that finished "ahead" of us in 2017, the year that we are said to have improperly tanked -

1) Phoenix - Got little from its draft pick, got better regardless, now terrible
2) Memphis - Got JJJ, that helped a lot, they are now pretty good but not really contenders
3) Atlanta - Got Trae, that helped but nevertheless they are going nowhere
4) Orlando - Got nothing from its draft pick
5) Dallas - Got Luka, that worked out great, now they're toast
6) Sacramento - Got nothing, going nowhere
7) Chicago - Say no more

That evidence isn't much of an advertisement for tanking, aside from Dallas having a nice run. Truth is, our odds are probably higher building with Giddey + Matas and hoping that they play well enough next year that we're not a lottery team.

I know, people will say that those guys aren't good enough, but come on now. Jaylen Brown had a VORP of -0.6 as a rookie, whereas Matas was -0.2. At age 22, Tatum had a VORP of 3.4, while Giddey was 2.7 this year. Or look up Mobley & Garland at those ages, or the best current players on the Rockets. Most guys who end up being Top 2 options on a strong team aren't recognized as such when they are the ages of Giddey & Matas.

I'm not saying it's going to happen with those guys, but damn if it's not a better bet than taking the Charlotte/Wizards path.

It doesn't matter who those teams picked. If the Bulls had a higher pick (or won the coin toss with Sacramento) and picked Luka then we'd all be ecstatic. That's a franchise changing move, regardless of Dallas messing it up by trading Luka.I know some people say they'd pick Bagley, but who knows. My point is that the right move and it changes everything.

Same if the Bulls tanked in 2023 and were lucky enough to get Wemdy (I know...they weren't tanking).

I like Giddey, Matas and Coby, but the team needs more talent. There's a good chance that those three will keep the team just good enough not to get a top 5 pick, but not good enough to really compete (after all they just won 39 games and badly lost in the play-in).

[boozapalooza]

The Heat double-teamed Coby in the last two games the Bulls played against them. This is not up for debate. Just watch the games.

I did, Davion Mitchell didn't need help guarding Coby. The same can be said for Bam and Wiggins.

If you watched the game, you would know Davion Mitchell didn't start!

Davion didnt start, Coby was 2-2 for 6 pts to start the game w/o Davion, then Davion came in and Coby went 3-18 shooting the rest of the way. Coby wasnt doubled much. Davion just hounded him and played a great game. He guarded Coby well in their matchup last week as well.

[LikeMike23]

If you really watched the games, you wouldn't need to check a matchup tracker!

Coby White was double-teamed throughout the last 2 games vs the Miami Heat. Here are the highlights:

Double-team timestamps: 0:33 mark. Again at the 1:00 mark.

Watch on YouTube

Double-team timestamp: 1:45 mark.

Watch on YouTube

These are highlight videos, so they don't really show the Heat's game plan for guarding Coby. However, if you watch the games, you will see Coby turning the ball over several times due to being double-teamed. He turned the ball over trying to pass out of double-teams and split double-teams.

I watched both videos, and all I see is normal help defense and rotations. Another defender being near him doesn't make it a double team.

Now, post all of Coby's turnovers against the Miami Heat in the last two games we played against them.

Otherwise, stop quoting me because you didn't watch the game!

Coby White had several turnovers due to being double-teamed. Here's video proof:

Next time, actually watch the game before denying something happened!