Cade Sells KD on Detroit

[NYG]

Ron Holland II, Tobias Harris, Jaden Ivey and Simone Fontecchio for Kevin Durant

I think in a much weaker conference, the upgrade from Tobias to KD is worth the inclusion of the two younger players that Detroit gives up. They would still have solid depth and one of the best duos in the league.

For the Suns, they get some nice prospects in return for KD that could help them retool around Devin Booker.

[GreekAlex]

I love what the Pistons have built and are building.

I’d pass on KD’s golden years.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I hope Detroit realizes they are far more than one player away from a title and continues to develop as they seek out a long-term #2 next to Cade.

A consolidation trade may be required at a point in the future but they aren't ready for it yet.

[zeebneeb]

If KD was 27, I would consider it. Now?

Honestly, no snark, I wouldn't trade one of those guys for him. To much money, to old, guts the team for a has been. KD is done. He is absolutely not a difference maker anymore.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I may be very wrong about this because there is basically no precedent for a player as good and as old as Durant being on the trade market, but I feel like this is a competitive offer for Durant. The Suns get off the money as quickly as letting Durant expire, OR (far more likely) they keep Holland Ivey and/or Hollard around on rookie-scale option years and begin to restock their youth -- Ivey, in particular, looks extension-worthy already, right? I imagine Phoenix fans are hoping for more, but some distant draft picks may not be a better return than these Pistons.

No opinion on the Detroit POV. I just don't know the team well enough to have perspective on Durant's fit or the team's ceiling with him, which would have to be very, very high in order to justify the pieces going out AND KD's next contract. OK, maybe I do have an opinion, albeit under-informed, and it's a skeptical one.

[jredsaz]

As a Suns fan, this is not the correct spot or return. If KDs return is this low Suns will just keep him and work around the edges.

[LarsV8]

This is probably about right on value.

[jredsaz]

Ron Holland II, Tobias Harris, Jaden Ivey and Simone Fontecchio for Kevin Durant

I think in a much weaker conference, the upgrade from Tobias to KD is worth the inclusion of the two younger players that Detroit gives up. They would still have solid depth and one of the best duos in the league.

For the Suns, they get some nice prospects in return for KD that could help them retool around Devin Booker.

I think what is missing here is the obvious goal of a Suns trade.

First, Suns want to build a roster around Book. Tha means defense first. The team was third in the NBA is 3pt%. Clearly that was part KD and the players they bring in shouldn’t be non shooters, but defense is the goal.

Second, they want draft capital. They need flexibility and that’s draft picks.

How that all balances out in late June or early July is up for debate but this return offers neither.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Ron Holland II, Tobias Harris, Jaden Ivey and Simone Fontecchio for Kevin Durant

I think in a much weaker conference, the upgrade from Tobias to KD is worth the inclusion of the two younger players that Detroit gives up. They would still have solid depth and one of the best duos in the league.

For the Suns, they get some nice prospects in return for KD that could help them retool around Devin Booker.

I think what is missing here is the obvious goal of a Suns trade.

First, Suns want to build a roster around Book. Tha means defense first. The team was third in the NBA is 3pt%. Clearly that was part KD and the players they bring in shouldn’t be non shooters, but defense is the goal.

Second, they want draft capital. They need flexibility and that’s draft picks.

How that all balances out in late June or early July is up for debate but this return offers neither.

I feel like the offer is good insofar as it matches salary without sending any bad contracts in return and lands you a solid (and improving from there) 23 year old and a 19 year old with promise. It's better immediate return on investment than draft picks.

However, point taken. The players may not be the right ones, and the priority may be picks after all. The Suns could probably get a defensive difference-maker (albeit in the form of a role player) and/or non-premium draft assets (quantity over quality) for Durant, and that may suit their needs better/facilitate further moves to build a winner around Booker.

From the sound of things so far, Detroit is not the right trade partner.

[jredsaz]

Ron Holland II, Tobias Harris, Jaden Ivey and Simone Fontecchio for Kevin Durant

I think in a much weaker conference, the upgrade from Tobias to KD is worth the inclusion of the two younger players that Detroit gives up. They would still have solid depth and one of the best duos in the league.

For the Suns, they get some nice prospects in return for KD that could help them retool around Devin Booker.

I think what is missing here is the obvious goal of a Suns trade.

First, Suns want to build a roster around Book. Tha means defense first. The team was third in the NBA is 3pt%. Clearly that was part KD and the players they bring in shouldn’t be non shooters, but defense is the goal.

Second, they want draft capital. They need flexibility and that’s draft picks.

How that all balances out in late June or early July is up for debate but this return offers neither.

I feel like the offer is good insofar as it matches salary without sending any bad contracts in return and lands you a solid (and improving from there) 23 year old and a 19 year old with promise. It's better immediate return on investment than draft picks.

However, point taken. The players may not be the right ones, and the priority may be picks after all. The Suns could probably get a defensive difference-maker (albeit in the form of a role player) and/or non-premium draft assets (quantity over quality) for Durant, and that may suit their needs better/facilitate further moves to build a winner around Booker.

From the sound of things so far, Detroit is not the right trade partner.

From everything I’ve hear out of Ishbia, he wants to extend Booker and create, for lack of a better word, grind kind of culture. This just isn’t that.

I think Book has two years to prove himself as the guy with the roster built around him and I’m frankly excited to see it. They had success with that prior to the KD trade.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I think what is missing here is the obvious goal of a Suns trade.

First, Suns want to build a roster around Book. Tha means defense first. The team was third in the NBA is 3pt%. Clearly that was part KD and the players they bring in shouldn’t be non shooters, but defense is the goal.

Second, they want draft capital. They need flexibility and that’s draft picks.

How that all balances out in late June or early July is up for debate but this return offers neither.

I feel like the offer is good insofar as it matches salary without sending any bad contracts in return and lands you a solid (and improving from there) 23 year old and a 19 year old with promise. It's better immediate return on investment than draft picks.

However, point taken. The players may not be the right ones, and the priority may be picks after all. The Suns could probably get a defensive difference-maker (albeit in the form of a role player) and/or non-premium draft assets (quantity over quality) for Durant, and that may suit their needs better/facilitate further moves to build a winner around Booker.

From the sound of things so far, Detroit is not the right trade partner.

From everything I’ve hear out of Ishbia, he wants to extend Booker and create, for lack of a better word, grind kind of culture. This just isn’t that.

I think Book has two years to prove himself as the guy with the roster built around him and I’m frankly excited to see it. They had success with that prior to the KD trade.

And, tbh, I think this is a good point and too often forgotten in a fan environment where how you are trending in the past three weeks outweighs the fundamentals of roster building. Booker remains a solid cornerstone -- a perfect, top 5 guy, no, but only 5 teams have one of those -- worth retooling around. In the various Durant threads, I'm curious whether anybody has tossed an offer out there that fits your criteria. Doesn't seem impossible to meet. Defense and picks and... ?

[LarsV8]

And, tbh, I think this is a good point and too often forgotten in a fan environment where how you are trending in the past three weeks outweighs the fundamentals of roster building. Booker remains a solid cornerstone -- a perfect, top 5 guy, no, but only 5 teams have one of those -- worth retooling around. In the various Durant threads, I'm curious whether anybody has tossed an offer out there that fits your criteria. Doesn't seem impossible to meet. Defense and picks and... ?

The fundamental problem here is that teams are generally in one of following stages of building if they are operating rationally.

1.) Ascending young core, bright future - OKC, Det, Ind, Hou, Orl - Teams that should be relevant for 4-5 years maybe even longer.

These teams are young, usually have some extra assets to spend, maybe some draft picks, or young guys that don't quite fit. They likely have future concerns about salary. These teams are going to be targeting long term fits that can ascend with them.

2.) Peaked, looking for something to put them over the edge - Den, LAC, Bos, Mil, NYK, Cle. Teams that are good now, but could drop off at any moment and forced into a rebuild.

These teams usually don't have many assets left, but are looking for a short term boost to squeeze the best odds they can in the short term. They might be willing to trade some future firsts, but I doubt they will move core rotation guys helping them win at the moment, unless they truly believe their window has closed and they need to swing for the fences. (Which never seems to work out).

3.) Descending teams - Teams that tried to be competitive, but lost major pieces either through decline, injury or mismanagement - SAC, PHX, DAL, PHI, MIA, ChI, ATL, NOP.

These teams are all over the place, but likely have no path forward to contention and need major shakeups. These are real wildcards, but its hard to predict what they will do, or what their mindset is, as there is no obvious path forward.

4.) Rebuilding - Teams in asset collection mode, still trying to move to ascending phase - POR, SAS, UTA, WAS, CHA, BK.

These teams are the least likely to trade for a guy like Durant.

5.) Whatever the hell Toronto is doing.

No one knows....

So if the ask is, who wants a 37 year old declining star in exchange for defense and draft picks.....who exactly is going to provide that?
1.) This group probably has defense and draft picks, but they are...also trying to win....and also trying to manage salary. Why would they trade those things for a short term boost? The reality, is they won't, unless the price is dirt cheap. All these teams are going to have eyes on the big prizes, the guys they can pencil in for 4-5 years. They might trade youth and some lower value picks...like this trade, but I doubt much else.
2.) This is the group that is interested in a guy like Durant. They probably aren't getting any better through development, they might be getting worse due to tax crunches, age, or injury. This is the group who might be desperate enough to throw something out there. But, they don't have many picks, and probably don't want to trade key defensive guys, so what's left? Mostly disappointments or bad fits....Mikal Bridges? Dame Lillard? Jamal Murray? Aaron Gordon? Norm Powell? Porzingas? Jrue?
3.) These teams might want Durant, but absolutely shouldn't, for the exact reason why Phoenix doesn't want him. Maybe they are convinced to rebuild and you can nab a good long term piece in a three way deal, with some team sending picks to the selling team. But why wouldn't the buyer take the Zion, or the AD, or Sabonis for themselves instead of Durant? They probably wouldn't.
4.) None of these teams should want him, but maybe some can facilitate a 3 way. Does Phx want Collins and Sexton, maybe Claxton and Johnson? But again, which team is sending the picks needed to Ainge and Marks to get those guys? Does group 2 have the picks needed to shake those guys loose? Might they just want those role players for themselves?

All of these are going to be clunky trades, for the simple reason that a team is trying to trade Durant....to get better....to a team...probably also trying to get better. I am trying to think of an example where this has happened...ever?

[Tim Lehrbach]

And, tbh, I think this is a good point and too often forgotten in a fan environment where how you are trending in the past three weeks outweighs the fundamentals of roster building. Booker remains a solid cornerstone -- a perfect, top 5 guy, no, but only 5 teams have one of those -- worth retooling around. In the various Durant threads, I'm curious whether anybody has tossed an offer out there that fits your criteria. Doesn't seem impossible to meet. Defense and picks and... ?

The fundamental problem here is that teams are generally in one of following stages of building if they are operating rationally.

1.) Ascending young core, bright future - OKC, Det, Ind, Hou, Orl - Teams that should be relevant for 4-5 years maybe even longer.

These teams are young, usually have some extra assets to spend, maybe some draft picks, or young guys that don't quite fit. They likely have future concerns about salary. These teams are going to be targeting long term fits that can ascend with them.

2.) Peaked, looking for something to put them over the edge - Den, LAC, Bos, Mil, NYK, Cle. Teams that are good now, but could drop off at any moment and forced into a rebuild.

These teams usually don't have many assets left, but are looking for a short term boost to squeeze the best odds they can in the short term. They might be willing to trade some future firsts, but I doubt they will move core rotation guys helping them win at the moment, unless they truly believe their window has closed and they need to swing for the fences. (Which never seems to work out).

3.) Descending teams - Teams that tried to be competitive, but lost major pieces either through decline, injury or mismanagement - SAC, PHX, DAL, PHI, MIA, ChI, ATL, NOP.

These teams are all over the place, but likely have no path forward to contention and need major shakeups. These are real wildcards, but its hard to predict what they will do, or what their mindset is, as there is no obvious path forward.

4.) Rebuilding - Teams in asset collection mode, still trying to move to ascending phase - POR, SAS, UTA, WAS, CHA, BK.

These teams are the least likely to trade for a guy like Durant.

5.) Whatever the hell Toronto is doing.

No one knows....

So if the ask is, who wants a 37 year old declining star in exchange for defense and draft picks.....who exactly is going to provide that?
1.) This group probably has defense and draft picks, but they are...also trying to win....and also trying to manage salary. Why would they trade those things for a short term boost? The reality, is they won't, unless the price is dirt cheap. All these teams are going to have eyes on the big prizes, the guys they can pencil in for 4-5 years. They might trade youth and some lower value picks...like this trade, but I doubt much else.
2.) This is the group that is interested in a guy like Durant. They probably aren't getting any better through development, they might be getting worse due to tax crunches, age, or injury. This is the group who might be desperate enough to throw something out there. But, they don't have many picks, and probably don't want to trade key defensive guys, so what's left? Mostly disappointments or bad fits....Mikal Bridges? Dame Lillard? Jamal Murray? Aaron Gordon? Norm Powell? Porzingas? Jrue?
3.) These teams might want Durant, but absolutely shouldn't, for the exact reason why Phoenix doesn't want him. Maybe they are convinced to rebuild and you can nab a good long term piece in a three way deal, with some team sending picks to the selling team. But why wouldn't the buyer take the Zion, or the AD, or Sabonis for themselves instead of Durant? They probably wouldn't.
4.) None of these teams should want him, but maybe some can facilitate a 3 way. Does Phx want Collins and Sexton, maybe Claxton and Johnson? But again, which team is sending the picks needed to Ainge and Marks to get those guys? Does group 2 have the picks needed to shake those guys loose? Might they just want those role players for themselves?

All of these are going to be clunky trades, for the simple reason that a team is trying to trade Durant....to get better....to a team...probably also trying to get better. I am trying to think of an example where this has happened...ever?

Luka for AD? *ducks*

Appreciate the breakdown. My only quibble would be that GMs are unlikely to slot their teams in your group 3, and some might reject even the group 4 characterization. Hard to say for sure, but more teams than not are probably going to believe (or at least be able to sell) that Durant will help them.

But it's true, once you reduce the potential suitors and try to pinpoint specific players to make a match, it gets considerably harder than my hand waving implied. A better way of asking my question might be: is there a deal out there that sends defense and picks to Phoenix for Durant? Has the board already tried and rejected that framework?

[hcsilla]

If I am the Suns, I take this package. Not my ideal one, it probably might be closer to Ishbia's taste.

Both Ivey and especially Holland are promising young players, while Harris is a solid offensive combo F and Fontecchio can hit some 3s from the bench.

[Saberestar]

Ron Holland II, Tobias Harris, Jaden Ivey and Simone Fontecchio for Kevin Durant

I think in a much weaker conference, the upgrade from Tobias to KD is worth the inclusion of the two younger players that Detroit gives up. They would still have solid depth and one of the best duos in the league.

For the Suns, they get some nice prospects in return for KD that could help them retool around Devin Booker.

I think what is missing here is the obvious goal of a Suns trade.

First, Suns want to build a roster around Book. Tha means defense first. The team was third in the NBA is 3pt%. Clearly that was part KD and the players they bring in shouldn’t be non shooters, but defense is the goal.

Second, they want draft capital. They need flexibility and that’s draft picks.

How that all balances out in late June or early July is up for debate but this return offers neither.

Absolutely.

This offer makes no sense at all for KD. The Pistons would need to add 3 unprotected FRPs to that package to start talking about it.

[Saberestar]

If I am the Suns, I take this package. Not my ideal one, it probably might be closer to Ishbia's taste.

Both Ivey and especially Holland are promising young players, while Harris is a solid offensive combo F and Fontecchio can hit some 3s from the bench.

Promising? Ivey is out with a huge injury and Holland looks a headcase and is a having a disappointing rookie season.

They can be good in the future but we aren't talking about Castle or someone like that here.

The value is not there at all.

[Tim Lehrbach]

If I am the Suns, I take this package. Not my ideal one, it probably might be closer to Ishbia's taste.

Both Ivey and especially Holland are promising young players, while Harris is a solid offensive combo F and Fontecchio can hit some 3s from the bench.

Promising? Ivey is out with a huge injury and Holland looks a headcase and is a having a disappointing rookie season.

They can be good in the future but we aren't talking about Castle or someone like that here.

The value is not there at all.

Major injury for Ivey, yes, but it was a clean break of the fibula from which he should be fully recovered in a couple more months. Any major injury scares a little, but I don't think he comes with the question marks or reduced expectations that would attend some other serious injuries. I would take him on my team.

Like I said above, I can buy that there is a better direction for Phoenix. Accordingly, there are reasons to not favor either player in a return for Durant, but I personally wouldn't count Ivey's injury among them.

Still curious about whether the Suns could pull a current contributor or two, plus future draft capital, for Durant. If the expectations are modest enough, it just seems like it shouldn't be too tough a needle to thread. But, I grant that I haven't come up with an idea, either.

[jayjaysee]

I think Ivey and Holland hold a good amount of value and Phoenix should do the OP, even if they want to flip Ivey..

I would like Det to be aggressive this summer, as I think Cade is ready.. not sure if they should be aggressive for a 37 year old but I’d probably try to counter with one of the two prospects and a future first.

[They_Them_Hatin]

I’m so happy this site is always completely off on value.

KD isn’t going to Detroit anyway. If these trades for him are the offers, Suns might as well keep him.

[They_Them_Hatin]

And, tbh, I think this is a good point and too often forgotten in a fan environment where how you are trending in the past three weeks outweighs the fundamentals of roster building. Booker remains a solid cornerstone -- a perfect, top 5 guy, no, but only 5 teams have one of those -- worth retooling around. In the various Durant threads, I'm curious whether anybody has tossed an offer out there that fits your criteria. Doesn't seem impossible to meet. Defense and picks and... ?

The fundamental problem here is that teams are generally in one of following stages of building if they are operating rationally.

1.) Ascending young core, bright future - OKC, Det, Ind, Hou, Orl - Teams that should be relevant for 4-5 years maybe even longer.

These teams are young, usually have some extra assets to spend, maybe some draft picks, or young guys that don't quite fit. They likely have future concerns about salary. These teams are going to be targeting long term fits that can ascend with them.

2.) Peaked, looking for something to put them over the edge - Den, LAC, Bos, Mil, NYK, Cle. Teams that are good now, but could drop off at any moment and forced into a rebuild.

These teams usually don't have many assets left, but are looking for a short term boost to squeeze the best odds they can in the short term. They might be willing to trade some future firsts, but I doubt they will move core rotation guys helping them win at the moment, unless they truly believe their window has closed and they need to swing for the fences. (Which never seems to work out).

3.) Descending teams - Teams that tried to be competitive, but lost major pieces either through decline, injury or mismanagement - SAC, PHX, DAL, PHI, MIA, ChI, ATL, NOP.

These teams are all over the place, but likely have no path forward to contention and need major shakeups. These are real wildcards, but its hard to predict what they will do, or what their mindset is, as there is no obvious path forward.

4.) Rebuilding - Teams in asset collection mode, still trying to move to ascending phase - POR, SAS, UTA, WAS, CHA, BK.

These teams are the least likely to trade for a guy like Durant.

5.) Whatever the hell Toronto is doing.

No one knows....

So if the ask is, who wants a 37 year old declining star in exchange for defense and draft picks.....who exactly is going to provide that?
1.) This group probably has defense and draft picks, but they are...also trying to win....and also trying to manage salary. Why would they trade those things for a short term boost? The reality, is they won't, unless the price is dirt cheap. All these teams are going to have eyes on the big prizes, the guys they can pencil in for 4-5 years. They might trade youth and some lower value picks...like this trade, but I doubt much else.
2.) This is the group that is interested in a guy like Durant. They probably aren't getting any better through development, they might be getting worse due to tax crunches, age, or injury. This is the group who might be desperate enough to throw something out there. But, they don't have many picks, and probably don't want to trade key defensive guys, so what's left? Mostly disappointments or bad fits....Mikal Bridges? Dame Lillard? Jamal Murray? Aaron Gordon? Norm Powell? Porzingas? Jrue?
3.) These teams might want Durant, but absolutely shouldn't, for the exact reason why Phoenix doesn't want him. Maybe they are convinced to rebuild and you can nab a good long term piece in a three way deal, with some team sending picks to the selling team. But why wouldn't the buyer take the Zion, or the AD, or Sabonis for themselves instead of Durant? They probably wouldn't.
4.) None of these teams should want him, but maybe some can facilitate a 3 way. Does Phx want Collins and Sexton, maybe Claxton and Johnson? But again, which team is sending the picks needed to Ainge and Marks to get those guys? Does group 2 have the picks needed to shake those guys loose? Might they just want those role players for themselves?

All of these are going to be clunky trades, for the simple reason that a team is trying to trade Durant....to get better....to a team...probably also trying to get better. I am trying to think of an example where this has happened...ever?

It’s the fact that you actually think Ishbia has a plan. Phoenix is only trading KD because GSW offered an absurd package for him at the deadline and he’s the only valuable piece to fix their mess for taking on Beal and trading Ayton for trash. They aren’t getting close to that offer now but this take is ridiculous.