Jazz's Markkanen: Tanking is a failed concept

[Daddy 801]

Tanking will exist until the league has a hard cap and no draft.

Let well managed teams be rewarded, and let players decide where they want to go. Easy solution but it won’t happen because the players want to go over the cap, and the big city team fans would bitch they can’t just bankroll a winning team. But it is the solution.

You can fix the problem without a hard cap and still have a draft.

Flatten the odds for all, limit the # of picks you can move up to 13, and pick the top 5. Why would anyone tank to get the 6th pick?

I personally don’t see this as a better solution than letting players choose where they want to go and a hard cap or an extremely penalizing cap similar to what we have now.

[Daddy 801]

Tanking will exist until the league has a hard cap and no draft.

Let well managed teams be rewarded, and let players decide where they want to go. Easy solution but it won’t happen because the players want to go over the cap, and the big city team fans would bitch they can’t just bankroll a winning team. But it is the solution.

How would the NBA opperate with no draft picks? Trades would rarely happen.

I think if players choose where they want to go, and less trades because of no draft picks, it would lead to players becoming lifers on teams. Which would be a good thing in my opinion. I don’t think teams having to get rid of the players all the time is good for the league, viewership, etc. If the players choose where they go and know that trades don’t really happen all the time, they would be very careful about where they sign and the teams with the best management would be rewarded which is also a good thing.

[Memories]

I don’t really feel bad. Lauri literally SIGNED into this situation. He didn’t have to, he could have just become an UFA and sign elsewhere.

But he did. He chose money over competing. Simple as that. And there is nothing wrong with that. But to complain about it afterwards? Sorry my guy but sometimes you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

I will say though, Ainge definitely sucks at cashing in his assets.

[YogurtProducer]

Tanking will exist until the league has a hard cap and no draft.

Let well managed teams be rewarded, and let players decide where they want to go. Easy solution but it won’t happen because the players want to go over the cap, and the big city team fans would bitch they can’t just bankroll a winning team. But it is the solution.

You can fix the problem without a hard cap and still have a draft.

Flatten the odds for all, limit the # of picks you can move up to 13, and pick the top 5. Why would anyone tank to get the 6th pick?

I personally don’t see this as a better solution than letting players choose where they want to go and a hard cap or an extremely penalizing cap similar to what we have now.

Letting players choose where they go means some teams wouldn’t ever get good prospects.

[Hoop Hunter]

Maybe Lauri should focus on playing in a single playoff game before commenting on tanking.

Insane take.

[Daddy 801]

You can fix the problem without a hard cap and still have a draft.

Flatten the odds for all, limit the # of picks you can move up to 13, and pick the top 5. Why would anyone tank to get the 6th pick?

I personally don’t see this as a better solution than letting players choose where they want to go and a hard cap or an extremely penalizing cap similar to what we have now.

Letting players choose where they go means some teams wouldn’t ever get good prospects.

It will with a hard cap. Sure players would want to go to LA. But if they only have 5 million in cap space in the off season and a team like Char, NO, Utah, etc has 30-50 million in cap space you bet your ass a player like Wemby or Flagg would choose a contract worth 20 million a year over a contract worth 5 million a year. The “tanking” teams would be teams that are clearing space the season before a player is available. And force those teams to trade for expiring contracts. A team like LA with championship aspirations and players like a Luka or LeBron are not going to clear cap space by trading those players away to potentially get Flagg or Wemby. And even if they did, it means a team with cap space or expiring contracts is going to benefit by getting a Luka type player.

A free and open signing for rookies only works with a hard cap. Or a very, very punitive cap. I personally think a hard cap with only the exception of bird rights of a player who signed a rookie deal with that team is the best path. And hard restrictions on bird rights so a team can’t sign a rookie to a 1 year deal and then jump up their pay a ton the next season. Maybe rookie deals have to be five year deals with a hard cap and bird rights.

Yes, it would lead to less player movement. Which I personally think is good for the league. Fans would be more invested in their team and players if there was a level of “loyalty” by players.

[celtxman]

Don't buy into the small market/large market myth. Until last year the NY Knicks had the worst record in the entire NBA for the entire 21st Century. The Milwaukee Bucks the smallest market team there is won a championship without high lottery picks. The Brooklyn Nets, the stepbrother of the Knicks in NY,, following the fateful trade with the Celtics, giving up three high lottery picks, had no picks, a terrible gutted team, and seemingly no chance of digging out of it. They got new ownership, new management, and a good coach. Within a few years they were a Kevin Durant big toe from being in the Finals and likely winning it. Why did Durant and Irving go there? Because they saw that this was clearly a better opportunity than the wealthier Knicks. Philadelphia, the 6th largest city in the Country was the birthplace of "trust the process." Perpetual losing orchestrated by Sam Hinkie, accumulated four straight lottery picks between #1 and #3 OVERALL. The result? They're back in the high lottery this season, with an epic season ending tank. I'm sure the small market teams were impressed that the Sixers flew right by them and will get a higher pick as a result. Once we realize that tanking is an equal opportunity crutch for the poor and the rich, we can at least get to the truth.

Until last year the Knicks had the worst record in the NBA, and yet they were able to sign Melo, Amare or Brunson as free agents (Melo in contract year was technically hadballing Nuggets to trade to NY before trade daedline). Brooklyn Nets won two playoff series in 10 years prior to signing Kyrie and KD. Lakers won 27, 21, 17, 26, 35 and 37 games prior to signing LeBron.

Yeah, small markets can create championship-level teams with smart management, and big markets can be poor for years with bad management, and they can tank - the point is: big markets frequently get stars for free/on discount (resquets), small markets don't. When small markets are bad, they at least get high picks to acquire top talent.

Flat lottery odds or wheel lottery system will long term decrease parity in the league. Imagine Lakers getting LeBron for free, then AD hardballing Pelicans, and then 2nd pick in the draft, because that was the order of wheel of fortune, while Cavs getting 14th pick and Pelicans 21st. It doesn't work the other way around.

Any reform has to be accepted by at least 23 organizations (?) - flat lottery odds or wheel system definitely wouldn't. Small markets would be just dumb to accept these systems. Obviously, we can discuss unrealistic scenarios - but your point was that the NBA has great system prepared and just decided not to use it, so that what I was referring to.

The competitive advantages of having teams in NY, LA, Florida ,Texas and low tax states can't really be fixed. You can't sell playing in Minnesota over NY. And yet it shows that even with advantages if you have bad management you can't win it all with Melo. Like I said, tanking is an equal opportunity scam. It rewards the teams losing in both the destination cities and small markets like I said about the 76ers.
There are definitely kinks in any system including the Wheel to be sure. And I agree that this will never pass 23 teams. What's really not working is what we have now.

[Dan Z]

I personally don’t see this as a better solution than letting players choose where they want to go and a hard cap or an extremely penalizing cap similar to what we have now.

Letting players choose where they go means some teams wouldn’t ever get good prospects.

It will with a hard cap. Sure players would want to go to LA. But if they only have 5 million in cap space in the off season and a team like Char, NO, Utah, etc has 30-50 million in cap space you bet your ass a player like Wemby or Flagg would choose a contract worth 20 million a year over a contract worth 5 million a year. The “tanking” teams would be teams that are clearing space the season before a player is available. And force those teams to trade for expiring contracts. A team like LA with championship aspirations and players like a Luka or LeBron are not going to clear cap space by trading those players away to potentially get Flagg or Wemby. And even if they did, it means a team with cap space or expiring contracts is going to benefit by getting a Luka type player.

A free and open signing for rookies only works with a hard cap. Or a very, very punitive cap. I personally think a hard cap with only the exception of bird rights of a player who signed a rookie deal with that team is the best path. And hard restrictions on bird rights so a team can’t sign a rookie to a 1 year deal and then jump up their pay a ton the next season. Maybe rookie deals have to be five year deals with a hard cap and bird rights.

Yes, it would lead to less player movement. Which I personally think is good for the league. Fans would be more invested in their team and players if there was a level of “loyalty” by players.

How would a team clear cap space if they have no picks? You won't be able to get rid of a contract because you can't add an incentive (draft picks) to it. For the most part teams would have to wait until salaries just expire.

[Dan Z]

I don’t really feel bad. Lauri literally SIGNED into this situation. He didn’t have to, he could have just become an UFA and sign elsewhere.

But he did. He chose money over competing. Simple as that. And there is nothing wrong with that. But to complain about it afterwards? Sorry my guy but sometimes you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

I will say though, Ainge definitely sucks at cashing in his assets.

The new contract that he signed was a renegotiation of his old one. His old contract ended this season, so he'd still have to go through this tanking year.

[doogie_hauser]

I don’t really feel bad. Lauri literally SIGNED into this situation. He didn’t have to, he could have just become an UFA and sign elsewhere.

But he did. He chose money over competing. Simple as that. And there is nothing wrong with that. But to complain about it afterwards? Sorry my guy but sometimes you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

I will say though, Ainge definitely sucks at cashing in his assets.

Oh please. Some team is going to be silly enough ti cough up a couple maybe 3 first round picks for Kessler in the off season.

Utah/Salt Lake is sadly one of the most undesirable locations to play in (least in trying to attract stars and big name free agents) so Ainge has to work in stock piling draft picks.

Ainge should be congratulated in not being manipulated or strong armed by bigger market teams like the Lakers or Knicks into giving up his assets/players cheaply.

I applaud him for that hard line stance. He is not a shill like Nico

[MrPainfulTruth]

Maybe Lauri should focus on playing in a single playoff game before commenting on tanking.

Have you played in a single playoff game?

[celtxman]

The NBA has had an answer to the lottery for a long time. The Wheel System developed by Mike Zarren over a decade ago would eliminate the lottery.. The NBA had this system in their hands to use, tweak, modify and refine this idea all of this time. But lotteries and tanking is embraced by the NBA.
The concept is every team in a span of 30 seasons (or more with expansion)will have exactly one shot at each pick (#1 overall, #3 overall, #17 overall, #28 overall etc.) It is random through a computer program.
Imagine never having another NBA game where a team is trying to lose? NEVER.

It's not that complicated to eliminate lottery - it's (for now) impossible to drastically change lottery and maintain ~parity in the league. Your system doesn't work because often times you are not bad because you want to - you're bad because star leaves your team for free/requests a trade/gets severely injured. To change draft system, 70% or 80% of organizations have to approve it. Majority of owners won't support system favoring big markets and any change (wheel system, flat lottery odds) affecting parity directly benefits big markets (because they have the best access to talent pool besides drafting).

NBA embraces lottery - because for mid- or small markets building a strong team via draft is often the only option. Big markets are fine with that because they're still at advantage overall.

Don't buy into the small market/large market myth. Until last year the NY Knicks had the worst record in the entire NBA for the entire 21st Century. The Milwaukee Bucks the smallest market team there is won a championship without high lottery picks. The Brooklyn Nets, the stepbrother of the Knicks in NY,, following the fateful trade with the Celtics, giving up three high lottery picks, had no picks, a terrible gutted team, and seemingly no chance of digging out of it. They got new ownership, new management, and a good coach. Within a few years they were a Kevin Durant big toe from being in the Finals and likely winning it. Why did Durant and Irving go there? Because they saw that this was clearly a better opportunity than the wealthier Knicks. Philadelphia, the 6th largest city in the Country was the birthplace of "trust the process." Perpetual losing orchestrated by Sam Hinkie, accumulated four straight lottery picks between #1 and #3 OVERALL. The result? They're back in the high lottery this season, with an epic season ending tank. I'm sure the small market teams were impressed that the Sixers flew right by them and will get a higher pick as a result. Once we realize that tanking is an equal opportunity crutch for the poor and the rich, we can at least get to the truth.

Are we still buying the myth? Is Adam Silver anywhere to be found.