Middleton/Johnson to Wash for Kuzma/Baldwin

[Bernman]

There were a lot of other, better ways to cut costs, that didn't include taking on a player for an extra yr making 20 million per. Attaching AJJ/Smith/& or 2nd to Pat and having them be absorbed into space/trade exception would have saved more $ now, let alone later.

I also think Khris would have agreed to waive his option, as long as he could make more $ overall, (say 3/40), if it meant he could finish his career here. Look how much being traded hurt him. Their actions were more disinterest in Khris & interest in Kuz than 2nd apron + tax considerations.

[Baddy Chuck]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

[Bernman]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The theory it's wildly, optimistically speculative they could have moved Pat C for the packages suggested is wildly, pessimistically speculative.

“A quick poll of NBA executives conducted by The Athletic estimated the current price to dump Connaughton’s contract is three or four second-round picks or a late first-round pick in the next few seasons.”

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/bucks-considering-moving-veteran-guard-before-trade-deadline-report-01jk95ycb2gy

AJJ was a later 1st himself, 23rd. Tyler Smith was near the top of the 2nd rd, 33rd. And our 2nd rd pick projects to be high 2nd, in the 30s. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 3 2nd rd picks that average 45th. So it took the AJJ/Smith/2nd package, or (much) less.

That's not easily moving him either. I didn't want to give away AJJ ideally. And Washington insisted on him. Claimed they valuated him at mid 1st this last draft. But we had the lack of sense to not only trade Middleton when he had the most value to us, but dealt him to the team he had the least value to on account they were hard tanking. Him being a winning player hurt their objectives. The Bucks locked in on Kuzma, after LaVine & Butler went by the wayside. We were reported to be interested in Kuzma a while before the trade happened.

[msiris]

There were a lot of other, better ways to cut costs, that didn't include taking on a player for an extra yr making 20 million per. Attaching AJJ/Smith/& or 2nd to Pat and having them be absorbed into space/trade exception would have saved more $ now, let alone later.

I also think Khris would have agreed to waive his option, as long as he could make more $ overall, (say 3/40), if it meant he could finish his career here. Look how much being traded hurt him. Their actions were more disinterest in Khris & interest in Kuz than 2nd apron + tax considerations.

What sucks is that most of us would have not done this trade and yet our GM makes millions doing a trade that made no sense. Like you said here had be a better ways to get under the cap if that was your goal. If not your player evaluation really sucks. Lol

[Baddy Chuck]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The theory it's wildly, optimistically speculative they could have moved Pat C for the packages suggested is wildly, pessimistically speculative.

“A quick poll of NBA executives conducted by The Athletic estimated the current price to dump Connaughton’s contract is three or four second-round picks or a late first-round pick in the next few seasons.”

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/bucks-considering-moving-veteran-guard-before-trade-deadline-report-01jk95ycb2gy

AJJ was a later 1st himself, 23rd. Tyler Smith was near the top of the 2nd rd, 33rd. And our 2nd rd pick projects to be high 2nd, in the 30s. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 3 2nd rd picks that average 45th.

Meh, Jazz got 4 seconds, double cash trade additions and a 2nd round pick swap for adding the equivalent of Pat's expiring salary this season.

[Bernman]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The theory it's wildly, optimistically speculative they could have moved Pat C for the packages suggested is wildly, pessimistically speculative.

“A quick poll of NBA executives conducted by The Athletic estimated the current price to dump Connaughton’s contract is three or four second-round picks or a late first-round pick in the next few seasons.”

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/bucks-considering-moving-veteran-guard-before-trade-deadline-report-01jk95ycb2gy

AJJ was a later 1st himself, 23rd. Tyler Smith was near the top of the 2nd rd, 33rd. And our 2nd rd pick projects to be high 2nd, in the 30s. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 3 2nd rd picks that average 45th.

Meh, Jazz got 4 seconds, double cash trade additions and a 2nd round pick swap for adding the equivalent of Pat's expiring salary this season.

Meh, this report was for Pat directly. You have an inarguable position. It's a matter of if we were willing to give up AJJ & Smith (+a 2nd) at once.

[Baddy Chuck]

Meh, this report was for Pat directly. You have an inarguable position. It's a matter of if we were willing to give up AJJ & Smith (+a 2nd) at once.

My inarguable position of what a team with cap space ACTUALLY spent their cap space on? It's cool that people thought it would take 3 to 4 seconds to move Pat's 9.5 this year and 9.5 next year, a team who was actually dealing in cap space got more than that without removing flexibility and adding an extra year of Pat on top. That's one thing I know happened for for sure.

[msiris]

The theory it's wildly, optimistically speculative they could have moved Pat C for the packages suggested is wildly, pessimistically speculative.


https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/bucks-considering-moving-veteran-guard-before-trade-deadline-report-01jk95ycb2gy

AJJ was a later 1st himself, 23rd. Tyler Smith was near the top of the 2nd rd, 33rd. And our 2nd rd pick projects to be high 2nd, in the 30s. That's worth a heck of a lot more than 3 2nd rd picks that average 45th.

Meh, Jazz got 4 seconds, double cash trade additions and a 2nd round pick swap for adding the equivalent of Pat's expiring salary this season.

Meh, this report was for Pat directly. You have an inarguable position. It's a matter of if we were willing to give up AJJ & Smith (+a 2nd) at once.

Then we could have gotten KPJ right? If that is true I would have traded two unproven rookies for that.

[paulpressey25]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The reports seemed to indicate it would have taken the 2031 first. Cap space was king for teams willing to help out 2nd apron teams.

Nobody wanted to touch Pat without big compensation. And you needed to find a team with cap space to absorb his contract.

[Bernman]

Meh, Jazz got 4 seconds, double cash trade additions and a 2nd round pick swap for adding the equivalent of Pat's expiring salary this season.

Meh, this report was for Pat directly. You have an inarguable position. It's a matter of if we were willing to give up AJJ & Smith (+a 2nd) at once.

Then we could have gotten KPJ right? If that is true I would have traded two unproven rookies for that.

Yes, the KPJ trade wasn't dependent upon anything else. It was a separate trade in which we took back a little less salary.

[Bernman]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The reports seemed to indicate it would have taken the 2031 first. Cap space was king for teams willing to help out 2nd apron teams.

Nobody wanted to touch Pat without big compensation. And you needed to find a team with cap space to absorb his contract.

I showed the report. It was 3-4 seconds or a late 1st per rival execs. A '31 1st got 3 other 1sts. That was 1 of the most valuable assets in the market. It's an insane price just to take on a salary under 10 mill per for 2 seasons. And he's a guy who arguably should be playing for us right now.

Also, a team didn't need cap space, just a trade exception large enough, while staying under an apron maybe.

[msiris]

Meh, this report was for Pat directly. You have an inarguable position. It's a matter of if we were willing to give up AJJ & Smith (+a 2nd) at once.

Then we could have gotten KPJ right? If that is true I would have traded two unproven rookies for that.

Yes, the KPJ trade wasn't dependent upon anything else. It was a separate trade in which we took back a little less salary.

So we didn't have to be under the 2nd apron for that?

[Bernman]

Then we could have gotten KPJ right? If that is true I would have traded two unproven rookies for that.

Yes, the KPJ trade wasn't dependent upon anything else. It was a separate trade in which we took back a little less salary.

So we didn't have to be under the 2nd apron for that?

No, we could always make 1-for-1 trades, as long as we took back less salary.

[ShootingtheJ]

Kuzma is having some sort of mental issue. Guys who average back to back 21ppg seasons and looked extremely active and motivated his first two weeks here don’t just fall off the edge of a cliff. We’re in some sort of Ben Simmons situation here.

He's just in terrible shape.

[Baddy Chuck]

I still think the "Bucks could have easily just moved Pat C" theory is wildly, optimistically speculative.

The reports seemed to indicate it would have taken the 2031 first. Cap space was king for teams willing to help out 2nd apron teams.

Nobody wanted to touch Pat without big compensation. And you needed to find a team with cap space to absorb his contract.

My opinion would probably be that it wouldn't take the whole 31' first but would probably have taken us finding a Suns' like deal piecing that pick out for others and figuring it out that way.

Consider me cynical but I also think players depreciate FAST after being drafted and two youngsters struggling in the G-League aren't likely holding the value that the lottery ticket at draft time could have presented. Teams always value guys differently. Smith was drafted at 31 and had a worse G-League showing the season after being drafted. Pretty much nobody thought AJ Johnson would be picked 23 but it took one team. OKC traded 5 seconds for the pick 2 after AJ, I don't think any team in the league was trading 5 seconds for Dillon Jones at the deadline.

People can believe whatever they want, hell, some people thought we could trade Ersan for a top 5 pick .

[msiris]

Yes, the KPJ trade wasn't dependent upon anything else. It was a separate trade in which we took back a little less salary.

So we didn't have to be under the 2nd apron for that?

No, we could always make 1-for-1 trades, as long as we took back less salary.

I would have rather pay the 2nd apron tax and got KPJ and kept Mids for one season if Kuz continues to play like a spaz. But being over the 2nd apron we start to lose picks after this year I think. If so then I feel like we were in a no win situation.

[German Athens]

I think the move that was almost assuredly out there would have been 23 to dump Pat at last draft.

I don’t really think they’ve had a longer term vision for quite awhile, though. They just routinely make panic trades while players are at their lowest value.

[RiotPunch]

They just routinely make panic trades while players are at their lowest value.

The Horst way.

[emunney]

Then start a Mids fan club on the Wizards rgm site. Lol

In my experience the best way to kill a thread is to argue in it

True Lol. The thing is I don't think you can find anyone who really liked the trade. In the beginning he played just fine and played some good basketball but some just said Kuzma still sucked because they lost their favorite player. No one said he is better than Mids and he will never will be. He should not be starting. Hoping he does better because than the Bucks would a better chance of winning. So everytime he does poorly this thread will pop up and people will say oh this trade really sucked. No kidding. Nobody really liked it in the first place. Sure I was hoping it worked ot since I am a Bucks fan. But now I am like we might have two more years of this. Oh boy. Could we have gotten KPJ without this trade?

I'm not sure if you're asking that last question wistfully or literally, but in case it's the latter, I think the KPJ trade would have still been legal without the Kuzma trade, because KPJ had the smaller salary and I don't see any reports that we sent out cash in the deal (though it seems like we should have had to).

[emunney]

Kuzma is having some sort of mental issue. Guys who average back to back 21ppg seasons and looked extremely active and motivated his first two weeks here don’t just fall off the edge of a cliff. We’re in some sort of Ben Simmons situation here.

He's just in terrible shape.

Seems like a chicken-or-egg situation to me.