Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[MEDIC]

What?

There's like 0% change he's anything like Garnett. They aren't even remotely close from a stylistic standpoint.

I didn't suggest that they are stylistically the same. Similar point production, assists & defense. It would be nice if Scottie could rebound as well as KG, but I am not expecting that.

Basically........similar role on rhe team. Defensive leader, facilitator & 2nd or 3rd scorer.

You mean a guy who leads the team from the back end and scores situationally (not a guy who will try to go for 30, but 20-22) and then when you need a bucket in clutch, he’ll get it for you. I see the same. Don’t worry about the hyperbole in the responses lol. He will need his Pierce, but that’s ultimately what I expect to be his best role.

Other than this season he has shown he can score in the clutch. Needs to improve his touch a ton and being back his hook shot from his rookie season.

You get it. If Scottie can maximize his defensive talent, plus improve his mid range & post up %'s, he can potentially play a KG type role on a contending team. He'll need a Pierce/ Allen/ Rondo trio to compliment his game (if he reaches his full potential).

As far as numbers go. If you look at Scottie & KG's per 36 numbers & percentages at 22yo, they aren't that far off. It's tough to compare raw #'s because star players like KG were playing close to 40 min/ per back then. Scotties best season so far was 34.9 min.

22 y/o KG per 36:

.463 two %, .286 three %, .704 FT, 9.9 Reb. 4.1 Asst, 1.7 blk, 19.8 ppg

22 y/o SB per 36:

.536 two %, .341 three %, .781 FT, 8.5 Reb, 6.2 Asst, 1.5 blk, 20.5 ppg

[tsherkin]

You get it. If Scottie can maximize his defensive talent, plus improve his mid range & post up %'s, he can potentially play a KG type role on a contending team. He'll need a Pierce/ Allen/ Rondo trio to compliment his game (if he reaches his full potential).

Still a big ask from Scottie's scoring. And that still isn't really a "KG type role," to be honest.

But let's get past the KG comparison, because that is tripping everything up. Scottie can be useful to us if we have him shoot less and he can improve his efficiency by working more with higher-efficiency off-ball stuff in transition and from cuts, being the roll man, etc. And then we can survive him not being highly efficient to let him play a little with his passing. But we'll need less of his passing when Ingram's on the floor, too, so we can also survive Scottie really sinking into his defensive role.

[Indeed]

You get it. If Scottie can maximize his defensive talent, plus improve his mid range & post up %'s, he can potentially play a KG type role on a contending team. He'll need a Pierce/ Allen/ Rondo trio to compliment his game (if he reaches his full potential).

Still a big ask from Scottie's scoring. And that still isn't really a "KG type role," to be honest.

But let's get past the KG comparison, because that is tripping everything up. Scottie can be useful to us if we have him shoot less and he can improve his efficiency by working more with higher-efficiency off-ball stuff in transition and from cuts, being the roll man, etc. And then we can survive him not being highly efficient to let him play a little with his passing. But we'll need less of his passing when Ingram's on the floor, too, so we can also survive Scottie really sinking into his defensive role.

Roll man isnt it due to his finishing.
Taj Gibson if he has not improve his 3 point shooting. Maybe his ability to read the game and being a connector would be more than Gibson, but afterall his swing skill is 3 point shooting

[tsherkin]

Roll man isnt it due to his finishing.
Taj Gibson if he has not improve his 3 point shooting. Maybe his ability to read the game and being a connector would be more than Gibson, but afterall his swing skill is 3 point shooting

Yeah, I mean I'm searching for ways to make him suck less on offense, you know what I mean? Scottie needs to learn how to finish well from some sets well enough to smash them in some volume so he can at least be a moderately efficient like 15 ppg scorer, which isn't something he's shown himself capable of doing yet, which is very worrisome based on how we like to use him.

[XTC]

I didn't suggest that they are stylistically the same. Similar point production, assists & defense. It would be nice if Scottie could rebound as well as KG, but I am not expecting that.

Basically........similar role on rhe team. Defensive leader, facilitator & 2nd or 3rd scorer.

You mean a guy who leads the team from the back end and scores situationally (not a guy who will try to go for 30, but 20-22) and then when you need a bucket in clutch, he’ll get it for you. I see the same. Don’t worry about the hyperbole in the responses lol. He will need his Pierce, but that’s ultimately what I expect to be his best role.

Other than this season he has shown he can score in the clutch. Needs to improve his touch a ton and being back his hook shot from his rookie season.

You get it. If Scottie can maximize his defensive talent, plus improve his mid range & post up %'s, he can potentially play a KG type role on a contending team. He'll need a Pierce/ Allen/ Rondo trio to compliment his game (if he reaches his full potential).

As far as numbers go. If you look at Scottie & KG's per 36 numbers & percentages at 22yo, they aren't that far off. It's tough to compare raw #'s because star players like KG were playing close to 40 min/ per back then. Scotties best season so far was 34.9 min.

22 y/o KG per 36:

.463 two %, .286 three %, .704 FT, 9.9 Reb. 4.1 Asst, 1.7 blk, 19.8 ppg

22 y/o SB per 36:

.536 two %, .341 three %, .781 FT, 8.5 Reb, 6.2 Asst, 1.5 blk, 20.5 ppg

When KG was 22 the league average pace was 88.9, and the league had a grand total of 15 guys who averaged 20 PPG or more. Garnett averaged 20.8 PPG (#11 in league scoring)... he made All NBA 3rd team, and was #10 in MVP voting. KG was already an allstar caliber player, and a legit franchise player by the time he was 22.

Scottie at 22 played in a league where the average pace was 98.5, and the league had a grand total of 50 guys who averaged 20 PPG or more, Scottie averaged 19.9 PPG (#51 in league scoring). The #11 leading scorer when Barnes was 22 averaged 26.4 PPG... The LEAGUE leading scorer when Garnett was 22 averaged 26.8 PPG... Do you see why you comparing their raw stats is flawed?

Garnett was so much better than Barnes as a scorer (and player) at the same age, it isn't even funny. He was passive, but he had a goto shot that he could get off when his team needed a bucket. Barnes is more comparable to guy like Andre Iguodala if anything.

IMO these same age comparisions are super lazy, and honestly dumb.

Jalen Green at 21 PER36

22.3/5.9/4.0
49.8% from 2
33.2% from 3

Kobe at 21 PER36
21.2/5.9/4.6
48.8% from 2
31.9% from 3

Are we supposed to take away from this that Jalen Green is going to be an ATG scorer on a contending team, and that he just needs his Pau and Phil Jackson?

[XTC]

Roll man isnt it due to his finishing.
Taj Gibson if he has not improve his 3 point shooting. Maybe his ability to read the game and being a connector would be more than Gibson, but afterall his swing skill is 3 point shooting

Yeah, I mean I'm searching for ways to make him suck less on offense, you know what I mean? Scottie needs to learn how to finish well from some sets well enough to smash them in some volume so he can at least be a moderately efficient like 15 ppg scorer, which isn't something he's shown himself capable of doing yet, which is very worrisome based on how we like to use him.

His value at the moment is being a connective passer, and an offball scoring threat. Here's Scottie's 2FG% breakdown correlated to dribbles.

0 dribbles - 63.6%
1 dribbles - 60.4%
2 dribbles - 45.2%
3-6 dribbles - 45.4%
7+ dribbles - 42.4%

Here's his 2FG% breakdown correlated to seconds with the ball

0-2 seconds - 64.0%
2-6 seconds - 49.4%
6+ seconds - 40.9%

I think people are having a hard time coming to the fact that Barnes isn't a creator or scorer. The offense was run through Barnes this season and the team had a ORTG of 110.2 when he's on the floor vs 111.1 when he's off the floor (a -0.9 difference). That is honestly abysmal. If this team wants to win next season the ball cannot be in Barnes hand... it sucks to say, but he's a role player at the moment.

Drives - 46.3%
C&S 3's - 27.6%
Pull up jumpers - 39.1%
Pull up 3's - 25.5%
Elbow scoring- 56.8%
Post ups - 47.0%
Paint scoring- 66.4%
Isolation - 41.7%
Transition - 54.6%
P&R rolling - 57.5%

If the question is to see how we can utilize him effectively, he is most efficient from the elbow area and within. His jump shooting is honestly NON existent everywhere on the floor. I would use him as offball threat (that 3 point shooting needs to improve) and give him touches around the elbow, and incorporate more dribble hand offs/screens with Scottie. I actually think Scottie would do pretty well with RJ's shot diet.

[CPT]

While we’re throwing out bad Scottie comps, how about Lamar Odom with defense?

Iguodala is probably a good one, even if it’s pretty disappointing.

[MEDIC]

Jalen Green at 21 PER36

22.3/5.9/4.0
49.8% from 2
33.2% from 3

Kobe at 21 PER36
21.2/5.9/4.6
48.8% from 2
31.9% from 3

Are we supposed to take away from this that Jalen Green is going to be an ATG scorer on a contending team, and that he just needs his Pau and Phil Jackson?

Well......no. Why? Because defense matters. Kobe was on the all defensive team 12 times. For me this is about being a core piece on a championship level team.......it's not necessarily about scoring.

The reason I believe Scottie had the talent to be great (not saying he will get there), is because I also believe Scottie has the defensive talent to be a multiple time all defense type player & potentially be in the discussion for DPOY at some point.

If he can find his game offensively & become more efficient, I think he can be a hell of a talent. Potentially HOF level talent.

Do I think he will get there? Who knows. He has a lot of maturing & developing to do over the next 5 years. What I I do believe is that in his prime (27-30ish), he will be an allstar & be on an all defensive team.

For me, this season is a throw away season for Scottie. It was a messed up, tanking season. By the end of next season, I think we will have a clearer picture of where his career is headed. I want to see some playoff performances under his belt.

[MEDIC]

Pippen dragging that team to 55 wins was pretty impressive.

I think Pippens best position was SF, whereas I believe Barnes best position will be PF.

I think so too but I'm also curious to see what Barnes' utility as a small-ball 5 ultimately ends up being, I think that has potential and the only reason people went away from it in earlier seasons was because they had expectations that he'd eventually turn into a proper SF or even PG (lol).

I've been thinking this way more and more too.

Scotty as a small-ball center might be the way to go. Especially if we get a PF in the draft.

He already excels in the team defense category that you often need from a center. And he certainly isn't a guy who you can neutralize by dragging him out of the paint (like a gobert type).

If you have size at all the other positions....(ie RJ and Ingram and a PF as the 2, 3, 4) that would also assist in getting away with Barnes as a center.

I do think having Ingram, who is another long/ lanky 3/4 (who is capable of getting buckets) will allow Scottie to become more versatile on both ends of the floor. He won't be pigeon holed into this on ball creator role (which he doesn't seem to be suited for). I do think BI is much better suited for that role as he will have more gravity & seems to be a better passer than Scottie.

[tsherkin]

His value at the moment is being a connective passer, and an offball scoring threat. Here's Scottie's 2FG% breakdown correlated to dribbles.

Right. And that value diminishes once BI is here, because there's overlap in what the two can do in that regard, and BI is a far better scorer. Which means we don't need to kill ourselves trying to figure out a way to leverage Scottie doing that nearly as much. There is some Sunk Cost fallacy going into how we approach his O, I think.

I think people are having a hard time coming to the fact that Barnes isn't a creator or scorer. The offense was run through Barnes this season and the team had a ORTG of 110.2 when he's on the floor vs 111.1 when he's off the floor (a -0.9 difference). That is honestly abysmal. If this team wants to win next season the ball cannot be in Barnes hand... it sucks to say, but he's a role player at the moment.

Agreed. But again, all of this matches stuff we've known since prior to the draft. He's living up quite well to the areas of his game all the scouts said were good, and struggling in the areas which they said were not. IT was pretty spot-on. And that makes him useful to us. Dunno if that extension is super awesome right now, but it is what it is now.

[MEDIC]

Watch on YouTube

How is this for a stylistic comparison?

[XTC]

Watch on YouTube

How is this for a stylistic comparison?

If Scottie started hitting shimmy fade away jumpers from the mid post on a consistent basis... I'd cream my pants.

[MEDIC]

Watch on YouTube

How is this for a stylistic comparison?

If Scottie started hitting shimmy fade away jumpers from the mid post on a consistent basis... I'd cream my pants.

Well, that's the thing. He can and does hit those shots, but not at the level KG did..Scottie can also hit mid range jumpers. I think the organization (& Scottie) need to focus on refining those skills.

[Dexjackson]

Watch on YouTube

How is this for a stylistic comparison?

If Scottie started hitting shimmy fade away jumpers from the mid post on a consistent basis... I'd cream my pants.

Well, that's the thing. He can and does hit those shots, but not at the level KG did..Scottie can also hit mid range jumpers. I think the organization (& Scottie) need to focus on refining those skills.

I think we're underrating KG while overrating Scottie by comparing them as scorers. KG was an athletic freak and had a smooth jumper with a high release point.

[MEDIC]

If Scottie started hitting shimmy fade away jumpers from the mid post on a consistent basis... I'd cream my pants.

Well, that's the thing. He can and does hit those shots, but not at the level KG did..Scottie can also hit mid range jumpers. I think the organization (& Scottie) need to focus on refining those skills.

I think we're underrating KG while overrating Scottie by comparing them as scorers. KG was an athletic freak and had a smooth jumper with a high release point.

Scottie needs to find his place in the offense. With his offensive skillset, who do you suggest he model his game after? Doesn't look like he is going to be a 3 point shooter. Right now he is a post up & mid range guy who can facilitate & play fantastic weak side/ help defense.

In no way am I suggesting Scottie is as good as KG BTW.

KG came into the league as a raw teenager & developed his offensive game over time.

If Scottie was 2-3 inches taller, it would sure help but he is pretty effective in the post as a 6'8" PF.

[ConSarnit]

Roll man isnt it due to his finishing.
Taj Gibson if he has not improve his 3 point shooting. Maybe his ability to read the game and being a connector would be more than Gibson, but afterall his swing skill is 3 point shooting

Yeah, I mean I'm searching for ways to make him suck less on offense, you know what I mean? Scottie needs to learn how to finish well from some sets well enough to smash them in some volume so he can at least be a moderately efficient like 15 ppg scorer, which isn't something he's shown himself capable of doing yet, which is very worrisome based on how we like to use him.

His value at the moment is being a connective passer, and an offball scoring threat. Here's Scottie's 2FG% breakdown correlated to dribbles.

0 dribbles - 63.6%
1 dribbles - 60.4%
2 dribbles - 45.2%
3-6 dribbles - 45.4%
7+ dribbles - 42.4%

Here's his 2FG% breakdown correlated to seconds with the ball

0-2 seconds - 64.0%
2-6 seconds - 49.4%
6+ seconds - 40.9%

I think people are having a hard time coming to the fact that Barnes isn't a creator or scorer. The offense was run through Barnes this season and the team had a ORTG of 110.2 when he's on the floor vs 111.1 when he's off the floor (a -0.9 difference). That is honestly abysmal. If this team wants to win next season the ball cannot be in Barnes hand... it sucks to say, but he's a role player at the moment.

Drives - 46.3%
C&S 3's - 27.6%
Pull up jumpers - 39.1%
Pull up 3's - 25.5%
Elbow scoring- 56.8%
Post ups - 47.0%
Paint scoring- 66.4%
Isolation - 41.7%
Transition - 54.6%
P&R rolling - 57.5%

If the question is to see how we can utilize him effectively, he is most efficient from the elbow area and within. His jump shooting is honestly NON existent everywhere on the floor. I would use him as offball threat (that 3 point shooting needs to improve) and give him touches around the elbow, and incorporate more dribble hand offs/screens with Scottie. I actually think Scottie would do pretty well with RJ's shot diet.

The problem is he’s not an off-ball threat at all. He’s been very low volume as a roll man, hardly ever screens and we all know his shooting is bad. If you take current Barnes and put him off-ball he has very little value on a good team. Barnes would have to radically change the way he plays to be an off-ball threat. He’s currently played 4 seasons like a guard/wing and he’d effectively have to play like center to have value as an off-ball guy. Maybe it happens but I think it’s a long shot, at least for next season.

If we want to play Barnes as an elbow guy what happens to Poeltl? That elbow game doesn’t work if the other team’s C is parked in the paint. Go look at all of the effective elbow operators in the league. They are all centers except for Giannis, Zion and LeBron, guys who are massive threats to drive to the rim (which Barnes is not). Barnes has to play C for that to work at any volume (or we need a spacing C).

[MEDIC]

Alright. People hate the KG comparison because of height & the fact that KG is a GOAT at PF.

How about Carlos Boozer with shot blocking & elite defense?

[ConSarnit]

Well, that's the thing. He can and does hit those shots, but not at the level KG did..Scottie can also hit mid range jumpers. I think the organization (& Scottie) need to focus on refining those skills.

I think we're underrating KG while overrating Scottie by comparing them as scorers. KG was an athletic freak and had a smooth jumper with a high release point.

Scottie needs to find his place in the offense. With his offensive skillset, who do you suggest he model his game after? Doesn't look like he is going to be a 3 point shooter. Right now he is a post up & mid range guy who can facilitate & play fantastic weak side/ help defense.

In no way am I suggesting Scottie is as good as KG BTW.

KG came into the league as a raw teenager & developed his offensive game over time.

If Scottie was 2-3 inches taller, it would sure help but he is pretty effective in the post as a 6'8" PF.

Barnes is not a post up threat. His was in the 33rd percentile this season. Last season was his best season at 42nd percentile. He has the strength where it should be part of his game but it still has a ways to go.

If Barnes isn’t going to shoot he has to effectively play as a center. Roll-man (where he can use his passing), bully ball post ups, screening. It could work but it’s not going to work all that well playing with another non-spacing big (Poeltl). As this team gets better (as it should next year) we might have to face some real questions about Barnes fit in a good offense. This could be solved with a spacing C but those aren’t easy to come by. Not a lot of teams are operating at a high level on offense with a non-spacing PF and C.

[tsherkin]

Scottie needs to find his place in the offense. With his offensive skillset, who do you suggest he model his game after? Doesn't look like he is going to be a 3 point shooter. Right now he is a post up & mid range guy who can facilitate & play fantastic weak side/ help defense.

Unfortunately, that post up play isn't particularly efficient, and isn't really worthwhile in a focal sense.

KG came into the league as a raw teenager & developed his offensive game over time.

Yes and no. The shooting ability was always there. Took him a bit to get himself together at the line, but the jumper was always there, as was the athleticism. He was a pretty effective face-up guy for a long time, especially when he was younger and skinnier.

If Scottie was 2-3 inches taller, it would sure help but he is pretty effective in the post as a 6'8" PF.

Meh. Unremarkable at getting to and finishing inside the RA. Below league average from 3-10 feet these past couple years. Wouldn't call him "pretty effective in the post," to be honest.

[XTC]

Yeah, I mean I'm searching for ways to make him suck less on offense, you know what I mean? Scottie needs to learn how to finish well from some sets well enough to smash them in some volume so he can at least be a moderately efficient like 15 ppg scorer, which isn't something he's shown himself capable of doing yet, which is very worrisome based on how we like to use him.

His value at the moment is being a connective passer, and an offball scoring threat. Here's Scottie's 2FG% breakdown correlated to dribbles.

0 dribbles - 63.6%
1 dribbles - 60.4%
2 dribbles - 45.2%
3-6 dribbles - 45.4%
7+ dribbles - 42.4%

Here's his 2FG% breakdown correlated to seconds with the ball

0-2 seconds - 64.0%
2-6 seconds - 49.4%
6+ seconds - 40.9%

I think people are having a hard time coming to the fact that Barnes isn't a creator or scorer. The offense was run through Barnes this season and the team had a ORTG of 110.2 when he's on the floor vs 111.1 when he's off the floor (a -0.9 difference). That is honestly abysmal. If this team wants to win next season the ball cannot be in Barnes hand... it sucks to say, but he's a role player at the moment.

Drives - 46.3%
C&S 3's - 27.6%
Pull up jumpers - 39.1%
Pull up 3's - 25.5%
Elbow scoring- 56.8%
Post ups - 47.0%
Paint scoring- 66.4%
Isolation - 41.7%
Transition - 54.6%
P&R rolling - 57.5%

If the question is to see how we can utilize him effectively, he is most efficient from the elbow area and within. His jump shooting is honestly NON existent everywhere on the floor. I would use him as offball threat (that 3 point shooting needs to improve) and give him touches around the elbow, and incorporate more dribble hand offs/screens with Scottie. I actually think Scottie would do pretty well with RJ's shot diet.

The problem is he’s not an off-ball threat at all. He’s been very low volume as a roll man, hardly ever screens and we all know his shooting is bad. If you take current Barnes and put him off-ball he has very little value on a good team. Barnes would have to radically change the way he plays to be an off-ball threat. He’s currently played 4 seasons like a guard/wing and he’d effectively have to play like center to have value as an off-ball guy. Maybe it happens but I think it’s a long shot, at least for next season.

If we want to play Barnes as an elbow guy what happens to Poeltl? That elbow game doesn’t work if the other team’s C is parked in the paint. Go look at all of the effective elbow operators in the league. They are all centers except for Giannis, Zion and LeBron, guys who are massive threats to drive to the rim (which Barnes is not). Barnes has to play C for that to work at any volume (or we need a spacing C).

I agree.

I'm in the camp that Scottie wouldn't be a focal point on offense on any contender. He had the offense run through him and averaged 19.3/7.7/5.8 on 44/27/75 shooting splits, and a TS of 52.3% (-5.3% lower than league average). People are throwing KG comparisons, but I'm seeing Josh Smith more than anything.