Official 2024-2025 Magic General Season Thread I

[thelead]

We're still on this conversation? Ya'll are masochists.

[Bensational]

Sticking Boston and Indiana in there is all you need to know about the validity of this argument. Both of those teams sat their entire starting lineups.

And teams “chasing or eliminated from the play in” aren’t good. Like at all.

Teams play 82 games in a season where either team can be anywhere on a spectrum of full-health to injury riddled, coming off rest or on a b2b. Phoenix, Dallas and Sacramento were all legit playoff contenders this season so to suggest they’re not good at all is outright incorrect.

It’s pretty hard to deny that the team has improved and looked better post ASB, just look at the lineup data. Pre-Allstar our top 3 most used 5-man lineups all netrtg negatives and post ASB the two most used 5-man lineups were big positives. It’s much more emblematic of the shift in the team.

[Knightro]

Sticking Boston and Indiana in there is all you need to know about the validity of this argument. Both of those teams sat their entire starting lineups.

And teams “chasing or eliminated from the play in” aren’t good. Like at all.

Teams play 82 games in a season where either team can be anywhere on a spectrum of full-health to injury riddled, coming off rest or on a b2b. Phoenix, Dallas and Sacramento were all legit playoff contenders this season so to suggest they’re not good at all is outright incorrect.

It’s pretty hard to deny that the team has improved and looked better post ASB, just look at the lineup data. Pre-Allstar our top 3 most used 5-man lineups all netrtg negatives and post ASB the two most used 5-man lineups were big positives. It’s much more emblematic of the shift in the team.

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

[eyriq]

We're still on this conversation? Ya'll are masochists.

I quite enjoy it. I think there is clear evidence we have one of the best young cores of all time and provide evidence. I think we've overperformed post-deadline and provide evidence. They say it's goofy and are triggered by optimism. It's silly but I enjoy it regardless.

[SOUL]

This was a horrid shooting team but I don't think a "bad" team overall. The stretch where we lost to TOR/TOR/CHI was definitely our worst of the year. But looking at records alone without contextualizing or only saying "we beat bad teams" is pretty useless if you're not comparing it to other teams as well. We are definitely not an upper echelon team right now and our ceiling is low because of our offense currently. Knicks also beat a lot of bad teams and didn't beat many good teams, but I don't think people would call them a bad team overall.

We had a whole 5 games with our top 3 players together, two of them Franz was sick and left during the half. Our 6MOTY contender tore their ACL halfway through, Paolo/Franz missed a month/months, and we still made it to .500 while being literally one of the worst shooting teams in modern NBA history.

Look at the three point percentage of the bottom teams in the league and they're all lottery like 10-25 win teams. We still made it to .500 despite that because we're a good-great team in other areas.

It's a fruitless discussion because we're 99% going to lose in the first round anyway and injuries are part of the game, but the team isn't that far away from 50+ wins. Get improvement from young stars, getting a guard with gravity/shooting, and having a few more dependable vets/role guys. They certainly have the picks/players to work on the latter two areas, and the first one you just hope Paolo/Franz keep adding to their game since they're 22-23.

[eyriq]

we're 99% going to lose in the first round anyway.

92%* likely to lose in the first round

[Bensational]

Sticking Boston and Indiana in there is all you need to know about the validity of this argument. Both of those teams sat their entire starting lineups.

And teams “chasing or eliminated from the play in” aren’t good. Like at all.

Teams play 82 games in a season where either team can be anywhere on a spectrum of full-health to injury riddled, coming off rest or on a b2b. Phoenix, Dallas and Sacramento were all legit playoff contenders this season so to suggest they’re not good at all is outright incorrect.

It’s pretty hard to deny that the team has improved and looked better post ASB, just look at the lineup data. Pre-Allstar our top 3 most used 5-man lineups all netrtg negatives and post ASB the two most used 5-man lineups were big positives. It’s much more emblematic of the shift in the team.

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

What are you looking to achieve other than spreading doubt and hopelessness? It’s the playoffs dude, now is the time to cast off doubt and to irrationally cheer for victory regardless of the odds. Remember how you wanted to check out of the playoffs last year when Suggs got hurt in game 2 but then the team managed to make it a 7-game series? Is it too much to ask for 2-3 weeks of optimism?

[KillMonger]

We're going to need more JI minutes

Sent from my [Sidekick 5G] using RealGM mobile app

[Knightro]

Teams play 82 games in a season where either team can be anywhere on a spectrum of full-health to injury riddled, coming off rest or on a b2b. Phoenix, Dallas and Sacramento were all legit playoff contenders this season so to suggest they’re not good at all is outright incorrect.

It’s pretty hard to deny that the team has improved and looked better post ASB, just look at the lineup data. Pre-Allstar our top 3 most used 5-man lineups all netrtg negatives and post ASB the two most used 5-man lineups were big positives. It’s much more emblematic of the shift in the team.

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

What are you looking to achieve other than spreading doubt and hopelessness? It’s the playoffs dude, now is the time to cast off doubt and to irrationally cheer for victory regardless of the odds. Remember how you wanted to check out of the playoffs last year when Suggs got hurt in game 2 but then the team managed to make it a 7-game series? Is it too much to ask for 2-3 weeks of optimism?

The false levels of optimism turn me off honestly.

I’m a realist. This team is about to get absolutely drilled by a real title contender and will expose a lot of the very serious issues that need to be addressed as soon as possible for this organization to actually accomplish something real.

Sitting here and essentially pretending that things are better than they actually are because they played better against a soft schedule over the last month of the season just does nothing for me.

[RichCollab]

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

What are you looking to achieve other than spreading doubt and hopelessness? It’s the playoffs dude, now is the time to cast off doubt and to irrationally cheer for victory regardless of the odds. Remember how you wanted to check out of the playoffs last year when Suggs got hurt in game 2 but then the team managed to make it a 7-game series? Is it too much to ask for 2-3 weeks of optimism?

The false levels of optimism turn me off honestly.

I’m a realist. This team is about to get absolutely drilled by a real title contender and will expose a lot of the very serious issues that need to be addressed as soon as possible for this organization to actually accomplish something real.

Sitting here and essentially pretending that things are better than they actually are because they played better against a soft schedule over the last month of the season just does nothing for me.

Who let this guy in? Must be friends with Shaq or something.

I’m riding and dieing with this team until we out!

[Bensational]

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

What are you looking to achieve other than spreading doubt and hopelessness? It’s the playoffs dude, now is the time to cast off doubt and to irrationally cheer for victory regardless of the odds. Remember how you wanted to check out of the playoffs last year when Suggs got hurt in game 2 but then the team managed to make it a 7-game series? Is it too much to ask for 2-3 weeks of optimism?

The false levels of optimism turn me off honestly.

I’m a realist. This team is about to get absolutely drilled by a real title contender and will expose a lot of the very serious issues that need to be addressed as soon as possible for this organization to actually accomplish something real.

Sitting here and essentially pretending that things are better than they actually are because they played better against a soft schedule over the last month of the season just does nothing for me.

Why are you here then if you’re so defeatist? Take a time out until the offseason because we’ve had the negativity and Debbie Downers all season long. Hell we’ve had it non-stop for years. Now is the time to try the other side of sports for a couple of weeks and cheer the team on. It’ll feel better than if the team gets a win and you’re focused on trying to tell everyone that it doesn’t matter and the team sucks. Cos whatever you’re doing at the moment clearly isn’t bringing you any enjoyment from being a fan.

[Knightro]

Why are you here then if you’re so defeatist? Take a time out until the offseason because we’ve had the negativity and Debbie Downers all season long. Hell we’ve had it non-stop for years. Now is the time to try the other side of sports for a couple of weeks and cheer the team on. It’ll feel better than if the team gets a win and you’re focused on trying to tell everyone that it doesn’t matter and the team sucks. Cos whatever you’re doing at the moment clearly isn’t bringing you any enjoyment from being a fan.

Because I'm not a child. I have the cognitive capacity to do multiple things at once.

I can cheer with all my might for the Magic to win every playoff game they play. I can have an overwhelming desire to *want* them to win every playoff game they play. I can feel the nervous butterflies in my stomach if a playoff game is close late.

And...

I can know this team is extremely flawed, needs to make significant changes and we frankly shouldn't celebrating being a 7 seed with no chance of realistically contending for anything tangible.

It's possible to be happy to watch playoff games, but also disappointed that this team is a 7 seed and not a 3-6 seed with an actual chance at winning a series.

[eyriq]

If a team finishes under .500, they’re not too good.

Being a “playoff contender” does not mean you’re a good team.

What are you looking to achieve other than spreading doubt and hopelessness? It’s the playoffs dude, now is the time to cast off doubt and to irrationally cheer for victory regardless of the odds. Remember how you wanted to check out of the playoffs last year when Suggs got hurt in game 2 but then the team managed to make it a 7-game series? Is it too much to ask for 2-3 weeks of optimism?

The false levels of optimism turn me off honestly.

I’m a realist. This team is about to get absolutely drilled by a real title contender and will expose a lot of the very serious issues that need to be addressed as soon as possible for this organization to actually accomplish something real.

Sitting here and essentially pretending that things are better than they actually are because they played better against a soft schedule over the last month of the season just does nothing for me.

When "toxic optimism" enters your lexicon it's probably time for a break.

[eyriq]

Three pillars of optimism

1. Young core achieved rare success, 93rd percentile in wins last season
2. Mosley has coached an elite defense through massive in-season discontinuity, has established a winning identity
3. Even through injuries and without Suggs and Moritz, Paolo and Franz have leveled up and have the team playing at last season's standard since the trade deadline

[MasterGMer]

Why are you here then if you’re so defeatist? Take a time out until the offseason because we’ve had the negativity and Debbie Downers all season long. Hell we’ve had it non-stop for years. Now is the time to try the other side of sports for a couple of weeks and cheer the team on. It’ll feel better than if the team gets a win and you’re focused on trying to tell everyone that it doesn’t matter and the team sucks. Cos whatever you’re doing at the moment clearly isn’t bringing you any enjoyment from being a fan.

Because I'm not a child. I have the cognitive capacity to do multiple things at once.

I can cheer with all my might for the Magic to win every playoff game they play. I can have an overwhelming desire to *want* them to win every playoff game they play. I can feel the nervous butterflies in my stomach if a playoff game is close late.

And...

I can know this team is extremely flawed, needs to make significant changes and we frankly shouldn't celebrating being a 7 seed with no chance of realistically contending for anything tangible.

It's possible to be happy to watch playoff games, but also disappointed that this team is a 7 seed and not a 3-6 seed with an actual chance at winning a series.

lol. I like it. That pretty explains myself also.

I know Magic has a chance. But I won't get my hopes up too high either

[Idiosyncratic]

I think it is OK to be excited about the core and hitting on 3 straight picks in Paolo, Franz and Suggs. Even if they are high picks just looking at even just the list eyriq posted there are a lot of duds picked that high. Maybe AB will make it 4 straight hits? Not impossible.

I think it is also OK to be upset at the moves or lack thereof outside of those picks.

I think overall we are still in a pretty decent spot going forward.

As far as the playoffs and deadline stuff it would have been really cool to win a series for sure, but I think AB remaining in the rotation and improving is at least some kind of win. He may have stayed in the rotation regardless, but I am happy with how his season ended so I'll take the outcome we got. Ultimate goal would always be to see how we stack up against the Celtics and I think even with an addition they are destroying us this year. I hope I'm wrong and these games are competitive , we'll see.

[Bensational]

Why are you here then if you’re so defeatist? Take a time out until the offseason because we’ve had the negativity and Debbie Downers all season long. Hell we’ve had it non-stop for years. Now is the time to try the other side of sports for a couple of weeks and cheer the team on. It’ll feel better than if the team gets a win and you’re focused on trying to tell everyone that it doesn’t matter and the team sucks. Cos whatever you’re doing at the moment clearly isn’t bringing you any enjoyment from being a fan.

Because I'm not a child. I have the cognitive capacity to do multiple things at once.

I can cheer with all my might for the Magic to win every playoff game they play. I can have an overwhelming desire to *want* them to win every playoff game they play. I can feel the nervous butterflies in my stomach if a playoff game is close late.

And...

I can know this team is extremely flawed, needs to make significant changes and we frankly shouldn't celebrating being a 7 seed with no chance of realistically contending for anything tangible.

It's possible to be happy to watch playoff games, but also disappointed that this team is a 7 seed and not a 3-6 seed with an actual chance at winning a series.

When do we get to see any side other than pure-skepticism? You gonna fire up that capacity to cheer for your team with all your might any time soon, or in any visible manner?

I’m pretty sure all of us *know* the realistic ceiling on the team. The point for the moment is to hope they can defy it for 4-16 games. This is the one time of year to enjoy a little hope even if we know it’s irrational.

[MasterGMer]

I think it is OK to be excited about the core and hitting on 3 straight picks in Paolo, Franz and Suggs. Even if they are high picks just looking at even just the list eyriq posted there are a lot of duds picked that high. Maybe AB will make it 4 straight hits? Not impossible.

I think it is also OK to be upset at the moves or lack thereof outside of those picks.

I think overall we are still in a pretty decent spot going forward.

As far as the playoffs and deadline stuff it would have been really cool to win a series for sure, but I think AB remaining in the rotation and improving is at least some kind of win. He may have stayed in the rotation regardless, but I am happy with how his season ended so I'll take the outcome we got. Ultimate goal would always be to see how we stack up against the Celtics and I think even with an addition they are destroying us this year. I hope I'm wrong and these games are competitive , we'll see.

I think in terms of this rebuild, Magic can both succeed or under achieve. Even though it is not 50/50, but it is so bilateral and can go either way just because of one thing or two. What does that mean?

It means, as of right now, we do not have what it takes to succeed. (If we somehow beat Boston in 7, I'd change my stance). But this rebuild and championship building is not over yet, it is not done. Do we still need to draft well? Probably not. We are done lottery hunting. But we do need a star or a change or two to take us to the next level. Hence, i started the discussion that "how could we change from Playoff contender to Championship Contender". Lots of things depending on which model you follow can change the narrative. Like an addition of Naz Reid in the offseason ( Naz Reid has a player option this upcoming summer and he was only paid 13M plus he was the sixth man of the year) Or we could do somewhat a blockbuster trade to bring in another star. ( Which is hard since Jeff Weltman's track record)

There is no absolute textbook model or absolute safe plus right way to go in a rebuild. Everything is so fluid One move can make the franchise and one move can doom the franchise.

But I am absolutely positive what we are having will eventually lead to the road of success. But this summer is critical. Not only we have two first round picks. But also we have Paolo's Rookie Max coming up. Plus we probably won't have cap space, a trade or two should be the next in line imo.

Good luck, Magic, for tomorrow at Boston! Let's get it! Do I expect a franchise changing playoff run or series? Yes and probably not. But still, it is the game of basketball and anything can happen. Go Magic!

[eyriq]

I think it is OK to be excited about the core and hitting on 3 straight picks in Paolo, Franz and Suggs. Even if they are high picks just looking at even just the list eyriq posted there are a lot of duds picked that high. Maybe AB will make it 4 straight hits? Not impossible.

I think it is also OK to be upset at the moves or lack thereof outside of those picks.

I think overall we are still in a pretty decent spot going forward.

As far as the playoffs and deadline stuff it would have been really cool to win a series for sure, but I think AB remaining in the rotation and improving is at least some kind of win. He may have stayed in the rotation regardless, but I am happy with how his season ended so I'll take the outcome we got. Ultimate goal would always be to see how we stack up against the Celtics and I think even with an addition they are destroying us this year. I hope I'm wrong and these games are competitive , we'll see.

I've been thinking about the deadline decision to stand pat. Is there evidence that this was the right decision?

I ultimately don't think there is. Yes, we overperformed expectations to an extent. I attribute that to
1. Paolo and Franz getting back to 100%, and
2. expectations factoring in that we stood pat.

Suggs eventually getting ruled out for the season and CoJo winning his starting job to me are huge knocks against Weltman's decision to stand pat. In no world is it acceptable that a team's third string journeyman ends up starting. That is just not a serious build IMO.

So while I think Mosley, Paolo, and Franz all deserve credit for the positive post-deadline play, Weltman takes an L for standing pat at the deadline because we are forced to start CoJo when there were most likely better options out there.

[Idiosyncratic]

I think it is OK to be excited about the core and hitting on 3 straight picks in Paolo, Franz and Suggs. Even if they are high picks just looking at even just the list eyriq posted there are a lot of duds picked that high. Maybe AB will make it 4 straight hits? Not impossible.

I think it is also OK to be upset at the moves or lack thereof outside of those picks.

I think overall we are still in a pretty decent spot going forward.

As far as the playoffs and deadline stuff it would have been really cool to win a series for sure, but I think AB remaining in the rotation and improving is at least some kind of win. He may have stayed in the rotation regardless, but I am happy with how his season ended so I'll take the outcome we got. Ultimate goal would always be to see how we stack up against the Celtics and I think even with an addition they are destroying us this year. I hope I'm wrong and these games are competitive , we'll see.

I've been thinking about the deadline decision to stand pat. Is there evidence that this was the right decision?

I ultimately don't think there is. Yes, we overperformed expectations to an extent. I attribute that to
1. Paolo and Franz getting back to 100%, and
2. expectations factoring in that we stood pat.

Suggs eventually getting ruled out for the season and CoJo winning his starting job to me are huge knocks against Weltman's decision to stand pat. In no world is it acceptable that a team's third string journeyman ends up starting. That is just not a serious build IMO.

So while I think Mosley, Paolo, and Franz all deserve credit for the positive post-deadline play, Weltman takes an L for standing pat at the deadline because we are forced to start CoJo when there were most likely better options out there.

I mean I would have considered selectively buying. I think a 1st for a guy like Coby or Sexton would have been fine, but we don't know if the price was higher. I'm just looking around at who actually got dealt and I don't see much that would have moved the needle here. A small deal like the Pistons made for Schroder/Waters probably would have been good, or like the Davion Mitchell trade for the Heat which turned out to be fantastic for them. But realistically CoJo has put up production on par with those guys.

And then Suggs was ruled out for the year making it seem even more like pushing some chips in would not have yielded great returns, I'm glad they have all assets intact for the offseason at this point. I think they did a somewhat OK job salvaging the end of the season as is.

So yeah I agree at this point that a Coby White type acquisition probably would have been good, but not knowing the price I can't say for sure. Given who did get dealt and how CoJo and AB played to close out the year I'm not too upset with the outcome. We have everything available to use in the offseason with a clean slate to compete for better seeding than we did at the deadline. Hopefully Weltman makes some moves this time.