Post Mortem #7 - Toronto Raptors

[littlerock2277]

Change (GM), keep, as expected, treadmill.

Masai can stay for however long he wants, man did what I viewed as the impossible. Provided a championship to a franchise that faces too many challenges as a sports franchise competing with American cities. He has earned the right to at least see through whatever he is planning. He has a good draft record, I wouldn’t write him off just because of a couple of bad seasons.

[shangrila]

I don't understand the plan. They're paying top dollar for a mid-team. If they get lucky in the lottery, maybe their future looks better but right now they look like a 6th seed at absolute best.

They are doing a two timeline approach and have a view that it's more about environment and culture rather than raw talent when it comes to prospects and developing stars.

I don't buy that the "two timelines" ever really works. There's one notable example in the Spurs who were realistically just lucky to go from one HOF big to another. Most other examples of it seem to fail.

That said, if the idea is to be competent and trade for a disgruntled star...sure, I could see that. And focusing on culture is good in general.

[giberish]

I thought they'd back into a play-in spot, but Quickley's injuries really stopped that - even when he was on-court he wasn't really healthy.

If IQ can be fully back healthy next season that's a big help. I'm somewhat skeptical about Ingram/Barrett/Barnes 2-4 part of the rotation though. I'm not convinced any of them are all that effective without the ball, and there's only one ball to go around. Of course if they can't get healthy it won't matter.

[MGB8]

Underperformed due to injury and some weird lineup choices. Barnes should be the secondary ball handler, not primary. Quickly is fine but was hurt a lot, and they traded away the backup point. RJ hurt. Grady hurt. A general lack of shooting on the team in a basketball league that is currently all about shooting. SECOND TO LAST in 3PM. 24th in 3 pt percentage. Yeah, Orlando is worse, but they make up for it on Defense - a top 3 ; TO doesn’t, pretty mid on D.

[Hoop Hunter]

Don't really understand the vision for Toronto (and Sac)

I was thinking the same thing, Toronto and Sac seem to be on the very same path: locked into mediocrity. I think Masai probably and McNair 100%, absolutely need to go.

I think Toronto has a better outlook than the Kings. The Kings had what looked like a up and coming team, now they have a backcourt that Chicago was just praying to get rid of.

[Duffman100]

Underperformed due to injury and some weird lineup choices. Barnes should be the secondary ball handler, not primary. Quickly is fine but was hurt a lot, and they traded away the backup point. RJ hurt. Grady hurt. A general lack of shooting on the team in a basketball league that is currently all about shooting. SECOND TO LAST in 3PM. 24th in 3 pt percentage. Yeah, Orlando is worse, but they make up for it on Defense - a top 3 ; TO doesn’t, pretty mid on D.

In all fairness they traded Davion because Shead (who is one of their rookie 2nd rounders) is looking like a top tier backup PG for next year.

[Baz]

The Raptors are a 2019 Kawhi away. I think that's their plan. To stay above water with a treadmill team, trade for a superstar at an opportune moment and smash and grab another title.

[Bad Bart]

Don't really understand the vision for Toronto (and Sac)

I was thinking the same thing, Toronto and Sac seem to be on the very same path: locked into mediocrity. I think Masai probably and McNair 100%, absolutely need to go.

I think Toronto has a better outlook than the Kings. The Kings had what looked like a up and coming team, now they have a backcourt that Chicago was just praying to get rid of.

Haha! Very true, Kings are lost.

[FarBeyondDriven]

sometimes teams need new energy and I think that's true with the Raptors just like it was true for the Celtics going from Ainge to Stevens. Barring them winning the lottery and getting a top 3 pick the Raptors are just going to continue being irrelevant.

[yellowknifer]

Meaningless wins post all star break.
Barnes ain't the superstar they projected him to be but he will be an allstar caliber player for years.
They need to find their main guy.

I think the Masai era must end.
He needs motives and in Toronto they need a change.

It was a very successful run, a great decade for Toronto.

Barnes has serious offensive issues. He probably will make more all star teams, but his most value will come as a defender. He’s rough enough on offense that he couldn’t possibly be considered a positive asset. His best skill is passing the ball but he’s not the guy you want to run your offense through right now. I think he will improve. I think he will become a solid player on that end eventually once he settles down and he is asked to be a 5th option scoring. He gets open. He gets great position consistently. He doesn’t finish or shoot consistently. I don’t know if he has it in him now. He definitely doesn’t have a shooters build. His arms are crazy long and his hands are massive. But his inability to finish close to the basket consistently is what really hurts. He is huge and fast and strong. Good enough handle to get to good spots. Doesn’t finish efficiently at all. Slow making a decision.

Then his attitude is and will be consistently questioned. His body language is bad way too often. Fred gave him hella **** for his attitude when he was here and I think he knows what it takes to make it more than most.

[DKB333]

Scottie Barnes is frustrating. He fluctuates from good season to bad season. He wins ROY and then slumps in year two. He sneaks onto the All-Star team in year three and then slumps again this season. The shine is starting to wear off to me with him. Depending on what happens in the lottery could change the long-term outlook for sure, but going into next year I imagine the goal is to sneak into the top 6.

The team is very young so there is hope that players will improve. The will card is BI obviously. I have no idea how he will fit but it should help to have someone that can create their own shot at the end of games. I understand that most poster are down on BI but maybe a change of scenery will do him well. It is new to have a US born player seemingly wanting to play in Toronto.

[iBall101]

Raps messed up picking up the option for their current coach. Cheaping out on HC's and overpaying Borderline star players will not be a successful strategy. I like the current group but they desperately need an Eric Spoelstra/Mike Malone level coach to elevate the team to a winning culture. I have no faith in Darko's capability to do so. Masai is still the best acquisition in raptors history- he's not the major issue moving forward. Coaching and Player development is the major issue. Scottie needs an Eric Spoelstra to yell at him and hold him and IQ accountable.

[Tacoma]

If Toronto ends up being a 45 win team next year, a superstar could be traded there to push them over the top.

And betweey Quickley, Barrett, Barnes, Ingram and Poeltl there is enough salary and talent to start the trade.

They have a lot of youth to package in - Ochai, Dick, Walter, Shead, Mogbo, Battle, top 10 pick

They have all their 1sts.

It’s not 2019 anymore. The price for a stars has gone up massively and we don’t have the ammo to compete. There are multiple teams laying in wait for a star who a) have more assets than us b) are in more desirable locations or c) have both. If a star becomes available how are we outbidding teams like OKC, HOU, SAS, BKN, etc?

We are not a front runner when it comes to assets. We are not a front runner when it comes to location. How are we competing when it comes to bidding for a star?

Nobody matches OKC. But they're the title favourites anyways, maybe they don't buy the next superstar.
Houston has a good shot, they may run into a matching salary issue.

But how are SAS and BKN ahead of us?

Sure SAS has Wemby, but they don't want to deal Wemby or Castle, so they have worse actual assets.
BKN has worste assets than us.

ConSarnit doesn't even need to argue about SAS or BKN because you've already agreed that OKC and HOU would be frontrunners with better assets than TOR to trade for a disgruntled superstar. And you never know what other surprise team(s) (like TOR in 2018) may pop in to make a bid.

You can counter that TOR has done this before (Kawhi 2018), but today's Raptors team is not 2018 Raptors. Before the trade, that team was on its fourth 50+ win season and had already reached the ECF but couldn't take it to the next level because DeRozan choked in the playoffs. And for whatever reason, Popovich wanted DeRozan and didn't want to deal with LAL - a perfect storm to trade All Star DeRozan for a disgruntled Superstar Kawhi.

Today's Raptors is a far cry from that team, a different universe. Trading one of Raptors All Star (Barnes or Ingram) for a superstar still doesn't get them past BOS or CLE to make the Finals. If they win 2025 lottery and pick up Flagg, that might help but Flagg would be years away from ready.

But that's a Hail Mary scenario & a plan based on that is no plan at all. This may be the source of some people's puzzlement at Toronto direction.

[Memories]

Back to being irrelevant for decades to come Raps fans.

Unless of course you can rent another Kawhi talent for 1 season again.

[Raps in 4]

This team easily wins 40+ games this year without injuries. Scottie, IQ, and RJ missed a combined 90 games this season. BI obviously didn't play a single game for us. Unfortunately, we needed injuries to ensure we got a decent draft pick.

The team is easily going to to be in that 5-8 seed range next season. But I don't see us improving past that unless either one of our prospects takes an unexpected leap forward or we draft a stud this year. I think we've firmly planted ourselves on the treadmill, at least for the time being.

[Raps in 4]

Raps messed up picking up the option for their current coach. Cheaping out on HC's and overpaying Borderline star players will not be a successful strategy. I like the current group but they desperately need an Eric Spoelstra/Mike Malone level coach to elevate the team to a winning culture. I have no faith in Darko's capability to do so. Masai is still the best acquisition in raptors history- he's not the major issue moving forward. Coaching and Player development is the major issue. Scottie needs an Eric Spoelstra to yell at him and hold him and IQ accountable.

The Raptors need a development coach right now, and that's exactly what Darko provides. He also didn't lose the locker room during a tanking season, which is impressive. Picking up his option was definitely the way to go.

[Doctor MJ]

The Raptors are one of the most curious cases in the NBA today. What is the goal? Will they go for POs next year? Were they going for the POs this year?
I mean you don't have BI, Quickley, Barrett, Poetl and then the youngster in Barnes on a roster and say you're rebuilding.
Some nice pieces and a decent coach, but when does that translate into something?

On a completely unrelated note I think the Raps should trade for DDR to bring him home. To allow the all time leader in many categories for the Raps, put even more room between the #1 and #2 on their all time...missed field goal list, games, field goals, FT/FTA, hitting a basket with a toe on the line, and also the scoring list. I mean he would most likely add another #1 ranking in the all time Raps list, TOs too. If he plays the last year he will smash it. Think it makes the most sense and I believe the Kings would see the nostalgic viewpoint of this and be comfortable trading him for whatever the Raps want to give. Hopefully a top 55 protected 2nd.

Yeah this is a team where I'm mostly just curious what others think. I can't say I'd fire Masai so I'm really just curious how he's seeing things right now.

It's interesting. Early in the Lowry Era, the Raptors became a team that seemed to consistently (cross coach) over-perform their talent. Then, beginning in Lowry's final year (which was pandemic year), feels like they consistently underperform it.

LIke they need Ted Lasso to walk in that locker room.

[tsherkin]

The Raptors are one of the most curious cases in the NBA today. What is the goal? Will they go for POs next year? Were they going for the POs this year?
I mean you don't have BI, Quickley, Barrett, Poetl and then the youngster in Barnes on a roster and say you're rebuilding.
Some nice pieces and a decent coach, but when does that translate into something?

On a completely unrelated note I think the Raps should trade for DDR to bring him home. To allow the all time leader in many categories for the Raps, put even more room between the #1 and #2 on their all time...missed field goal list, games, field goals, FT/FTA, hitting a basket with a toe on the line, and also the scoring list. I mean he would most likely add another #1 ranking in the all time Raps list, TOs too. If he plays the last year he will smash it. Think it makes the most sense and I believe the Kings would see the nostalgic viewpoint of this and be comfortable trading him for whatever the Raps want to give. Hopefully a top 55 protected 2nd.

Yeah this is a team where I'm mostly just curious what others think. I can't say I'd fire Masai so I'm really just curious how he's seeing things right now.

It's interesting. Early in the Lowry Era, the Raptors became a team that seemed to consistently (cross coach) over-perform their talent. Then, beginning in Lowry's final year (which was pandemic year), feels like they consistently underperform it.

LIke they need Ted Lasso to walk in that locker room.

I think we were too good to truly tank this year, but injuries and Scottie's shooting really underperformed our potential. We played pretty good D for like half the year, and if we're actually healthy, we have pretty decent depth and what'll probably be some surprising (but certainly not elite) offense.

Barnes had one of the worst volume scoring seasons of the 21st century, which was problematic, so that raises a few questions which the team will have to answer next season. BI should help. Quickley being semi-healthy should help. SOme of the kids look like they have potential, and maybe a decent step forward from Gradey might be of assistance? We'll have to see. Masai has the potential to pop off a random trade at any time, so there's always that to look forward to as well.

[Magic_Johnny12]

I don't understand what direction they're going, especially after trading for Ingram, which is a repeated archetype they have.
I think they need a center who can open the floor (at least a little).
Poelt for WCJ/Goga.
WCJ has been terribly hot, but I think playing for the MAGIC has a lot to do with it (everyone's percentages are dropping there... see KCP, etc.). Select the best guard available. Jakucionis?

WCJ/Goga
Barnes/Barrett
Ingram/Dicks
Agbaji/Walter
IQ/Draft

Tell me again why Orlando does this lol?

[Astaluego]

I don't understand what direction they're going, especially after trading for Ingram, which is a repeated archetype they have.
I think they need a center who can open the floor (at least a little).
Poelt for WCJ/Goga.
WCJ has been terribly hot, but I think playing for the MAGIC has a lot to do with it (everyone's percentages are dropping there... see KCP, etc.). Select the best guard available. Jakucionis?

WCJ/Goga
Barnes/Barrett
Ingram/Dicks
Agbaji/Walter
IQ/Draft

Tell me again why Orlando does this lol?

gets the best player?