Peter Patton, director of player development, won't be back

[GoBlue72391]

AK can't have anybody thinking in the front office, oh well.

[GoBlue72391]

I'm glad to see this. Probably Ron Adams part 2 where you have some underling literally criticizing the organization (Billy, AK, etc?) to the players, which is simply not good whether it's wise insight or not.

Oh, we're just pulling crap out of our asz are we?

[GoBlue72391]

You are well with in your right not to think these guys don't anything or have no idea what they actually do for the Bulls. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree with that.

You can think anything you want, obviously. I'm having a discussion because it seems topical. Are you just upset that I have stated an alternative view?

If I asked you yesterday, how well did we do developing players this year, what grade would you give them?

Our youngish players:

Ayo - cratered
Pat - cratered
Jalen - cratered
Coby - same as previous year
Giddey - progressed significantly as the season went on (improved shooting / foul drawing)
Matas - progressed significantly as the season went on (no prior baseline though and performed overall within reasonable expectations)

Lesser in importance
Philips - no meaningful development
Terry - went from non-NBA player to fringe rotation defensive specialist

Not sure if I'm missing anyone big here in my quick reply.

Seems like a whole lot of love for Patton based on those results.

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

[GoBlue72391]

Point the finger elsewhere why don't you AK.

We became one of the best 3pt shooting team BECAUSE of Peter Patton. It's one of the positive things from a trainwreck of a season. What a joke.

We we're 12th in %. We did make a lot, but that could just as easily be due to better team passing and different personnel than the shooting coach. Like Doug said, it's just a fact that we have absolutely no way to evaluate him.

It's been widely reported that the players like him and Vuc, Giddey, Matas, Terry all made big strides with their shots, with at least a few of them directly crediting Patton. Is that not something to evaluate him on?

[League Circles]

I'm glad to see this. Probably Ron Adams part 2 where you have some underling literally criticizing the organization (Billy, AK, etc?) to the players, which is simply not good whether it's wise insight or not.

Oh, we're just pulling crap out of our asz are we?

Not sure what you mean exactly. What I'm suggesting was reported with Ron Adams and was implied by one of the writers somebody linked in this thread about Patton. Is it hard to believe or something?

[dougthonus]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

[BullChit]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

Agreed.. Outraged is a strong feeling to have for something like this... I'm more perplexed.

When it comes to changes needed this organisation always seems to zig when they need to zag and the most unlikely of people get the axe while others who should go get huge contract extensions.

[GoBlue72391]

I'm glad to see this. Probably Ron Adams part 2 where you have some underling literally criticizing the organization (Billy, AK, etc?) to the players, which is simply not good whether it's wise insight or not.

Oh, we're just pulling crap out of our asz are we?

Not sure what you mean exactly. What I'm suggesting was reported with Ron Adams and was implied by one of the writers somebody linked in this thread about Patton. Is it hard to believe or something?

There's a huge difference between not being a yes man for AK and openly criticizing him to the players.

[League Circles]

Point the finger elsewhere why don't you AK.

We became one of the best 3pt shooting team BECAUSE of Peter Patton. It's one of the positive things from a trainwreck of a season. What a joke.

We we're 12th in %. We did make a lot, but that could just as easily be due to better team passing and different personnel than the shooting coach. Like Doug said, it's just a fact that we have absolutely no way to evaluate him.

It's been widely reported that the players like him and Vuc, Giddey, Matas, Terry all made big strides with their shots, with at least a few of them directly crediting Patton. Is that not something to evaluate him on?

It's incredibly standard for people in the NBA to heap praise on people they work with, deserved or not, so that doesn't mean anything to me. Matas doesn't count as a rookie. His Ignite experience was a joke from what I understand. So sure, some guys had good shooting seasons and others, like Patrick, Ayo, Ball, Carter had bad ones.

Now if some of the guys crediting him had also experienced a couple dozen other shooting coaches magically in their life and were able to speak from a place of honest comparison, it might have some meaning. Otherwise it's just casual language that may or may not be meaningful. It's like reading a product review from someone about the only dishwasher/PC/phone they've ever owned.

[GoBlue72391]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

The way I see it, our most important young pieces made significant strides under Patton, especially with their shots.

Matas, Giddey, Coby. Terry isn't important but his shot went from nonexistent to decent.

Pat has always been ass, so to me that's no one's fault aside from AK extending him to that ludicrous contract.

Ayo was hurt and his shooting seems to fluctuate season to season. Maybe Patton didn't have much of an effect with him, but he did with others.

Vuc's shooting was significantly improved and I believe he was one of the players who credited Patton for the improvement.

Huerter looked like he was on his way out of the league until he got here.

I don't know how much can be credited to Patton exactly, but based strictly on shooting, it seems like he was doing a good job.

And AK has zero leeway for me or anyone else to give him the benefit of the doubt with this decision, especially if the "opinions have to match AK's" reporting is true. That's red flag city to me.

[GoBlue72391]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

Agreed.. Outraged is a strong feeling to have for something like this... I'm more perplexed.

When it comes to changes needed this organisation always seems to zig when they need to zag and the most unlikely of people get the axe while others who should go get huge contract extensions.

I wasn't outraged until I read the part about AK possibly firing him, at least in part, due to opinions that go against his. That's extremely concerning IMO.

[Susan]

https://mendoza.nd.edu/analytics/steve-weinman-bulls/

This **** cracks me up - Steve Weinman was a journalism major and took an internship with the Bulls and somehow landed the head of the analytics role for a major sports team and his most data adjacent fact was that his parents are math teachers.

[kodo]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

Only Coby was above expectations, really? Keeping in mind Patton was brought in specifically for shooting,

Giddey: 33.7% -> 37.8%
Vucevic: 29.4% -> 40.2%
Terry: 23.0% -> 35.6%
Lavine: 34.9% -> 44.6%

But it must also be acknowledged that Patrick & Ayo went down significantly.
Huerter also went from 30% to 38% in Chicago, but hard to say that was specifically Patton since he wasn't with Huerter all season.

It's true to say we don't know how much worse/better they would have shot without Patton, but I don't see any reason to think the Bulls players are forming some kind of conspiracy when they say he's been instrumental to their shooting improvement.
"Coby White: "Working with Peter Patton helped me a lot. I finally started to learn my shot. Before this, everybody said I could really shoot so nobody ever taught me how to learn my shot. I kind of just shot the ball. He’s been a big help in helping me learn my shot, why I miss."

But AK hired him in the first place, so it's easy come easy go I guess.

[dougthonus]

I wasn't outraged until I read the part about AK possibly firing him, at least in part, due to opinions that go against his. That's extremely concerning IMO.

If that's the real reason, I'd agree completely. It might be. I have no insight into it. I take Cowley anonymous quotes as kind of "meh" in their value though.

[FriedRise]

Read on Twitter

[cocktailswith_2short]

That's great billy worked hard to get these guys to buy in and it was paying off now the locker room is disgruntled . It'll be ok I imagine but just why ?

[sco]

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Player development coaches are always beloved. I would love any coach who spent 100s of hours individually dedicated to me too. I don't know that being well liked is the same as being effective, especially in this role where well liked is almost a default as long as you work hard.

I'm not blaming Patton for everything, but under Patton the Bulls certainly just kill it with player development. Maybe it would have been far worse with someone else, maybe it would have been better. We don't really know, but relative to the expected improvement for all of our guys, I think Coby is the only one that was above expectations under Patton.

Again, not saying this move is great, I'm just saying I'm not outraged either.

Honestly, I thought that Patton was just the "3pt shooting coach". If I thought he was in charge of player development, I might have had a different feeling about him. Is there nothing else to player development than 3pt shooting? I know this is a bad example, but I look at PWill and I'd think that nobody EVER spent a second on developing his game. Even when I think about our 3pt shooting, and I guess credit to the offense or that our guys aren't viewed as a 3pt threat other than Coby, but it seems to me that many of our 3pt shots were wide open, with guys having a fair amount of space. When I think of other teams, they are taking 3's quicker and still making them at the same or better clip. The MIA game was like night and day, and our guys couldn't take quick 3's.

I still think AK is a putz, but it's not impossible to make a case for our guys not developing as much as they could.

[Wingy]

Bulls are fully cooked until Reinsdorf is gone.

FTFY

All this debate and speculation about Patton, et al’s performance or lack thereof.

No one has stated one of the most probable, obvious answers.

Like much of corporate America, this cheap ass ownership group wanted to expand or protect their margins and did so by cutting people costs.

[_txchilibowl_]

Have you guys ever fired anyone? You generally don't fire someone who doesn't deserve it. It's a pretty drastic step to take and an uncomfortable one at that.

I need to know more before blindly passing judgment on this move.

[dougthonus]

Honestly, I thought that Patton was just the "3pt shooting coach". If I thought he was in charge of player development, I might have had a different feeling about him. Is there nothing else to player development than 3pt shooting? I know this is a bad example, but I look at PWill and I'd think that nobody EVER spent a second on developing his game. Even when I think about our 3pt shooting, and I guess credit to the offense or that our guys aren't viewed as a 3pt threat other than Coby, but it seems to me that many of our 3pt shots were wide open, with guys having a fair amount of space. When I think of other teams, they are taking 3's quicker and still making them at the same or better clip. The MIA game was like night and day, and our guys couldn't take quick 3's.

I still think AK is a putz, but it's not impossible to make a case for our guys not developing as much as they could.

I actually thought that too, but the articles today clarified that Patton was head of player development and that he had a staff of four reporting to him. The staff directory of the Bulls (at least until changed) would seem to confirm:

https://www.nba.com/bulls/chicago-bulls-staff-directory

Patton - Director of player development

Guys you'd think are under him based on title (and based on today's reporting)
Rancik - Player development specialist
Austin Dufault, LD Williams, Peter Crawford - Coordinators, Player Development

There's no one in the org that would be obviously above Patton in this context.