2024-2025 NBA Playoffs Round 1, Game 1: (7) Orlando Magic at (2) Boston Celtics - 3:30pm ET

[KillMonger]

i disagree, i think the role players have a lot to do with it....for example bron was never known for being a great 3pt shooter so spacing was important for him because it didn't allow teams to just load up the paint....bron only recently became a decent shooter that wasn't the case early in his career and certainly wasn't so in his 3rd year....plus 2016 had david blatt as the coach, a coach that's known for offense......nobody would be standing around in a david blatt offense....these things matter it isn't just the individual, that is only part of the equation.....at least how i see it

LeBron overcame his lack of consistent perimeter shooting early in his career by being one of the best passing forwards in the history of the NBA. He was also, especially early in his career, pretty much impossible to keep from getting to the rim because of his athleticism. Luka same thing although it wasn't pure athleticism - it was the ability to get to any spot on the floor off the dribble.

These are historically elite traits Banchero and Wagner simply don't have. They're good passers, but LeBron and Luka are all time great passers.

Banchero and Wagner are very good at getting to the rim and finishing, but Luka, LeBron and Kyrie are all time greats at getting to and finishing at the rim.

And you are incorrect about Blatt. The 2015 Cavs led the NBA in isolations in Blatt's first year. The 2016 Cavs were 5th in the NBA in isolations when Blatt got fired.

Comparing Banchero and Wagner to LeBron and Luka is a bit of a strawman. No one’s saying they’re generational passers or finishers on that level—but holding every young star to that standard misses the point. You don’t need to be an all-time great to be a top option on a contending team.

Banchero is already making some good reads, and Wagner’s slashing and finishing are among the best in the league. They’re not doing it with LeBron-level athleticism or Luka-level control, but they’re producing and doing it without the spacing those guys benefit from. when it comes to blatt you misrepresented what i said about him, i said he wouldn't have us standing around in his offense.....he pretty much ran the princeton offense, if you followed what happened back then iirc blatt's offense was rejected in favor of a more isolation style.....which makes sense if you looked at how he ran offense overseas

[eyriq]

i disagree, i think the role players have a lot to do with it....for example bron was never known for being a great 3pt shooter so spacing was important for him because it didn't allow teams to just load up the paint....bron only recently became a decent shooter that wasn't the case early in his career and certainly wasn't so in his 3rd year....plus 2016 had david blatt as the coach, a coach that's known for offense......nobody would be standing around in a david blatt offense....these things matter it isn't just the individual, that is only part of the equation.....at least how i see it

LeBron overcame his lack of consistent perimeter shooting early in his career by being one of the best passing forwards in the history of the NBA. He was also, especially early in his career, pretty much impossible to keep from getting to the rim because of his athleticism. Luka same thing although it wasn't pure athleticism - it was the ability to get to any spot on the floor off the dribble.

These are historically elite traits Banchero and Wagner simply don't have. They're good passers, but LeBron and Luka are all time great passers.

Banchero and Wagner are very good at getting to the rim and finishing, but Luka, LeBron and Kyrie are all time greats at getting to and finishing at the rim.

And you are incorrect about Blatt. The 2015 Cavs led the NBA in isolations in Blatt's first year. The 2016 Cavs were 5th in the NBA in isolations when Blatt got fired.

Comparing Banchero and Wagner to LeBron and Luka is a bit of a strawman. No one’s saying they’re generational passers or finishers on that level—but holding every young star to that standard misses the point. You don’t need to be an all-time great to be a top option on a contending team.

Banchero is already making some good reads, and Wagner’s slashing and finishing are among the best in the league. They’re not doing it with LeBron-level athleticism or Luka-level control, but they’re producing and doing it without the spacing those guys benefit from. when it comes to blatt you misrepresented what i said about him, i said he wouldn't have us standing around in his offense.....he pretty much ran the princeton offense, if you followed what happened back then iirc blatt's offense was rejected in favor of a more isolation style.....which makes sense if you looked at how he ran offense overseas

Bang on. Focusing on Paolo and Franz at this stage is extremely premature. The hard part is done, we’ve identified our core. Two franchise players out of a rebuild is as good an outcome as you can hope for from an organic rebuild. We’ll visit their quality as a core after we’ve exhausted attempts at optimizing the build around them. 2028 at the earliest. We haven’t even started optimizations yet.

[Skybox]

They out-physical'ed us and physical play is our only equalizer vs a more skilled team. I have to give credit to WCJ...he's the only guy on the team banging with people. Paolo is a super duper star, but the only time he gets physical is to draw fouls - the more I look for evidence, the more I see his massive body staying out of the way on defense...I really hope, somehow, he becomes more of a factor defensively. Franz is a great defender, but he can't bang with anybody - which is fine. Maybe even go with a huge lineup, starting with Franz at PG...he's a great perimeter defender and long enough to help and close out on 3pt shooters. KCP & AB out there too...ORL really is thin on post defenders, even when healthy. I don't mean so much as defending post players, but rebounding on both ends-allowing ONE shot per possession for the opposition and creating extra possessions for ORL. Maybe crashing the offensive glass is a key here. Isaac and AB can defend all over the lineup, so they should have major roles defensively.

Our best chance is to outnumber their possessions through good defense and dominant rebounding and to have a good shooting night...obviously, Paolo & Franz have to do their thing on top of any of this. Mose should tell KCP, Gary and AB that if they don't each get up 5 3pt attempts in the first half, they'll be sitting while Caleb chucks away. We need a big shooting night from someone and if nobody tries, we'll never know. Cole is NOT the answer unless none of the 2-way guys can hit - only then do we unleash the "shoot us into the game or shoot us out of it" guy. I'm not suggesting getting into a shooting contest with the best 3pt shooting team in history, but perimeter scoring HAS to be a factor if ORL has any chance...even just to give BOS something to worry about. They can't stop Paolo & Franz, and clearly didn't need to...but if a guy like Caleb or KCP or AB, etc has a big night and hits on 7-12 3ptas...we're in it.

[Optimus_Steel]

Franz was not good today. Games like today give me doubts on him. Not nearly as effective vs good defenses.

He is going to be fine. Problem is he shouldn’t be bringing up the ball against a smaller pesky and elite defender like Holiday. That’s a roster problem with our lack of competent guards. There was too much of Paolo and Franz bringing the ball up.

[magik9113]

Franz was not good today. Games like today give me doubts on him. Not nearly as effective vs good defenses.

He is going to be fine. Problem is he shouldn’t be bringing up the ball against a smaller pesky and elite defender like Holiday. That’s a roster problem with our lack of competent guards. There was too much of Paolo and Franz bringing the ball up.

My older brother who hasn't watched the Magic or the NBA since we had Dwight...he watched yesterday and was befuddled by our offense. "are there no point guards in the NBA?" "Why do the tall forward guys keep bringing it up?"
"we're the worst offense in the league," was all I could come up with in response.

[tiderulz]

LeBron overcame his lack of consistent perimeter shooting early in his career by being one of the best passing forwards in the history of the NBA. He was also, especially early in his career, pretty much impossible to keep from getting to the rim because of his athleticism. Luka same thing although it wasn't pure athleticism - it was the ability to get to any spot on the floor off the dribble.

These are historically elite traits Banchero and Wagner simply don't have. They're good passers, but LeBron and Luka are all time great passers.

Banchero and Wagner are very good at getting to the rim and finishing, but Luka, LeBron and Kyrie are all time greats at getting to and finishing at the rim.

And you are incorrect about Blatt. The 2015 Cavs led the NBA in isolations in Blatt's first year. The 2016 Cavs were 5th in the NBA in isolations when Blatt got fired.

Comparing Banchero and Wagner to LeBron and Luka is a bit of a strawman. No one’s saying they’re generational passers or finishers on that level—but holding every young star to that standard misses the point. You don’t need to be an all-time great to be a top option on a contending team.

Banchero is already making some good reads, and Wagner’s slashing and finishing are among the best in the league. They’re not doing it with LeBron-level athleticism or Luka-level control, but they’re producing and doing it without the spacing those guys benefit from. when it comes to blatt you misrepresented what i said about him, i said he wouldn't have us standing around in his offense.....he pretty much ran the princeton offense, if you followed what happened back then iirc blatt's offense was rejected in favor of a more isolation style.....which makes sense if you looked at how he ran offense overseas

Bang on. Focusing on Paolo and Franz at this stage is extremely premature. The hard part is done, we’ve identified our core. Two franchise players out of a rebuild is as good an outcome as you can hope for from an organic rebuild. We’ll visit their quality as a core after we’ve exhausted attempts at optimizing the build around them. 2028 at the earliest. We haven’t even started optimizations yet.

if Franz and Paolo dont see better surrounding cast, they will already be gone by 2028.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

They out-physical'ed us and physical play is our only equalizer vs a more skilled team. I have to give credit to WCJ...he's the only guy on the team banging with people. Paolo is a super duper star, but the only time he gets physical is to draw fouls - the more I look for evidence, the more I see his massive body staying out of the way on defense...I really hope, somehow, he becomes more of a factor defensively. Franz is a great defender, but he can't bang with anybody - which is fine. Maybe even go with a huge lineup, starting with Franz at PG...he's a great perimeter defender and long enough to help and close out on 3pt shooters. KCP & AB out there too...ORL really is thin on post defenders, even when healthy. I don't mean so much as defending post players, but rebounding on both ends-allowing ONE shot per possession for the opposition and creating extra possessions for ORL. Maybe crashing the offensive glass is a key here. Isaac and AB can defend all over the lineup, so they should have major roles defensively.

Our best chance is to outnumber their possessions through good defense and dominant rebounding and to have a good shooting night...obviously, Paolo & Franz have to do their thing on top of any of this. Mose should tell KCP, Gary and AB that if they don't each get up 5 3pt attempts in the first half, they'll be sitting while Caleb chucks away. We need a big shooting night from someone and if nobody tries, we'll never know. Cole is NOT the answer unless none of the 2-way guys can hit - only then do we unleash the "shoot us into the game or shoot us out of it" guy. I'm not suggesting getting into a shooting contest with the best 3pt shooting team in history, but perimeter scoring HAS to be a factor if ORL has any chance...even just to give BOS something to worry about. They can't stop Paolo & Franz, and clearly didn't need to...but if a guy like Caleb or KCP or AB, etc has a big night and hits on 7-12 3ptas...we're in it.

Agree with the bolded part, only issue is we'd have to completely flip the way we've been playing and run n gun on the offensive side of the ball. We don't have the guards to do that with and asking Paolo/Franz to speed up would open us to 10+ turnovers a game.

We're in no man's land right now with how the roster is put together. The sad part is we didn't have to be here, but the FO made head scratching decisions and re-signed the known commodities.

I'd rather watch Mac McClung try to run an offense/PnR vs the nightly Cole minutes but that's just me being 3 years done with Cole

[tiderulz]

They out-physical'ed us and physical play is our only equalizer vs a more skilled team. I have to give credit to WCJ...he's the only guy on the team banging with people. Paolo is a super duper star, but the only time he gets physical is to draw fouls - the more I look for evidence, the more I see his massive body staying out of the way on defense...I really hope, somehow, he becomes more of a factor defensively. Franz is a great defender, but he can't bang with anybody - which is fine. Maybe even go with a huge lineup, starting with Franz at PG...he's a great perimeter defender and long enough to help and close out on 3pt shooters. KCP & AB out there too...ORL really is thin on post defenders, even when healthy. I don't mean so much as defending post players, but rebounding on both ends-allowing ONE shot per possession for the opposition and creating extra possessions for ORL. Maybe crashing the offensive glass is a key here. Isaac and AB can defend all over the lineup, so they should have major roles defensively.

Our best chance is to outnumber their possessions through good defense and dominant rebounding and to have a good shooting night...obviously, Paolo & Franz have to do their thing on top of any of this. Mose should tell KCP, Gary and AB that if they don't each get up 5 3pt attempts in the first half, they'll be sitting while Caleb chucks away. We need a big shooting night from someone and if nobody tries, we'll never know. Cole is NOT the answer unless none of the 2-way guys can hit - only then do we unleash the "shoot us into the game or shoot us out of it" guy. I'm not suggesting getting into a shooting contest with the best 3pt shooting team in history, but perimeter scoring HAS to be a factor if ORL has any chance...even just to give BOS something to worry about. They can't stop Paolo & Franz, and clearly didn't need to...but if a guy like Caleb or KCP or AB, etc has a big night and hits on 7-12 3ptas...we're in it.

the only guard close to a 2-way that we have is Suggs. KCP and Black are not, and Harris's best days are behind him.

but our guards have to at least pretend to show up and shoot. I agree, they have to at least make an effort.

[Knightro]

Comparing Banchero and Wagner to LeBron and Luka is a bit of a strawman. No one’s saying they’re generational passers or finishers on that level—but holding every young star to that standard misses the point. You don’t need to be an all-time great to be a top option on a contending team.

Banchero is already making some good reads, and Wagner’s slashing and finishing are among the best in the league. They’re not doing it with LeBron-level athleticism or Luka-level control, but they’re producing and doing it without the spacing those guys benefit from. when it comes to blatt you misrepresented what i said about him, i said he wouldn't have us standing around in his offense.....he pretty much ran the princeton offense, if you followed what happened back then iirc blatt's offense was rejected in favor of a more isolation style.....which makes sense if you looked at how he ran offense overseas

That isn't what I'm doing.

I'm saying if the plan is to ultimately have an offensive system that is, for all intents and purposes, fully designed on Banchero and Wagner's ability to find and exploit mismatches on switches because of their size, ability to win off the dribble, and ability make the right passing reads when the help comes, that is a potentially dangerous bet for the organization because those guys aren't really close to the same caliber of player as LeBron and Luka or Harden (the only guys that style of offense has ever really worked for in recent history).

Again... the spacing isn't bad because of the role players.

The spacing is bad because teams simply do not have to defend Paolo or Franz out to the 3PT line and neither one of them are the kind of elite floor readers and passers to be able to bend the defense with passing.

Teams are comfortable packing the paint to cut off driving lanes and ultimately helping off the Magic's role players because they know Paolo and Franz won't beat them with the 3PT shot and they also don't believe Paolo and Franz will consistently beat them with passing.

[tiderulz]

Franz was not good today. Games like today give me doubts on him. Not nearly as effective vs good defenses.

He is going to be fine. Problem is he shouldn’t be bringing up the ball against a smaller pesky and elite defender like Holiday. That’s a roster problem with our lack of competent guards. There was too much of Paolo and Franz bringing the ball up.

we dont know that though. He still seems to disappear in big games sometimes and his 3 pt shot has gotten worse every year in the league.

[Optimus_Steel]

The things that standout:

-starters 3-5 had 10 combined pts
-3rd highest scorer had 7pts
-17 total bench pts
-13 total guard points

You cant expect to win when that is the production outside of your two stars. Obviously a roster construction issue that wont be addressed until the offseason. In the meantime, need to create movement and move the ball around and make Boston defense move. We cant just go up on a set Boston defense over and over, that will end badly. Paolo and Franz did too much of bringing the ball up-court, that can’t continue unless its in transition. This lead to seconds being wasted and harder to run the offense, rhythm being off, etc. Guys cant be standing around like statues.

[basketballRob]

The Boston guards were 14-22 from 3 , so going small didn't work.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

So, the theory was not to match Kornet's minutes with Goga, so the perimeter defense would be better, and we could keep Cole/Harris in the lineup for offense.

We scored 86 pts. I think our coaches took one in the pooper on this rotation decision.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Optimus_Steel]

Franz was not good today. Games like today give me doubts on him. Not nearly as effective vs good defenses.

He is going to be fine. Problem is he shouldn’t be bringing up the ball against a smaller pesky and elite defender like Holiday. That’s a roster problem with our lack of competent guards. There was too much of Paolo and Franz bringing the ball up.

we dont know that though. He still seems to disappear in big games sometimes and his 3 pt shot has gotten worse every year in the league.

I think he has enough of a sample size that he is going to be ok. He’s had some big playoff games too. His game 4 last year was an absolute masterpiece. Paolo has had some stinkers too, it happens specially with our current roster construction. The 3pt part however who knows but I think atleast he has done it in the past as opposed to never done it

[eyriq]

He is going to be fine. Problem is he shouldn’t be bringing up the ball against a smaller pesky and elite defender like Holiday. That’s a roster problem with our lack of competent guards. There was too much of Paolo and Franz bringing the ball up.

we dont know that though. He still seems to disappear in big games sometimes and his 3 pt shot has gotten worse every year in the league.

I think he has enough of a sample size that he is going to be ok. He’s had some big playoff games too. His game 4 last year was an absolute masterpiece. Paolo has had some stinkers too, it happens specially with our current roster construction. The 3pt part however who knows but I think atleast he has done it in the past as opposed to never done it

Agreed. Using net points to identify the best player in the Cavs series highlights Franz as the best player, contrary to the narrative that came out of that series.

He plays really good at home and his defense travels.

[yoyojw17]

They out-physical'ed us and physical play is our only equalizer vs a more skilled team. I have to give credit to WCJ...he's the only guy on the team banging with people. Paolo is a super duper star, but the only time he gets physical is to draw fouls - the more I look for evidence, the more I see his massive body staying out of the way on defense...I really hope, somehow, he becomes more of a factor defensively. Franz is a great defender, but he can't bang with anybody - which is fine. Maybe even go with a huge lineup, starting with Franz at PG...he's a great perimeter defender and long enough to help and close out on 3pt shooters. KCP & AB out there too...ORL really is thin on post defenders, even when healthy. I don't mean so much as defending post players, but rebounding on both ends-allowing ONE shot per possession for the opposition and creating extra possessions for ORL. Maybe crashing the offensive glass is a key here. Isaac and AB can defend all over the lineup, so they should have major roles defensively.

Our best chance is to outnumber their possessions through good defense and dominant rebounding and to have a good shooting night...obviously, Paolo & Franz have to do their thing on top of any of this. Mose should tell KCP, Gary and AB that if they don't each get up 5 3pt attempts in the first half, they'll be sitting while Caleb chucks away. We need a big shooting night from someone and if nobody tries, we'll never know. Cole is NOT the answer unless none of the 2-way guys can hit - only then do we unleash the "shoot us into the game or shoot us out of it" guy. I'm not suggesting getting into a shooting contest with the best 3pt shooting team in history, but perimeter scoring HAS to be a factor if ORL has any chance...even just to give BOS something to worry about. They can't stop Paolo & Franz, and clearly didn't need to...but if a guy like Caleb or KCP or AB, etc has a big night and hits on 7-12 3ptas...we're in it.

This was something that I noticed. He's not as engaged when the ball is not in his hands. Go hard for rebounds, box out, react to defensive switches and assignments.

I get that he's needed on offense but both sides of the court are needed.

If you're getting double teamed and triple teamed... There has to be open players to pass it to. I know we talk about we need better support ... But it's hard to have confidence in yourself if the game turns into a 1:1 pick up game for long stretches. Hard to stay engaged.... And energy goes low ... Slow to react. Etc. and that can trickle to other aspects of the game too. When Paolo went out... Players stepped up and filled the gaps.... Those players are still here and we should take it to another level.

But ... We've got a great foundation. Franz and Paolo are growing as well... We need to remember that.

Hope we make some adjustments and bring the energy!

[VFX]

Comparing Banchero and Wagner to LeBron and Luka is a bit of a strawman. No one’s saying they’re generational passers or finishers on that level—but holding every young star to that standard misses the point. You don’t need to be an all-time great to be a top option on a contending team.

Banchero is already making some good reads, and Wagner’s slashing and finishing are among the best in the league. They’re not doing it with LeBron-level athleticism or Luka-level control, but they’re producing and doing it without the spacing those guys benefit from. when it comes to blatt you misrepresented what i said about him, i said he wouldn't have us standing around in his offense.....he pretty much ran the princeton offense, if you followed what happened back then iirc blatt's offense was rejected in favor of a more isolation style.....which makes sense if you looked at how he ran offense overseas

That isn't what I'm doing.

I'm saying if the plan is to ultimately have an offensive system that is, for all intents and purposes, fully designed on Banchero and Wagner's ability to find and exploit mismatches on switches because of their size, ability to win off the dribble, and ability make the right passing reads when the help comes, that is a potentially dangerous bet for the organization because those guys aren't really close to the same caliber of player as LeBron and Luka or Harden (the only guys that style of offense has ever really worked for in recent history).

Again... the spacing isn't bad because of the role players.

The spacing is bad because teams simply do not have to defend Paolo or Franz out to the 3PT line and neither one of them are the kind of elite floor readers and passers to be able to bend the defense with passing.

Teams are comfortable packing the paint to cut off driving lanes and ultimately helping off the Magic's role players because they know Paolo and Franz won't beat them with the 3PT shot and they also don't believe Paolo and Franz will consistently beat them with passing.

This is what I was explaining to my brother yesterday.

This whole “you don’t need point guards to orchestrate the offense in 2025” thing only works when the guys running the show are elite volume-ish 3 point shooters that can pull up anywhere in space. Harden and Luka can “run” the show without being a traditional point guard.

Paolo and Franz are not those guys. They aren’t consistent respectable enough shooters to keep defenses honest.

As you’ve stated, teams can just pack the paint and dare everyone to shoot. Orlando’s entire offense is give the ball to Paolo or Franz and get out of the way. Maybe they find you in a collapsing defense on the perimeter if teams aren’t smart enough to read that immediately. That’s it.

The Magic need one of two things to happen to be taken seriously on offense..

1) Paolo and Franz have to become consistent from outside off the dribble. Period.

2) if they can’t do that, then Orlando needs to acquire a point guard to set them up into easier scoring opportunities.

There is no middle ground to this. Those are the options. Acquiring random shooters that will only be touching the ball as an emergency outlet is not a solution. That gets nobody in rhythm and is still an offense predicated on Paolo and Franz ISO’s to the basket. No thanks.

Option 2 is the easiest and clearest solution IF Option 1 never becomes a reality.

Mosely’s job is to sell those guys on the idea that they need to be PUT into better scoring positions rather than focusing on enabling them to create those positions themselves 100% of the time. Is he the coach that can actually do that? Doubtful based on what we’ve seen, but I’ll give him the benefit of doubt should Weltman actually do his job this offseason.

I don’t really care about this series fwiw. It’s not going to tell me anything I don’t already know. It’s going to expose The Magic’s glaring weaknesses, reinforce why the roster doesn’t make sense, and show casuals why Orlando’s offense is one of the worst in the league.

[CLosP]

Teams even the bad ones have guys that can come off the bench and create their own shot. Who besides Paolo/Franz can create their own shot? Stop saying if Paolo/Franz pass more who are they going to give the ball to so they can make a play? Cole? WCJ? AB? Is Jett gonna do something?

We have a bunch of spot up players who can’t be relied to consistently hit spot up shots.

[Def Swami]

Teams even the bad ones have guys that can come off the bench and create their own shot. Who besides Paolo/Franz can create their own shot? Stop saying if Paolo/Franz pass more who are they going to give the ball to so they can make a play? Cole? WCJ? AB? Is Jett gonna do something?

We have a bunch of spot up players who can’t be relied to consistently hit spot up shots.

I completely forgot Jett Howard was on this team. Another fumbled asset (11th pick) by Weltman that doesn't show itself until you're in the playoffs and can't find 8 guys you trust.

[three3d]

I can forgive all and consider this season a win only if it cost Weltman his job. If they run it back with him next season having ANY say or control over the roster any hope will be list. Sitting back and doing absolutely nothing at the trade deadline despite all the injuries the bad draft picks is easily forgettable with a new face and you hope. Someone has to be the fall guy as bad as it’s gone, Weltman is the face of this roster construction he must go

[Bakomagic]

You guys are trying too hard to identify "what went wrong". What went wrong is what we already know: we are a 7th seed and lost to a 2 seed. their stars are better and more experienced at this point, their role players are better and more experienced at this point, and their coaching is better, and that would be the case even if we were at full strength, and we are not, as we are missing two key players in Mo and Suggs.

You are all trying to solve this as if it isn't obvious. I think folks on this board need to reset their expectations for this series and enjoy that our team is battling and will grow from this series, think of it as gambling with house money.

BTW, P5 is now averaging 28pts, 9rbs, and 4ast on 42% shooting on 3pt shots over 8 playoff games against teams with ELITE defense.

He is not a rising star; he is a star now at 22 years old!