PG: that sucked

[GONYK]

Thibs main strength is that he prepares his teams better than anyone. Multiple players have said this.

If it is true though, I have no idea why we have slow starts seemingly every game. You're right that it comes down to cohesion.

Last year's team did not need a template for how things are supposed to go. They really seemed to understand how "read and react" is supposed to go. Probably because iHart was a great decision maker out of the pinch post and a perfect release valve for when Brunson got walled off.

We don't have a secondary decision maker so Brunson is trying to make all the decisions himself which has implications all over the place.

We have time to practice now. Thibs has to put in some basic wrinkles here.

The 5 guarding Josh is really limiting KAT's ability to play the iHart role.

Maybe this sounds so simple but when they post up KAT why does it have to be 20 feet away from the basket? Why can't we post up KAT closer to the basket. So that forces Duren's help way quicker and then you have Hart back side either screening for a moving OG or Mikal to the basket.

Also have we ever thought to run Hart to screen for KAT to force the big back on KAT?

Its just so vanilla...we try to post up KAT 20 feet away he takes a few dribbles and gets a little closer but then Duren is lurking because he isn't guarding Hart...but instead of doing anything Hart just stands there...why isn't he back screening for an actual shooter like Draymond does?

it's the high post triple threat. shoot the midrange if uncontested (usually never left alone). drive if closed out on. keep an eye out for cutters if one gets free. maybe only jokic better at the action that's supposed to come from that.

it's also much easier to establish that position. even in today's NBA most teams won't just let KAT set up shop 5 feet away.

edit: it was a disaster for Detroit when KAT got that low post position in game 1.

I agree with you that the point is to get KAT in the pinch post. For us to take full advantage of it, we need Jalen to turn the corner and force KAT's man to hedge over to him, which should leave KAT completely open or able to run the rim with Jalen's man, which should be a PG, on him.

The complication is that Jalen is being guarded by a wing and so is KAT, so there is no advantage created off of that action. So we spend time getting the wing switched off of Jalen, but that doesn't solve that the wing is still on KAT.

He's still in the high post, but there is now only 10-13 secs left on the clock, so we just give it to him and let him drive.

We HAVE TO get Hart's man to switch on to KAT. It is imperative.

[mpharris36]

Thibs main strength is that he prepares his teams better than anyone. Multiple players have said this.

If it is true though, I have no idea why we have slow starts seemingly every game. You're right that it comes down to cohesion.

Last year's team did not need a template for how things are supposed to go. They really seemed to understand how "read and react" is supposed to go. Probably because iHart was a great decision maker out of the pinch post and a perfect release valve for when Brunson got walled off.

We don't have a secondary decision maker so Brunson is trying to make all the decisions himself which has implications all over the place.

We have time to practice now. Thibs has to put in some basic wrinkles here.

The 5 guarding Josh is really limiting KAT's ability to play the iHart role.

Maybe this sounds so simple but when they post up KAT why does it have to be 20 feet away from the basket? Why can't we post up KAT closer to the basket. So that forces Duren's help way quicker and then you have Hart back side either screening for a moving OG or Mikal to the basket.

Also have we ever thought to run Hart to screen for KAT to force the big back on KAT?

Its just so vanilla...we try to post up KAT 20 feet away he takes a few dribbles and gets a little closer but then Duren is lurking because he isn't guarding Hart...but instead of doing anything Hart just stands there...why isn't he back screening for an actual shooter like Draymond does?

it's the high post triple threat. shoot the midrange if uncontested (usually never left alone). drive if closed out on. keep an eye out for cutters if one gets free. maybe only jokic better at the action that's supposed to come from that.

it's also much easier to establish that position. even in today's NBA most teams won't just let KAT set up shop 5 feet away.

edit: it was a disaster for Detroit when KAT got that low post position in game 1.

How about using Hart as a screener for KAT. Start Brunson on the elbow with the ball and then have Hart in the post position looking like he is going to screen for Brunson only to then run across the paint and down screen for KAT coming across the paint into the low post area.

Brunson hits KAT.

One of two things happen. DET has to switch Duren onto KAT which is a matchup we want with KAT's quickness. Or Harris because he is being down screened by Hart can't fight KAT for low post position. So KAT starts way closer to the basket.

We barely run on ball screens...I think we run the fewest off ball screens in the NBA. Off ball screening is an easy way to get shooters looks. We never pre-screen to get a matchup we want. It just iso or post up KAT 20 feet away...it can be way easier.

[K_ick_God]

While you never know and it's never over till it's over, the team really seems like a lemon. Just nothing new or interesting happening. I think the front office did the right thing going for it - MB was supposed to be really good. He makes one of those shots, and things look different. But really the way we approached G1 was stupid too, and Payne bailed us out.

There is no sign at all that Tom has a firm hand over JB or that the team knows what it wants to do. Just keep coming back to these terrible possessions where we take shots that are like last resort.

I think Pistons would have to choke. A good betting opportunity I guess, for those who want to bet. Maybe it goes 7 but even then, I think Pistons win. And right now I'd bet less than 7. We just look like the worse team.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Idk why the fans can’t see this lol. Most of the top teams have multiple guys that can hunt 3pt shots, and multiple guys that attack off the bounce. We have a starting lineup that plays 4 on 5 and zero bench scoring. It makes NYK super easy to guard.

The team we're playing has 1 creator They're playing Ausar Thompson and Duren in their starting 5, two guys that cannot shoot. The easiest adjustment to that is take Hart out of the game, play two bigs and have Mitch guard Ausar. You hard trap Cade on any screen that Ausar sets, and any time he's not involved in the play Mitch roams on defense, which is what they're doing to us. That is the funniest thing about people defending Thibs at this point, it's that the Pistons have the same weaknesses but we don't exploit them.


Instead, our coach thinks having a 6'4" guy on the floor for 40+ mpg who can't shoot is a good idea, this is what happens when Hart sets a screen too.



They both get out on KAT, leaving Hart and because he's only 6'4" and the guy defending him is 6'11" he can just send his weak ass attempt. His man hit a corner three on the other end on that same play too, because he was whining about not getting the call instead of getting back on D.

Thibs has watched this same sh*t all season and finds nothing wrong with it.

In the last 15 years the Wiz have won 3 playoff series, one of them was against a Thibs team with a 3rd year Jimmy Butler and homecourt advantage. The man been getting exposed the same way in the playoffs for more than a decade, but it's the players fault now.

[K_ick_God]

I guess KAT is just not someone you can put in motion to get him shots. He shoots a set shot.

It's certainly not ALL Tom's fault. There is something about KAT that doesn't seem to translate. Kind of strange. Maybe he's missing Alpha genes or something. He should be able to dominate with his skill. That's what every GM thought and projected several years back.

Quite a mystery if you think about it. Why is this guy not on top of the world just on his offense alone. Dirk and those guys couldn't defend either. It's his lack of mobility I suppose.

In terms of Defense, an underrated reason is KAT’s foot size. He has large feet and it attributes to being slow footed on defense. Mitch is a 7ft but with tiny feet ( for a 7footer). He's quicker on his feet and can cover more ground defensively than KAT.

Yeah good point. Feet. But I don't think Mitch, for conditioning or other reasons, is covering enough ground. I used to love Mitch too, and still appreciate him. But he's a big salary and is really adding nothing much.

Tom has nothing to lose by trying Precious but he won't because he doesn't have a creative bone in his body lol.

[Chanel Bomber]

iHart and Mitch were at the heart of our winning the last two years.

We always had terrible perimeter defense (OG aside) and mediocre offensive efficiency. Our two centers always masked those weaknesses by providing elite rim protection/help defense and by dominating on the offensive glass. We never scored at a high level, we just had more scoring opportunities than the opposing team on average.

The Knicks lost iHart in free agency, which they could do nothing about, and Mitch to a prolonged recovery. They needed to add a center. And KAT has been our best player this season - better than Jalen or OG.

The problem is that his game doesn't cover for Brunson's bottom-of-the-league defense like iHart and Mitch did, and his skill set doesn't fit with RJalen's tendencies. For a gunner, it's arguably a better match to have an elite offensive rebounder as a center than an elite scorer who needs to be fed the ball.

So the perceived regression isn't just on KAT. It just exposes a lot of pre-existing issues that remained hidden thanks to players who were willing to do the dirty work night in and night out, something the Nova boys for instance haven't shown much dedication to this year. All three have been either disappointing or absolutely terrible on defense this year.

Mikal might as well show up in swim shorts with a beach towel around his neck. Hart constantly leaves his post because he's chasing triple doubles. Brunson is one of the worst defenders in the NBA (partly out of his control but his effort has also dropped a bit). You have to wonder if a sense of complacency has started to set in.

I go back and forth with this team. I don't really know how to feel about it, because I love the talent, I love the potential, but the chemistry seems off, as shamm pointed out early.

I think beyond any coaching issues this group of people just doesn't particularly enjoy working together. This tends to lead to inefficacy, and underdelivering in other work settings, so the malaise isn't overly surprising. Coaching plays a role, ok, and it's perfectly fair to suggest that Thibs isn't the coach for this team, but it's not just that.

[MrDollarBills]

If these numbers don’t concern you then I feel as a group RealGM should get a collective lobotomy.

Brunson’s USG% on the year is around 28% and last night it was 39.4% - that represents a 40% increase.

NBA teams AVG time of possession in 24-25 was 14.4 seconds - Brunson himself was at 10.6 seconds in Game 2 in case you are wondering why we are never a hockey assist away from a functional possession. There is no mismatch hunting, transition oops, double screens, stagger screens, pin downs or curl plays. We don’t push the pace off a missed FG or FTA - it’s stuck in the mud.

As far as touches are concerned, Brunson had 104 last night when he was closer to 84 on the season.

In fact, if you look at game 2 as far as who Jalen passed the ball to, Bridges received 38, Hart 32 and KAT only had 12 passes delivered from JB.

This offense is an utter indictment of Thibs and it’s truly the worst coaching I’ve seen him do across 6 years as a Knick HC. He has no clue how to adapt to his player personnel or the opposing HC, he will never be proactive to seek a way to win on the margins. It’s laughable.

The ball needs to move. Period.

It's extremely frustrating seeing OG get touches in game 1 and the next game he's relegated to watching Jalen pound the air out of the ball. No one can get into a rhythm playing like this. KAT being paid 54 million dollars to stand around and do nothing for the last 18 mins of a playoff game is asinine.

The offense is putrid. The way we play is not good team basketball. I don't know what else to say at this point.

[prophet_of_rage]

Knicks just lack offensive talent in general to me, and it’s a major issue. It’s so easy to guard us when there’s only 2-3 guys that are consistently threatening. Towns and Brunson can only do so much with the defense keyed in on them

Hart//Mikal//Shamet//McBride are all super easy to guard since they aren’t reliable shooters AND don’t get into the paint vs set defense.

a team with brunson kat og bridges does not lack offensive talent..

The problem is they can only play one way. And the quarterback lovws to run it himself.

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[GONYK]

Jalen will watch the film and make adjustments. He always figures it out in the end. But I don't think anything he's doing is happening in a vacuum. There are a lot of factors contributing to what we're seeing.

[knicksstuff]

Ive been a big Thibs supporter but Im starting to lean that hes achieved his ceiling as a coach with this team.... The fact we are not spamming pick and rolls with Kat and Brunson every time down the court makes no sense. And you cant come out after a playoff game and state rebounding was an issue and then refuse to paly the only 7 footer on the either team more than 20 minutes

This loss is on Thibs and Brunson. Brunson has to be better

[K_ick_God]

I honestly think Mitch is a good guy and works hard. And I grew to love him early on too. But we can't be like Thibs and not change our opinions. Mitch is slow out there, really doesn't get stops, he DOES keep the ball alive here and there and he can step out and do a decent job defending the perimeter. But his one way, and he's def very strictly one way, isn't all that good right now. He seems out of breath and he is uncoordinated.

I think our best defense has been in the fourth period with KAT on the floor. Precious should get some minutes just to try it, if nothing else. Tom has these stupid set rotations.

We are not winning this series if Mitch plays more. But, if you start him and bench Hart, at least that's a different look, so do that, do anything.

Bottom line is that the team played two terrible games at home. Lost on offense, and even though KAT has issues, his fourth quarter defense was good enough. He simply did not touch the ball on offense.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Maybe this sounds so simple but when they post up KAT why does it have to be 20 feet away from the basket? Why can't we post up KAT closer to the basket. So that forces Duren's help way quicker and then you have Hart back side either screening for a moving OG or Mikal to the basket.

Also have we ever thought to run Hart to screen for KAT to force the big back on KAT?

Its just so vanilla...we try to post up KAT 20 feet away he takes a few dribbles and gets a little closer but then Duren is lurking because he isn't guarding Hart...but instead of doing anything Hart just stands there...why isn't he back screening for an actual shooter like Draymond does?

it's the high post triple threat. shoot the midrange if uncontested (usually never left alone). drive if closed out on. keep an eye out for cutters if one gets free. maybe only jokic better at the action that's supposed to come from that.

it's also much easier to establish that position. even in today's NBA most teams won't just let KAT set up shop 5 feet away.

edit: it was a disaster for Detroit when KAT got that low post position in game 1.

Whenever KAT got the ball in the mid/low post he got triple teamed instantly.

piranha gang. i was like, "nope. won't be a repeat of game 1 there."

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Ive been a big Thibs supporter but Im starting to lean that hes achieved his ceiling as a coach with this team.... The fact we are not spamming pick and rolls with Kat and Brunson every time down the court makes no sense. And you cant come out after a playoff game and state rebounding was an issue and then refuse to paly the only 7 footer on the either team more than 20 minutes

This loss is on Thibs and Brunson. Brunson has to be better

Welcome aboard.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Thibs main strength is that he prepares his teams better than anyone. Multiple players have said this.

If it is true though, I have no idea why we have slow starts seemingly every game. You're right that it comes down to cohesion.

Last year's team did not need a template for how things are supposed to go. They really seemed to understand how "read and react" is supposed to go. Probably because iHart was a great decision maker out of the pinch post and a perfect release valve for when Brunson got walled off.

We don't have a secondary decision maker so Brunson is trying to make all the decisions himself which has implications all over the place.

We have time to practice now. Thibs has to put in some basic wrinkles here.

The 5 guarding Josh is really limiting KAT's ability to play the iHart role.

i have a fundamental issue with the assertion that the players don't move and that there are no plays. maybe they're not what we want, but to suggest the ball is just being rolled out there and it's whatever is kinda wild. (that's more for dot.)

i don't think thibs is scripting every movement, but i clearly see actions and patterns of movement at times. not 5 guys at the gym playing pickup.

i fully agree the offense can and should be more dynamic. some of the risks i am concerned about taking are indeed just part of the game now.

There really is no structure on offense, there was a video from a month ago that basically said that we still had a junk offense, an elite junk offense but a junk one nonetheless. At the time this video was made, the KAT/Brunson screen had only registered 10 made threes for KAT because of how little we actually used it.

Watch on YouTube

This is a regular season offense, it's "organic" and that's fine for the regular season but playoffs are about X's and O's which is why our offense usually craters in the playoffs and just reverts to "Get er done Jalen". It is essentially 5 guys playing pickup, it's also why we have such awful inbounds / out of timeout plays, because just out hustling guys means nothing there.

i saw that video and enjoyed seeing the conversation about the basketball strategy. that is what i appreciate most here.

very fair to categorize the offense that way. i wouldn't complain about having more layers. the same way i want more nuance in conversation, i'd be remiss to not be open to nuance in the offense.

we may be having a bit of a semantic conversation here. because i don't think they're starting from nothing. but if it's not enough, it's not enough. omar listening.

[prophet_of_rage]

Knicks just lack offensive talent in general to me, and it’s a major issue. It’s so easy to guard us when there’s only 2-3 guys that are consistently threatening. Towns and Brunson can only do so much with the defense keyed in on them

Hart//Mikal//Shamet//McBride are all super easy to guard since they aren’t reliable shooters AND don’t get into the paint vs set defense.

it's fair to say that JB is the only guy that can actually create advantages off the dribble.

we swapped IQ, RJ, I-Hart, Randle and Divo for OG, Kat and Bridges. None of them can ISO or create advantages with the ball. We really leaned further into JB hero ball and didn't even realize it.

with that said a better offensive scheme could mitigate it to an extent.

Not true.

OG is a beast, and Mikal is one of the best short game artists in the game. It's on Brunson and Thibs to be creative enough to use all his weapons.

Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady, do a great job of serving everyone and pick their spots. Brunson has to be a better quarterback, and he can be, but Thibs has to remind him. IF he wants to.

And if Thibs reminds him and he says f it then what?

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[Jeff Van Gully]

Ive been a big Thibs supporter but Im starting to lean that hes achieved his ceiling as a coach with this team.... The fact we are not spamming pick and rolls with Kat and Brunson every time down the court makes no sense. And you cant come out after a playoff game and state rebounding was an issue and then refuse to paly the only 7 footer on the either team more than 20 minutes

This loss is on Thibs and Brunson. Brunson has to be better

Welcome aboard.

congratulations, and excellent gif.

so, are you saying you don't really want the thibslamists among your ranks?

[K_ick_God]

I'm also not seeing this "OG is a beast" ... to spread the criticism around. But he and MB don't seem up to it and as sham said, and I agree with, we lack quick decision guys. OG and MB are slow deciders.

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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[Jeff Van Gully]

Maybe this sounds so simple but when they post up KAT why does it have to be 20 feet away from the basket? Why can't we post up KAT closer to the basket. So that forces Duren's help way quicker and then you have Hart back side either screening for a moving OG or Mikal to the basket.

Also have we ever thought to run Hart to screen for KAT to force the big back on KAT?

Its just so vanilla...we try to post up KAT 20 feet away he takes a few dribbles and gets a little closer but then Duren is lurking because he isn't guarding Hart...but instead of doing anything Hart just stands there...why isn't he back screening for an actual shooter like Draymond does?

it's the high post triple threat. shoot the midrange if uncontested (usually never left alone). drive if closed out on. keep an eye out for cutters if one gets free. maybe only jokic better at the action that's supposed to come from that.

it's also much easier to establish that position. even in today's NBA most teams won't just let KAT set up shop 5 feet away.

edit: it was a disaster for Detroit when KAT got that low post position in game 1.

I agree with you that the point is to get KAT in the pinch post. For us to take full advantage of it, we need Jalen to turn the corner and force KAT's man to hedge over to him, which should leave KAT completely open or able to run the rim with Jalen's man, which should be a PG, on him.

The complication is that Jalen is being guarded by a wing and so is KAT, so there is no advantage created off of that action. So we spend time getting the wing switched off of Jalen, but that doesn't solve that the wing is still on KAT.

He's still in the high post, but there is now only 10-13 secs left on the clock, so we just give it to him and let him drive.

We HAVE TO get Hart's man to switch on to KAT. It is imperative.

KAT and JB being unable to execute a reliable pick and roll or pick and pop is very concerning. for all the talent they both have, neither are good at basketball's simplest action since the 60s.

in game 1 we saw KAT activated and technically sound on defense. if the man could set a screen...

[mpharris36]

Jalen will watch the film and make adjustments. He always figures it out in the end. But I don't think anything he's doing is happening in a vacuum. There are a lot of factors contributing to what we're seeing.

We can certainly find ways to lighten his load or make his reads easier.

I think we take for granted how great brunson is and how much he has to do. The regime brought in these pieces so that he wouldnt have to play like this like he did for the first two playoff runs here...

But alas he is playing more minutes and taking more shots then the last two post season with significantly more talent around him.

Make it make sense to me.