The Maya Moore Thread

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The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 15, 2025 9:53 pm

So I posted the content below on the GB in their 2025 HOF Finalists thread - with Maya Moore being one of the candidates.

I've actually been meaning to speak to Moore more on the WNBA board for a while, but wasn't sure in what context to do it. Having written the below, I thought I might as well just make a thread, and see where it goes. I'll look to post more later.

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Okay so I'm going to take the opportunity to give a love letter to Moore, who I would consider to be a bigger deal than almost anyone realizes, even in the women's game.

Maya Moore

Image

In my assessment, she is the clear cut GOAT of the WNBA era of women's basketball - which also gives her a strong argument for all-time GOAT of women's ball - though I should be clear that this is a minority opinion as Diana Taurasi is the consensus GOAT.

If we look at pure winning, Moore stands out like no one else in history. 4 chips, and the highest career +/- of all-time despite playing only 8 seasons, which also causes her to be the most impressive impact player (using metrics like RAPM) in the history of the W in my assessment.

Moore was a player crowned in the WNBA as an MVP...but only once. Something very interesting happened to Moore's stature in the WNBA that caused her to get underrated: She was asked to play a jack-of-all-trades role rather than a volume scorer's role like she was known for at UConn where she still holds both the PPG & Win Shares records for both season and career over all other legends.

I think it's entirely possible that this was a mistake on (arguably GOAT WNBA) coach Cheryl Reeve, because I honestly think Moore could have ended up being something like WNBA LeBron with great 3-point shooting if Reeve had only adopted something more like her 2024 offense back in 2011, but the logic of it made sense. The team already had a star-level point guard in Lindsay Whalen and a star-level guard volume scorer in Seimone Augustus, and so they put Moore in a role that sacrificed both shooting and passing primacy, and that Whalen-Augustus-Moore trio would become a dynasty.

But it also led to Moore not making All-WNBA in her rookie year while Whalen & Augustus did, despite the fact that my impact-oriented assessment actually puts her as the MVP of the entire league as a rookie. Traditional box score and existing star status made it easy for people to talk about the Lynx championship success that year in terms of a team that successfully built around their two stars. However this negates an important fact:

The team had had those stars in 2010 and went 13-21, which was the 2nd worst record in the league, while in 2011 they went 27-7 which was easily the best record in the league. Their SRS improved by 11.5 points from year to year.

When you have that big of an improvement, I think we need to be skeptical that this counts as "building around a core" moment. Not that those who were there before didn't prove valuable to what was to come, but maybe just maybe, people should have been attributing more the new rookie who had just been the best player in UConn history and been drafted #1 overall.

Of course, as Moore improved to reach even higher heights, she would become the team's leading scorer, win MVP, finals MVP, etc, but I would suggest that we should see this as her rising to MVP levels, or people coming to recognize the scale of how valuable she was, but that Moore became so good that even if you just went by traditional box score and didn't factor in the massive non-box score impact, you still thought she was the best in the game.

But then, Reeve decided to acquire the aforementioned Sylvia Fowles, and to make Moore a secondary scorer again. Again, it works, but Moore's box score bigness drops and Fowles actually wins an MVP as Moore's teammate. My, probably not-so-surprising assessment: Moore was the most valuable player on the Lynx in all 8 years of her career, and should have won the MVP many times.

Okay, let me go back to the comparison with the consensus GOAT, and fellow UConn Husky, Taurasi.

If Taurasi shouldn't be considered the GOAT, and Moore should, why did people get confused?

1. Taurasi scored more, which people overrate the importance of...but to be fair, did it extremely well. I would say that in prime she had more scoring impact than Moore did.

2. In the lesser focused on parts of offense, I would say Moore was a better passer, rebounder, and off-ball offensive player than Taurasi, in addition to probably being the second best scorer of the era.

3. Less glamorous than offense entirely of course is defense. All would agree that Moore - who was honored as All-D - was a better defender than Taurasi. But here again, the impact data paints Moore as a considerably bigger deal than that, and I would say she should have been a DPOY, and been seen as arguably the best defender of her era.

4. I'll just also mention that Moore was arguably the best pure athlete in the WNBA - surely part of the reason why she was the first woman to become part of the Jordan brand - while Taurasi was not in that conversation. You wouldn't think that being a great athlete would hurt people's assessment of you, but people underrate the value of extremely high motor in the body of an extremely high BBIQ player.

5. Moore retired early at a time when the W really had faded from prominence, while a post-prime Taurasi (along with Sue Bird) to become a venerated elder stateswoman both with the WNBA and with the Olympics.

Alright let me end by discussing the end of Moore's basketball career.

After the 2018 season, Moore decided to step away from basketball to focus greater efforts in getting an innocent man out of prison. She was successful, and eventually married that man. She would have a child in 2022, and after that she would officially retire.

In terms of what it means for Moore's on-court GOAT candidacy, that's up to the eye of the beholder. But yeah, she literally stepped away from the game while still in-prime - she could have played great for considerably longer - and yet she still accomplished enough for strong career GOAT candidacy...in a sport that she stopped playing because she was doing something actually important in the real world.

Moore's just remarkable person with extreme drive and capacity to learn, and frankly I hope she goes on to do more great things in the future outside of basketball. There is no 21st century athlete that I have more holistic respect for than her.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#2 » by Ice Man » Sat Feb 15, 2025 11:41 pm

I know that you old timers (by WNBA standards) revere Maya Moore. Thanks for helping me to understand why.

All I know about Moore is that I heard her interviewed once and her class immediately showed.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#3 » by zimpy27 » Sun Feb 16, 2025 12:43 am

I hope she reads this one day
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#4 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 16, 2025 1:54 am

Alright, encouraged to post some more stuff, and specifically data.

First, just the rawest of the raw +/- for all-seasons (via b-r). Not nearly precise enough to be a GOAT list in its own right, but just gives you a nice sense of raw winning when the player was on the court:

1. Maya Moore (Min) +2436
2. Lindsay Whalen (Con, Min) +2228
3. Sue Bird (Sea) +2156
4. Candace Parker (LA, Chi, LV) +1977
5. Jonquel Jones (Con, NY) +1917
6. Chelsea Gray (Con, LA, LV) +1906
7. Lisa Leslie (LA) +1887
8. Breanna Stewart (Sea, NY) +1798
9. Tamika Catchings (Ind) +1618
(tie) Lauren Jackson (Sea) +1618

Clearly we can see these are all legends. Let me add the other players who won MVP in their career, along

A'ja Wilson (LV) +1522
Yolanda Griffith (Sac) +1392
Elena Delle Done (Chi, Was) +1381
Cynthia Cooper (Hou) +1349
Sheryl Swoopes (Hou, Sea, Tul) +1314
Nneka Ogwumike (LA, Sea) +1305
Diana Taurasi (Phx) +1279
Sylvia Fowles (Chi, Min) +1058
Tina Charles (Con, NY, Was, Phx, Sea, Atl) -256

Okay now I'm going to list the players in the same order, but show their career RS On & On-Off numbers per 100.

Maya Moore +13.5 +20.1
Lindsay Whalen +7.5 +5.6
Sue Bird +5.4 +7.6
Candace Parker +7.7 +7.4
Jonquel Jones +13.1 +13.4
Chelsea Grey +9.3 +6.9
Lisa Leslie +7.8 +12.9
Breanna Stewart +9.8 +13.9
Tamika Catchings +5.7 +12.5
Lauren Jackson +8.3 +14.7
A'ja Wilson +9.9 +5.5
Yolanda Griffith +7.6 +9.1
Elena Delle Donne +10.3 +13.9
Cynthia Cooper +15.8 +13.6
Sheryl Swoopes +6.6 +7.4
Nneka Ogwumike +5.8 +9.1
Diana Taurasi +3.6 +7.3
Sylvia Fowles +4.9 +5.5
Tina Charles -1.3 +0.9

I want people who are interested to look at this and think of it what they will, but just from a Moore perspective:

1st in career +/-. +2436 among all WNBA players, which is 9.3% higher than 2nd place (Whalen)

Among the 19 players listed here:

2nd in On/100 with +13.5, behind only Cynthia Cooper's +15.8. Cooper deserves much praise for her domination of the first 4 years of the W.

1st in On-Off/100 with +20.1, which is 36.7% higher than 2nd highest on this list (Jackson).

Pretty astonishing.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#5 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Feb 16, 2025 10:54 pm

Top 10 Highlights from her 2013 season - one of her best, but posting it just because I think they really give a sense of her game - particularly her motor and quick-thinking.

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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#6 » by MrDollarBills » Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:30 pm

Doc i have nothing to add that you haven't said. This is beautiful. Thank you.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#7 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:04 am

Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#8 » by MrDollarBills » Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:04 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol


I mean, yeah. She's one of the best basketball players to ever lace em up :)
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#9 » by Sealab2024 » Sat Feb 22, 2025 6:43 am

When Maya came in it was like adding world changing fire to fire. She was just something different. It honestly doesn't surprise me that she didn't have a super long career because much like Jordan, the domination seemed to bore her at times. To me, there's Cheryl Miller, Maya Moore and then a huge gap, then everyone else.

BTW, shots out to Lindsey Whalen. Methodically calculating the slow and inevitable decent of ones enemies into the halls of madness does show up on the stat sheet .
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#10 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:09 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol


Reasonable high praise imho, though of course LeBron's longevity is entirely different.

Stylistically, I might say she's Larry Bird meets Michael Jordan.

I'll also say that the most similar current star is her protégé, and fellow Husky & Lynx, Napheesa Collier, which I don't think is a coincidence.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#11 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:13 pm

Sealab2024 wrote:When Maya came in it was like adding world changing fire to fire. She was just something different. It honestly doesn't surprise me that she didn't have a super long career because much like Jordan, the domination seemed to bore her at times. To me, there's Cheryl Miller, Maya Moore and then a huge gap, then everyone else.

BTW, shots out to Lindsey Whalen. Methodically calculating the slow and inevitable decent of ones enemies into the halls of madness does show up on the stat sheet .


Love the Miller reference. If Miller could adapt and shoot 3's at all like her brother Reggie, she may well have been the best female basketball talent we've ever seen.

The other player in the deeper past I'd mention is the giant Latvian Uljana Semjonova whose international success is like no one else in basketball. I don't think Semjonova would be the best player in the modern pace & space game, but it seems likely that she was better at the pre-3 game than anyone else...and of course that's when Cheryl Miller played. A shame we didn't get to see them go against each other.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#12 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:09 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol


Reasonable high praise imho, though of course LeBron's longevity is entirely different.

Stylistically, I might say she's Larry Bird meets Michael Jordan.

I'll also say that the most similar current star is her protégé, and fellow Husky & Lynx, Napheesa Collier, which I don't think is a coincidence.

I was just thinking Lebron because you said jack of all trades and 4 rings and there's like the whole team is terrible when she's out thing.

Larry Jordan is cool too. Was she like a DPOY type of gal?
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#13 » by Black star » Tue Apr 15, 2025 8:08 am

I'm late to the party. Love the write up. Watching her in college I was always blown away by how insanely effortless she made dominating look for those Uconn teams. Then she went to the pros and it turned out even they couldn't slow her down.

I think she should be remembered up there with Serena Williams and Simone Biles as one of the greatest female athletes of our generation. Also, not strictly related to the basketball side of things but being at the peak of her powers as an MVP level player on a possible GOAT trajectory and choosing to step away from that to fight an injustice incarceration and for criminal justice reform says so much about her character and who she is as a person. Hands down one of my favorite athletes of all time
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#14 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 17, 2025 11:21 pm

Black star wrote:I'm late to the party. Love the write up. Watching her in college I was always blown away by how insanely effortless she made dominating look for those Uconn teams. Then she went to the pros and it turned out even they couldn't slow her down.

I think she should be remembered up there with Serena Williams and Simone Biles as one of the greatest female athletes of our generation. Also, not strictly related to the basketball side of things but being at the peak of her powers as an MVP level player on a possible GOAT trajectory and choosing to step away from that to fight an injustice incarceration and for criminal justice reform says so much about her character and who she is as a person. Hands down one of my favorite athletes of all time


Right there with you. It's weird seeing like this in basketball, as a basketball fan who is used to thinking about basketball as a HUGE sport where all the big things are talked about to death...but Moore really has not been talked about enough imho. 8-)
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#15 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 17, 2025 11:29 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol


Reasonable high praise imho, though of course LeBron's longevity is entirely different.

Stylistically, I might say she's Larry Bird meets Michael Jordan.

I'll also say that the most similar current star is her protégé, and fellow Husky & Lynx, Napheesa Collier, which I don't think is a coincidence.

I was just thinking Lebron because you said jack of all trades and 4 rings and there's like the whole team is terrible when she's out thing.

Larry Jordan is cool too. Was she like a DPOY type of gal?

So, I would say she was, but she was not given accolades on that level. While there's no doubt that her defense is praised, and she did make All-D twice, there's a major gap between that consensus and what I've seen looking back with data I really just think they weren't really aware of when Moore played.


Could've sworn I replied to this!

So, I need to be clear that just in the eyes of the consensus of her time, Moore was not a DPOY-level player. She was regularly among steals leaders and she did make All-D a couple times, but that's all. So I'm definitely talking about her being more impressive in my assessment than people at the time thought.

Let me also emphasize though: The Minnesota Lynx typically were a strong defense throughout Moore's career, so we're not talking about an empty stats situation. We're talking about some of the credit going to Moore's teammates perhaps being more about Moore than people realized.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#16 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Thu Apr 17, 2025 11:32 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Reading this she kind of seems like WNBA Lebron lol


Reasonable high praise imho, though of course LeBron's longevity is entirely different.

Stylistically, I might say she's Larry Bird meets Michael Jordan.

I'll also say that the most similar current star is her protégé, and fellow Husky & Lynx, Napheesa Collier, which I don't think is a coincidence.

I was just thinking Lebron because you said jack of all trades and 4 rings and there's like the whole team is terrible when she's out thing.

Larry Jordan is cool too. Was she like a DPOY type of gal?

So, I would say she was, but she was not given accolades on that level. While there's no doubt that her defense is praised, and she did make All-D twice, there's a major gap between that consensus and what I've seen looking back with data I really just think they weren't really aware of when Moore played.

So it's been a while but did you write on my post? I don't think I said the end part but thanks for the info.
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#17 » by Jstock12 » Fri Apr 18, 2025 8:49 am

I was never into WNBA, and I'm still only now learning more about it. So this was an interesting thread. The fact she decided to retire in her absolute prime in order to use her platform to seek justice and make situation better for future generations, I already respect her more than 99% of other athletes (male or female) who mostly provide lip service in these matters (or do community stuff because of contractual obligations).
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Re: The Maya Moore Thread 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Apr 18, 2025 8:05 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Reasonable high praise imho, though of course LeBron's longevity is entirely different.

Stylistically, I might say she's Larry Bird meets Michael Jordan.

I'll also say that the most similar current star is her protégé, and fellow Husky & Lynx, Napheesa Collier, which I don't think is a coincidence.

I was just thinking Lebron because you said jack of all trades and 4 rings and there's like the whole team is terrible when she's out thing.

Larry Jordan is cool too. Was she like a DPOY type of gal?

So, I would say she was, but she was not given accolades on that level. While there's no doubt that her defense is praised, and she did make All-D twice, there's a major gap between that consensus and what I've seen looking back with data I really just think they weren't really aware of when Moore played.

So it's been a while but did you write on my post? I don't think I said the end part but thanks for the info.


Oof, sorry about that. Yeah, hit the wrong button.

I've edited your original post back. If you'd like me to do more, just say the word.
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