Jazz's Markkanen: Tanking is a failed concept

[celtxman]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

[HotelVitale]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

I'm imagining it, and I'm mostly seeing a few teams that I'd never dream of watching playing more solid vets in games I'd never dream of watching. I'm very indifferent to TOR or WAS trying harder to win in March, and besides at some point most of those teams would just pack it in anyway and not want to risk injuries or whatever in the last couple weeks of a season. It wouldn't be as bad or embarrassing maybe but it wouldn't be some sea change to the ethics of the NBA.

I don't mind if the NBA changes things but people have gotten weirdly obsessed with tanking. It hasn't been getting any worse at all than it was in the past, and in most seasons there are like 3 terrible teams all year, another 2-3 who come around to that by like 60% through the season, and another 2-3 who come around to tanking by the last month or so. That's at most about 1/3 of the league, mostly in the last part of the year, and everyone involved is irrelevant for the season.

It feels like people have in general got way less interested in following and talking about the good teams lately and prefer to talk about problems with the NBA that mostly focus on bad teams (and how the NBA has lost its way or is screwing them). It's pretty strange but feels like it's part of our cultural moment in general.

[celtxman]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

I'm imagining it, and I'm mostly seeing a few teams that I'd never dream of watching playing more solid vets in games I'd never dream of watching. I'm very indifferent to TOR or WAS trying harder to win in March, and besides at some point most of those teams would just pack it in anyway and not want to risk injuries or whatever in the last couple weeks of a season. It wouldn't be as bad or embarrassing maybe but it wouldn't be some sea change to the ethics of the NBA.

I don't mind if the NBA changes things but people have gotten weirdly obsessed with tanking. It hasn't been getting any worse at all than it was in the past, and in most seasons there are like 3 terrible teams all year, another 2-3 who come around to that by like 60% through the season, and another 2-3 who come around to tanking by the last month or so. That's at most about 1/3 of the league, and they're all teams who are pretty irrelevant.

It feels like people have in general got way less interested in following and talking about the good teams lately and prefer to talk about problems with the NBA that mostly focus on bad teams (and how the NBA has lost its way or is screwing them). It's pretty strange but feels like it's part of our cultural moment in general.

I just like the idea of rewarding teams for working hard, ethically and smart. The only way to do this is to eliminate losing as a strategy is to actually change the rules. The general tone of this thread indicates people aren't happy about systems that reward losing. My signature has been around over a decade. I was so encouraged when Stevens said that, that it became my signature. I have always hated tanking even when my team did it.
This thread and other similar threads are like playing a lottery ticket for me. I put in my 2 cents and hope somebody in the NBA reads it and realizes they promote losing. Then I rinse and repeat and do it again in 3 months. Nothing will change....including my banking account after buying a lottery ticket lol.

[The Master]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

It's not that complicated to eliminate lottery - it's (for now) impossible to drastically change lottery and maintain ~parity in the league. Your system doesn't work because often times you are not bad because you want to - you're bad because star leaves your team for free/requests a trade/gets severely injured. To change draft system, 70% or 80% of organizations have to approve it. Majority of owners won't support system favoring big markets and any change (wheel system, flat lottery odds) affecting parity directly benefits big markets (because they have the best access to talent pool besides drafting).

NBA embraces lottery - because for mid- or small markets building a strong team via draft is often the only option. Big markets are fine with that because they're still at advantage overall.

[PhilBlackson]

Ironically I've seen on multiple occasions where him & other players on his roster where 100% fine (in fact smiling & laughing) with being on the bench while they did tank so his actions don't quite match his words.

[celtxman]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

It's not that complicated to eliminate lottery - it's (for now) impossible to drastically change lottery and maintain ~parity in the league. Your system doesn't work because often times you are not bad because you want to - you're bad because star leaves your team for free/requests a trade/gets severely injured. To change draft system, 70% or 80% of organizations have to approve it. Majority of owners won't support system favoring big markets and any change (wheel system, flat lottery odds) affecting parity directly benefits big markets (because they have the best access to talent pool besides drafting).

NBA embraces lottery - because for mid- or small markets building a strong team via draft is often the only option. Big markets are fine with that because they're still at advantage overall.

Don't buy into the small market/large market myth. Until last year the NY Knicks had the worst record in the entire NBA for the entire 21st Century. The Milwaukee Bucks the smallest market team there is won a championship without high lottery picks. The Brooklyn Nets, the stepbrother of the Knicks in NY,, following the fateful trade with the Celtics, giving up three high lottery picks, had no picks, a terrible gutted team, and seemingly no chance of digging out of it. They got new ownership, new management, and a good coach. Within a few years they were a Kevin Durant big toe from being in the Finals and likely winning it. Why did Durant and Irving go there? Because they saw that this was clearly a better opportunity than the wealthier Knicks. Philadelphia, the 6th largest city in the Country was the birthplace of "trust the process." Perpetual losing orchestrated by Sam Hinkie, accumulated four straight lottery picks between #1 and #3 OVERALL. The result? They're back in the high lottery this season, with an epic season ending tank. I'm sure the small market teams were impressed that the Sixers flew right by them and will get a higher pick as a result. Once we realize that tanking is an equal opportunity crutch for the poor and the rich, we can at least get to the truth.

[Shock Defeat]

Ironically I've seen on multiple occasions where him & other players on his roster where 100% fine (in fact smiling & laughing) with being on the bench while they did tank so his actions don't quite match his words.

What is he supposed to do? That's why I said the Jazz ruined him. They took away his competitive fire and edge. He's probably never going to get that back.

[doogie_hauser]

People complain about not enough teams blowing it all up and starting pretty much from scratch.

This has exactly what Washington have done in the last 2 years (since trading Brad Beal) and mostly stating rookies/youth this season, and some twits complain they shouldn't be rewarded because they for once actually took the courageous stand to no longer be a mid/mediocre team and decided to pretty much start from scratch?

If anything else, the Wiz deserve Cooper Flagg for deciding to go on a bold new direction, despite the inevitable teething pains that go with it.

The Sixers on the other hand have pathetically thrown in the towel since the middle of January.

Two wins in their last 35 games or something.

That's disgusting and should not be rewarded at the lotto

[Lala870]

Still trying to figure out how Utah blew that Donavon Mitchell team up,

Him and Gobert couldn't co-exist, and Mitchell pretty much said he didn't want to stay in Utah.

Sounds like the NBA wanted him in Cleveland smh. The east still sucks

[Lala870]

Ironically I've seen on multiple occasions where him & other players on his roster where 100% fine (in fact smiling & laughing) with being on the bench while they did tank so his actions don't quite match his words.

What is he supposed to do? That's why I said the Jazz ruined him. They took away his competitive fire and edge. He's probably never going to get that back.

Not to go all Isiah Thomas... but be a professional? Fans are paying big money to see grown men play a childs game.

Taking it seriously in a business context can go a long way.

The Nugget players do similar juvenile antics after they lose like coming up to the post game presser drinking smoothies like its for a youtube video.

[The Master]

Don't buy into the small market/large market myth. Until last year the NY Knicks had the worst record in the entire NBA for the entire 21st Century. The Milwaukee Bucks the smallest market team there is won a championship without high lottery picks. The Brooklyn Nets, the stepbrother of the Knicks in NY,, following the fateful trade with the Celtics, giving up three high lottery picks, had no picks, a terrible gutted team, and seemingly no chance of digging out of it. They got new ownership, new management, and a good coach. Within a few years they were a Kevin Durant big toe from being in the Finals and likely winning it. Why did Durant and Irving go there? Because they saw that this was clearly a better opportunity than the wealthier Knicks. Philadelphia, the 6th largest city in the Country was the birthplace of "trust the process." Perpetual losing orchestrated by Sam Hinkie, accumulated four straight lottery picks between #1 and #3 OVERALL. The result? They're back in the high lottery this season, with an epic season ending tank. I'm sure the small market teams were impressed that the Sixers flew right by them and will get a higher pick as a result. Once we realize that tanking is an equal opportunity crutch for the poor and the rich, we can at least get to the truth.

Until last year the Knicks had the worst record in the NBA, and yet they were able to sign Melo, Amare or Brunson as free agents (Melo in contract year was technically hadballing Nuggets to trade to NY before trade daedline). Brooklyn Nets won two playoff series in 10 years prior to signing Kyrie and KD. Lakers won 27, 21, 17, 26, 35 and 37 games prior to signing LeBron.

Yeah, small markets can create championship-level teams with smart management, and big markets can be poor for years with bad management, and they can tank - the point is: big markets frequently get stars for free/on discount (resquets), small markets don't. When small markets are bad, they at least get high picks to acquire top talent.

Flat lottery odds or wheel lottery system will long term decrease parity in the league. Imagine Lakers getting LeBron for free, then AD hardballing Pelicans, and then 2nd pick in the draft, because that was the order of wheel of fortune, while Cavs getting 14th pick and Pelicans 21st. It doesn't work the other way around.

Any reform has to be accepted by at least 23 organizations (?) - flat lottery odds or wheel system definitely wouldn't. Small markets would be just dumb to accept these systems. Obviously, we can discuss unrealistic scenarios - but your point was that the NBA has great system prepared and just decided not to use it, so that what I was referring to.

[FarBeyondDriven]

People complain about not enough teams blowing it all up and starting pretty much from scratch.

This has exactly what Washington have done in the last 2 years (since trading Brad Beal) and mostly stating rookies/youth this season, and some twits complain they shouldn't be rewarded because they for once actually took the courageous stand to no longer be a mid/mediocre team and decided to pretty much start from scratch?

If anything else, the Wiz deserve Cooper Flagg for deciding to go on a bold new direction, despite the inevitable teething pains that go with it.

The Sixers on the other hand have pathetically thrown in the towel since the middle of January.

Two wins in their last 35 games or something.

That's disgusting and should not be rewarded at the lotto

I agree about the Wizards as they finally embraced the tank and did it the right way by playing their youth instead of playing more capable vets which most inept tanking teams have made the mistake of doing in the past. Flagg (or Bailey imho) are all they need to end their tank and they can then let these kids develop organically and try to win games surrounded by the vets they have now.

The Sixers had a lot of really bad luck. They dealt with injuries to both Embiid (he only played 20 games) and Paul George (he only played 40) plus they lost their promising rookie McCain the 2nd month into the season. They actually made astute trades at the deadline so were actually still trying to weather the storm (Grimes and Butler) but they couldn't overcome the injuries and threw in the towel most likely because they owe OKC a first rounder and it's got protections (1-6 in 2025) I really can't fault the Sixers at all.

[God Squad]

Ironically I've seen on multiple occasions where him & other players on his roster where 100% fine (in fact smiling & laughing) with being on the bench while they did tank so his actions don't quite match his words.

There's also this

Read on Twitter

He knew what he was signing, he knew what he was in for. I feel no sympathy for him in this situation.

[Prestige]

This is a problem that has continued to get worse and will have to be addressed. There are already so many competing interests now, I can see viewership and attendance dropping off a cliff in the next decade.

[BigGargamel]

Maybe Lauri should focus on playing in a single playoff game before commenting on tanking.

wtf kind of response is this

[BigGargamel]

This is a problem that has continued to get worse and will have to be addressed. There are already so many competing interests now, I can see viewership and attendance dropping off a cliff in the next decade.

No. It used to be a lot worse. We don't see rosters like this anymore.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2003.html

"Tanking" teams today, like the Wizards and Jazz, are at least playing their rookies big minutes. That Nuggets team just emptied the tank and threw career long bums on the court to throw games.

[Dan Z]

Tanking will exist until the league has a hard cap and no draft.

Let well managed teams be rewarded, and let players decide where they want to go. Easy solution but it won’t happen because the players want to go over the cap, and the big city team fans would bitch they can’t just bankroll a winning team. But it is the solution.

How would the NBA opperate with no draft picks? Trades would rarely happen.

[Dan Z]

Ironically I've seen on multiple occasions where him & other players on his roster where 100% fine (in fact smiling & laughing) with being on the bench while they did tank so his actions don't quite match his words.

There's also this

Read on Twitter

He knew what he was signing, he knew what he was in for. I feel no sympathy for him in this situation.

He knows the situation that he's in, but that doesn't mean he can't be frustrated about. He's not causing problems for the Jazz and is just talking about how he feels about tanking.

Also, Im not sure if he really had a choice, but to re-sign with the Jazz. He was traded there and his original contract didn't end until after this season. The option was to either sign the new deal or wait until his contract expires (which means he'd still have to go through this seasons tank year).

Based on reports Ainge tried to trade him last off season, but nothing happened. Why? I have no idea. I bet the two of them talked about it.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Just flatten the lottery odds. Thats what makes the most sense.

[toooskies]

The issue is that winning a basketball game when your team is eliminated is worse from a team-building perspective than losing so that you get a slightly better chance at getting to pick a player with a slightly better chance of giving you more wins 3-8 years from now.

But the secret that the good small-market teams know already is that when nobody is trying to win, or you have too many young players to play coherent systems of basketball, you slow down development and perpetuate how bad you are. If you happen to get a future superstar or two, you're still limited by how good and complete of a team you can build around them.

You're typically much better off building a middle-of-the-road team, letting bad seasons happen naturally due to injuries and slumps while trying to put a good product on the floor. Sell tickets as much as you can, invest in scouting and development, build and maintain a loyal fan base, and hope you luck into a Jokic/Giannis with your middle-of-the-road picks or find a Haliburton or SGA in trades. Tear down when you must, but get good young players in the process so you're not rolling the dice constantly.