2025 NBA PLAYOFFS West First Round: #4 Denver Nuggets vs #5 LA Clippers (Series tied 1-1)

[Tomhomes33]

This might as well be a highlight video of all the flops and embellishments Jokic pulled in game 2.

Watch on YouTube

I hope refs watch these as well.
Should give him Technical early in the game and he wouldn’t flop the rest of that game.
And Lue should definitely challenge one of Jokic’s flops

[og15]

This might as well be a highlight video of all the flops and embellishments Jokic pulled in game 2.

Watch on YouTube

I was actually surprised, as while of course there's some embellishment here and there from many players, and Jokic is not immune and has his moments and does do it, I don't think I've seen this much from Jokic before.

I have mentioned to people before that, Jokic, though he does take a lot of beating, many don't acknowledge that he's one of the most physical players in the league and is constantly giving beatings to others.

He's had a whole 2 weeks worth of antics in these past two games though. Desperate times it seems like. It's funny that there are still people out there who will peddle the, "would rather be with his horses", or "doesn't even care about basketball". Again as I've said before, people likely just don't have experience with many highly successful people in their fields who can also have greater passions outside of work, but are not dispassionate about work.

No one who doesn't care would have the emotional reactions he has, watch as much basketball and film as he does, and as much as it might be annoying, you don't flop and embellish (which is a means of trying to get every advantage you can), if you don't care.

B-ball breakdown guy went pretty hard on him (I think?), even went at the footwork and travels, but regardless, yes, Jokic should clean it up a bit with the antics (I'm not expecting zero from anyone, it's the playoffs) as he's been the biggest culprit by far this series. So far though, there isn't really any incentive to do so if it is rewarded and/or there are no reprecautions.

[p0peye]

Denver is far from contender in these playoffs and Joker knows it. Desperate times, indeed.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Yeah he's averaging +5.5 game level EPM and +12.9 BPM through 2 games. All the other Nuggets starters are averaging negative EPM.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Yeah he's averaging +5.5 game level EPM and +12.9 BPM through 2 games. All the other Nuggets starters are averaging negative EPM.

Nobody held to his standard? LeBron was criticized heavily if he passed the ball instead of shooting down the stretch of games. Jokic has done this in both games so far. MJ played before the internet existed. There wasn't a platform to criticize him (he also never really lost in his prime).

Unfortunately those EPM BPM rankings don't win games. I imagine you've both watched these games. Has Jokic been aggressive enough? Do his teammates really have a chance to be playmakers at all in that system they run? Was Jokics defense not embarrassing in the first half of game 1? Were his 7 turnovers (forcing passes) not an issue in game 2? This guy is peddaled by many on here as having the GOAT peak. Yeah expectations are high then, and he's underperformed them so far. The criticism is justified.

Those numbers are nice. He hasn't dominated either game by any means though. At no point has it been like how are they going to slow Jokic. Thats great, but not special at all.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Yeah he's averaging +5.5 game level EPM and +12.9 BPM through 2 games. All the other Nuggets starters are averaging negative EPM.

Nobody held to his standard? LeBron was criticized heavily if he passed the ball instead of shooting down the stretch of games. Jokic has done this in both games so far. MJ played before the internet existed. There wasn't a platform to criticize him (he also never really lost in his prime).

Unfortunately those EPM BPM rankings don't win games. I imagine you've both watched these games. Has Jokic been aggressive enough? Do his teammates really have a chance to be playmakers at all in that system they run? Was Jokics defense not embarrassing in the first half of game 1? Were his 7 turnovers (forcing passes) not an issue in game 2? This guy is peddaled by many on here as having the GOAT peak. Yeah expectations are high then, and he's underperformed them so far. The criticism is justified.

Those numbers are nice. He hasn't dominated either game by any means though. At no point has it been like how are they going to slow Jokic. Thats great, but not special at all.

You can nitpick any game from any player if you really try hard enough. EPM and BPM aren't gospel, but they a nice sanity check and definitely point in the direction of Jokic having a great series and the other Nuggets starters being mid

[og15]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Yeah he's averaging +5.5 game level EPM and +12.9 BPM through 2 games. All the other Nuggets starters are averaging negative EPM.

Nobody held to his standard? LeBron was criticized heavily if he passed the ball instead of shooting down the stretch of games. Jokic has done this in both games so far. MJ played before the internet existed. There wasn't a platform to criticize him (he also never really lost in his prime).

Unfortunately those EPM BPM rankings don't win games. I imagine you've both watched these games. Has Jokic been aggressive enough? Do his teammates really have a chance to be playmakers at all in that system they run? Was Jokics defense not embarrassing in the first half of game 1? Were his 7 turnovers (forcing passes) not an issue in game 2? This guy is peddaled by many on here as having the GOAT peak. Yeah expectations are high then, and he's underperformed them so far. The criticism is justified.

Those numbers are nice. He hasn't dominated either game by any means though. At no point has it been like how are they going to slow Jokic. Thats great, but not special at all.

They are 1-1, Jokic has been fine, he hasn't been perfect, it's actually not that serious.

Also MJ did lose in his prime and did get criticized, but like most criticisms, you get a good enough team and win enough and it goes away.

The previous posts criticism based on b-ball breakdown were not about production, but about flopping and antics.

[SpurNani]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Jokic doesn’t receive one iota the hate and criticism his American counterparts do because Jokic is foreign and well liked and in America we like to hate on our own. Go look at the stuff they were saying about a young Lebron when he lost to Boston and Orlando but posted monster statlines. ESPN certainly isn’t leading their talk shows talking about Jokic not having the clutch gene.


Jokic is always going to have his numbers but if you watch the games, some of the criticism is warranted. Game 1 he played a good game but didn’t finish well, missed multiple late free throws and didn’t do anything in OT.

Game 2, Jokic turned the ball over 7 times, missed more free throws and wasnt aggressive enough looking for his own shot. 15 FG attempts in 43 minutes is not good enough for the best player in the world in a tightly contested playoff game.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Watch on YouTube

I knew Jokić got away with a ton, but I did not realize it was this bad wow. He got exposed badly in this video and so did the people that constantly cry that he does not get any calls.

[ejftw]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Nah, I criticize him for flopping like Neymar, and that elbow which, thankfully didn't connect to the back of Zu'ss head

[MarcusBrody]

This might as well be a highlight video of all the flops and embellishments Jokic pulled in game 2.

Watch on YouTube

I was actually surprised, as while of course there's some embellishment here and there from many players, and Jokic is not immune and has his moments and does do it, I don't think I've seen this much from Jokic before.

I have mentioned to people before that, Jokic, though he does take a lot of beating, many don't acknowledge that he's one of the most physical players in the league and is constantly giving beatings to others.

He's had a whole 2 weeks worth of antics in these past two games though. Desperate times it seems like. It's funny that there are still people out there who will peddle the, "would rather be with his horses", or "doesn't even care about basketball". Again as I've said before, people likely just don't have experience with many highly successful people in their fields who can also have greater passions outside of work, but are not dispassionate about work.

No one who doesn't care would have the emotional reactions he has, watch as much basketball and film as he does, and as much as it might be annoying, you don't flop and embellish (which is a means of trying to get every advantage you can), if you don't care.

B-ball breakdown guy went pretty hard on him (I think?), even went at the footwork and travels, but regardless, yes, Jokic should clean it up a bit with the antics (I'm not expecting zero from anyone, it's the playoffs) as he's been the biggest culprit by far this series. So far though, there isn't really any incentive to do so if it is rewarded and/or there are no reprecautions.

I haven't seen him flop this much previous either. I have a theory that either he's been saving it up, or Adelman told him to do it after he became head coach.

The go to strategy for teams this year has been to have smaller players be exceptionally physical with Jokic any time he tries to move off ball (and sometimes on ball). It's been talked about here in relation to Jokic and others, but refs seem to de facto tolerate a whole lot of contact from smaller players on bigger players than they ever would on guards. Teams have noticed that and it seems to be an overt strategy. Have the smaller player hack and grab Jokic constantly basically daring the ref to call fouls all the time before passing him off to the big who is more constrained in what he can do.

My guess is that either Jokic or Adelman saw this and decided the best way to address this was to have Jokic start flopping early on the contact from the smaller players to make the other team think twice about whether than can get away with that strategy without racking up fouls like they would against a guard.

The tough part for the Clips is a lot of the perimeter flops had substantial contact and refs almost never reverse those on review. Was it enough contact for someone as big as Jokic to leap in the air? No, almost certainly not. But from the challenges I've seen this year, refs almost never reverse the call if there is contact, even if the response was somewhat exaggerated. The hooks they could challenge, but the refs did a better job officiating them.

[ryguy613]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Jokic doesn’t receive one iota the hate and criticism his American counterparts do because Jokic is foreign and well liked and in America we like to hate on our own. Go look at the stuff they were saying about a young Lebron when he lost to Boston and Orlando but posted monster statlines. ESPN certainly isn’t leading their talk shows talking about Jokic not having the clutch gene.


Jokic is always going to have his numbers but if you watch the games, some of the criticism is warranted. Game 1 he played a good game but didn’t finish well, missed multiple late free throws and didn’t do anything in OT.

Game 2, Jokic turned the ball over 7 times, missed more free throws and wasnt aggressive enough looking for his own shot. 15 FG attempts in 43 minutes is not good enough for the best player in the world in a tightly contested playoff game.

if your theory was correct, Luka would also get less hate than "his American counterparts". Would you argue that?

[ryguy613]

This might as well be a highlight video of all the flops and embellishments Jokic pulled in game 2.

Watch on YouTube

I hope refs watch these as well.
Should give him Technical early in the game and he wouldn’t flop the rest of that game.
And Lue should definitely challenge one of Jokic’s flops

Just curious, is there any way we can stop clutching out pearls about Jokic flopping in a series that features James Harden? Any chance of that at all? Any?

[sp6r=underrated]

Jokic is the only player in NBA history who can be putting up 27.5/10/11 on 50% shooting in a playoff series and get absolutely shredded with criticism for not playing well enough. There is no one, not MJ, not prime LeBron, nobody, who is held to this standard.

Nah this is wrong, I'm old enough to remember how Lebron was treated in the 00s. He got ripped in very similar ways. His 2009-2010-2011 playoffs were mauled by many people here in a similar fashion to how Jokic's games get mauled.

If people claim a player has a GOAT level peak, which some do for Jokic, that will invite skeptics who are ready to pounce.

The only strain of Jokic skepticism that is him being untraditional. You have the normal "he's overrated" skeptics I describe above and people who sincerely believe that you can't dominate a basketball game as a big without being a shotblocker or with his physical limitations.

FWIW, I'm a huge Jokic believer.

[TinmanZBoy]

Yeah he's averaging +5.5 game level EPM and +12.9 BPM through 2 games. All the other Nuggets starters are averaging negative EPM.

Nobody held to his standard? LeBron was criticized heavily if he passed the ball instead of shooting down the stretch of games. Jokic has done this in both games so far. MJ played before the internet existed. There wasn't a platform to criticize him (he also never really lost in his prime).

Unfortunately those EPM BPM rankings don't win games. I imagine you've both watched these games. Has Jokic been aggressive enough? Do his teammates really have a chance to be playmakers at all in that system they run? Was Jokics defense not embarrassing in the first half of game 1? Were his 7 turnovers (forcing passes) not an issue in game 2? This guy is peddaled by many on here as having the GOAT peak. Yeah expectations are high then, and he's underperformed them so far. The criticism is justified.

Those numbers are nice. He hasn't dominated either game by any means though. At no point has it been like how are they going to slow Jokic. Thats great, but not special at all.

You can nitpick any game from any player if you really try hard enough. EPM and BPM aren't gospel, but they a nice sanity check and definitely point in the direction of Jokic having a great series and the other Nuggets starters being mid

Joker is the consensus best player right now… of course people hold him to the highest standard… the thing about him is, with the way Nuggets playing, he would not have a bad stats even if he had a bad game… people expect him dominating, but he hasn’t

[ejftw]

This might as well be a highlight video of all the flops and embellishments Jokic pulled in game 2.

Watch on YouTube

I hope refs watch these as well.
Should give him Technical early in the game and he wouldn’t flop the rest of that game.
And Lue should definitely challenge one of Jokic’s flops

Just curious, is there any way we can stop clutching out pearls about Jokic flopping in a series that features James Harden? Any chance of that at all? Any?

As soon as Harden goes flying because Earl Boykins looks at him or Spudd Webb touches him, then we can be on the same page

[Special_Puppy]

Nobody held to his standard? LeBron was criticized heavily if he passed the ball instead of shooting down the stretch of games. Jokic has done this in both games so far. MJ played before the internet existed. There wasn't a platform to criticize him (he also never really lost in his prime).

Unfortunately those EPM BPM rankings don't win games. I imagine you've both watched these games. Has Jokic been aggressive enough? Do his teammates really have a chance to be playmakers at all in that system they run? Was Jokics defense not embarrassing in the first half of game 1? Were his 7 turnovers (forcing passes) not an issue in game 2? This guy is peddaled by many on here as having the GOAT peak. Yeah expectations are high then, and he's underperformed them so far. The criticism is justified.

Those numbers are nice. He hasn't dominated either game by any means though. At no point has it been like how are they going to slow Jokic. Thats great, but not special at all.

You can nitpick any game from any player if you really try hard enough. EPM and BPM aren't gospel, but they a nice sanity check and definitely point in the direction of Jokic having a great series and the other Nuggets starters being mid

Joker is the consensus best player right now… of course people hold him to the highest standard… the thing about him is, with the way Nuggets playing, he would not have a bad stats even if he had a bad game… people expect him dominating, but he hasn’t

He’s averaged +5.5 EPM and +12.9 BPM this series. I’m not sure what level of play would satisfy Jokic critics/skeptics because they’re always going to find something to be unhappy about. For instance, Even if he has a great game skeptics/critics are just going to focus on the sequence and timing of the events to criticize Jokic.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[Wolfgang630]

They get a pass since Adelman confirms a lot of people got sick