2024-2025 NBA Playoffs Round 1, Game 2: (7) Orlando Magic at (2) Boston Celtics - 7pm ET

[dsg2021]

Goga knows he is going to get 6-14 minutes. He’s not in the game plans. He’s an enforcer. Talking about his 4 fouls as bad is a poor understanding of basketball. 1 Block to WCJ’s 0. Almost half of WCJ’s Rebounds in 4x less Minutes. WCJ team worst +/- and Goga team best basically. KP literally has to go through Concussion Protocol testing now. I know pepe is also salivating like a demon waiting for Franz to outshine Paolo in a game too. Great job Paolo on the 7 Assists to 0 TO. Should’ve been like 11 Assists to 0 TO if it wasn’t for 24 3P% Team Shooting. Too bad we can’t raise both Paolo and Franz up here. My first post-game post was to say Franz should have been involved more, but it sounds like I have to pick a side yet again in here thanks to people like pepe.

Among all takes this is ... A take?

"Enforcer" does what? Shows em how tough you are while also sending team to bonus, making every next foul being awarded with 2 FTA? Great. Real highly advanced basketball right there. Why not have one assassin to break leg of Brown in next?
Down by 11, he makes flagrant 1 foul, sents KP to FT line and ball on a side, Celtics score 4 points off one idiotic play to finish 3rd quarter.

I know pepe is also salivating like a demon waiting for Franz to outshine Paolo in a game too.

Ever since playoffs rolled, i'm yet to make single comment about Franz. or Paolo.

My first post-game post was to say Franz should have been involved more, but it sounds like I have to pick a side yet again in here thanks to people like pepe.

let's play a game. You find where i said anything close to what you are suggesting in last two games and i will never post here again.

Like, you either confused my post with somebody else or i don't know what's going on

I very specifically said that offense can't be two guy taking 60% of shots. My personal opinion about Franz- Paolo if, you are interested, after 2 games is way different than you insinuate.

1. Do you understand what Boxscore +/- means? Team was closest to winning with Goga in the game. No thanks for me to cherry picking one play. Because I could point to zero BOS offensive boards and Goga’s block and cleanup dunk. And by the way, if KP enters Concussion Protocol from it, then make sure you send Goga your fruit basket for the 6 game series.

2. Note I said “WAITING” as in you haven’t yet, but you are waiting on it so you can bring it all up again like you’ve done, oh, I don’t know, 20+ times in the regular season. That’s why a few months ago I was trying to get you to reach a conclusion and start asking for one of Paolo or Franz traded. Complaining without standing on constructive criticism is lame. Do better.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Read on Twitter

Franz looks absolutely frustrated about his 3 ball

[pepe1991]

Goga knows he is going to get 6-14 minutes. He’s not in the game plans. He’s an enforcer. Talking about his 4 fouls as bad is a poor understanding of basketball. 1 Block to WCJ’s 0. Almost half of WCJ’s Rebounds in 4x less Minutes. WCJ team worst +/- and Goga team best basically. KP literally has to go through Concussion Protocol testing now. I know pepe is also salivating like a demon waiting for Franz to outshine Paolo in a game too. Great job Paolo on the 7 Assists to 0 TO. Should’ve been like 11 Assists to 0 TO if it wasn’t for 24 3P% Team Shooting. Too bad we can’t raise both Paolo and Franz up here. My first post-game post was to say Franz should have been involved more, but it sounds like I have to pick a side yet again in here thanks to people like pepe.

Among all takes this is ... A take?

"Enforcer" does what? Shows em how tough you are while also sending team to bonus, making every next foul being awarded with 2 FTA? Great. Real highly advanced basketball right there. Why not have one assassin to break leg of Brown in next?
Down by 11, he makes flagrant 1 foul, sents KP to FT line and ball on a side, Celtics score 4 points off one idiotic play to finish 3rd quarter.

I know pepe is also salivating like a demon waiting for Franz to outshine Paolo in a game too.

Ever since playoffs rolled, i'm yet to make single comment about Franz. or Paolo.

My first post-game post was to say Franz should have been involved more, but it sounds like I have to pick a side yet again in here thanks to people like pepe.

let's play a game. You find where i said anything close to what you are suggesting in last two games and i will never post here again.

Like, you either confused my post with somebody else or i don't know what's going on

I very specifically said that offense can't be two guy taking 60% of shots. My personal opinion about Franz- Paolo if, you are interested, after 2 games is way different than you insinuate.

1. Do you understand what Boxscore +/- means? Team was closest to winning with Goga in the game. No thanks for me to cherry picking one play. Because I could point to zero BOS offensive boards and Goga’s block and cleanup dunk. And by the way, if KP enters Concussion Protocol from it, then make sure you send Goga your fruit basket for the 6 game series.

2. Note I said “WAITING” as in you haven’t yet, but you are waiting on it so you can bring it all up again like you’ve done, oh, I don’t know, 20+ times in the regular season. That’s why a few months ago I was trying to get you to reach a conclusion and start asking for one of Paolo or Franz traded. Complaining without standing on constructive criticism is lame. Do better.

Plus minus over one games means jack shi*.
Houstan didn't do anything and had second highest on a team.


So you read mind now? Find somebody else to shuehorn into "trade Banchero/Franz" wagon because again, i was never on that train.

[Optimus_Steel]

Most people here are crying about the team construction but I think we could have challenged boston for that serie with suggs+Moe

A lot of the roster is very flawed.
Paolo and Franz are so good that it’d minimum be 1-1 coming back to Orlando if we had even one of Suggs or Mo.

I get the sense that alot of Magic fans may not agree with this and I'm as frustrated with our front office as anyone is, but I feel that we are not that far away from being a contender. We need to keep adding to the roster, use our assets and swing for the fences to add PG and SG help and shooting/ball handling. They don't even need to be stars, just good enough, and this team is contending. I'm mad at this front office but we are not that far away.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Most people here are crying about the team construction but I think we could have challenged boston for that serie with suggs+Moe

A lot of the roster is very flawed.
Paolo and Franz are so good that it’d minimum be 1-1 coming back to Orlando if we had even one of Suggs or Mo.

I get the sense that alot of Magic fans may not agree with this and I'm as frustrated with our front office as anyone is, but I feel that we are not that far away from being a contender. We need to keep adding to the roster, use our assets and swing for the fences to add PG and SG help and shooting/ball handling. They don't even need to be stars, just good enough, and this team is contending. I'm mad at this front office but we are not that far away.

would agree with this but that doesn't change the fact that our FO has seen the same issue we've had for 3 years and done nothing to try and fix it. Now after his stupid comments of us being squeezed at the deadline we're floundering offensively in the playoffs and GMs will likely squeeze us even harder.

White got much more expensive, Portland went on a roll post ASB so are they even looking to move Simons, Danny Ainge licking his lips for Sexton watching us flounder.

The price to improve this roster went from $1 to $2

[YosemiteSam]

I mean, we lost by 9 points on the road to the defending champs who won 20 more games than us this year and are full of solid professionals who are well coached and focused. They were missing their best player, but have 4 other All Stars and we are missing our 3rd and 4th best players who might be our best defender and our 2nd best offensive player. I think everyone needs to really think about whether any of this is a surprise to get upset about. The only thing that I'm annoyed by is how a$$ KCP is playing. He was our big bet this year, and he just straight sucks and basically has all season. C'mon bro - show some heart. And I'm still mad about the Jett pick because we all saw that as terrible the moment it happened - we could not afford a complete whiff on a lottery pick at this stage - we needed an OKC-style late lottery pick (Jalen Williams, Cason Wallace, etc.)

[eyriq]

The Magics defense has been excellent; it's offense has failed.

Disagree, the defense has been bad

[eyriq]

Read on Twitter

22 year olds aren't usually this good. Franz and Paolo are special, one of the best young cores of all time. Over the next two off-seasons we've just got to handle this transition into contention right.

The hard part is done, though. Which is why I don't get the moaning and groaning. Weltman drafted TWO franchise players and TWO quality starters/third option talents. Those four players alone account for 80% of the team building requirements.

Building around Paolo, Franz, Suggs, and AB now begins in earnest. We need two more quality starters and a sixth man and we've got more than enough resources to acquire them. Full MLE and two trades and we are there. It'll probably take two off-seasons to fully complete the build and that's ok.

When will this broken record thing stop? "one of the best young cores of all time" - Franz is 24, he is good, but one of the best of all times he is not.

I mean you are really going to die on this hill, right? Weltman has done excellent job and blah blah. Reality doesnt change your opinion even the slightest..

It'll never stop, the evidence is overwhelming. What we do with it won't change the evaluation, it'll either prove we capitalized on it or somehow messed it up like OKC and Minny did before us.

[eyriq]

You know what people decidedly DON’T want to hear after the team loses a winnable playoff game because of a combination of personnel and coaching deficiencies?

How great the core is compared to other cores.

Perspective is good for the soul.

[VFX]

Franz and Paolo aren't playmakers. Playmakers are game manipulators who get others involved and control defense. Paolo and Franz take what defense gives them. And they play right into this.

Casual fans will be so outraged about "supporting cast" once they bounce us in 4-5 games. In reality everything bad about offense starts with Franz and Paolo . It's not really only their fault, there is no PG on roster, coach can't coach for s***, but this is a series where your two stars look great as they shoot near 60% of all shots, average 30 points each and you are losing by 15 with min left without best opposing player playing.

Basketball is team sport. You need to have offense that involves others.

You will never be serious basketball team with deep playoff runs with 30 mid range shots a game.

It's borderline insanity that we are in 2025 and i talk why mid range shooting vs 3 point shooting is losing basketball concept.

This is the sad truth about Orlando’s situation.

The Magic are sold on a Celtics-esque core with two forwards, but neither of them are good enough shooters to open up the offense. Also, couldn’t agree more that neither are really playmakers on top of that.

In order for both of them to work you have to have an efficient back court that can set those guys up from outside-in. Teams will not respect two guys driving into midrange or the basket as an entire offense. Suggs can be 1/2 of the equation, but the other skillset doesn’t exist on the roster.

Mid range shots are the worst shots in the game. Why? Because they are less than 3 and have zero variability outcome, meaning you aren’t given the possibility of getting fouled as you do attacking the rim, which isn’t really great either when you lack the other option regardless.

The issue is coaching and roster construction. It always has been. In 3-4 years they went from the Fultz experiment to shifting players around in position-less basketball because it’s convenient as opposed to acquiring players that make sense.

The offense shouldn’t look as bad as it does when you DO go out and pay Gary Harris (shooter) and KCP (shooter) in the previous offseason. Too bad that’s not how things work in reality. You have to actually develop a system that moves and sets those guys up to be utilized instead of waiting to be an escape outlet.

Everything will always come back to Franz and Paolo. Mosely has given them the green light to “play their game” and we have not seen once in multiple seasons them expand or improve upon what they aren’t doing well, like shooting off the dribble consistently, catch and shoot 3’s, running pick and pop/roll more often etc. None of that has to do with a supporting cast. Those are coaching and development issues. Good coaches aren’t allowing that.

[CLosP]

It's borderline insanity that we are in 2025 and i talk why mid range shooting vs 3 point shooting is losing basketball concept.

Most Magic fans say we take too many threes for how bad of a shooting team we are and laugh at the "by committee" stuff and want Franz/Paolo to do most of it. I disagree with that notion but it's just funny to see how most people want this but then say the offense isn't great.

On the flip side, it's also just the realistic ceilings/play of our players right now. Harden/Kawhi run a TON of isos and shoot a bunch of middies-floaters, but they also shoot a lot of threes and average 35-40% there to offset it.

Also, a lot of the offensive talent is so streaky/bad that it's hard for any of them to even justify like 12-13 attempts regularly unless your name was Moe Wagner or Suggs.

Idealistic version of this team? Yes. It's easy to do that when you have Holiday, White, Pritchard, Porzingis, etc.. harder when it's a bunch of guys that you couldn't trust to give you 10 points versus the Wizards.

Most Magic fans, like most fans of other teams/sports, don't really understand sport from "ball through hoop = 2 points sometimes 3 " concept.
Yesterday i went on reddit and my God, that place gets more delusional with every hour, no matter what team you click on.

Basketball changed into 3 point era. We can have personal opinions do we like it or not, i'm not biggest fan, but it is what it is.

After 1st games of 1st rounds:
League's average: three point shot 12 FGM/ 34 FGA / 35,3% accuracy
56% TS, 52,7% eFG , 104,6 ppg, 21,7 apg

Magic three point : 8,5 FGM ( second lowest behind Memphis) / 28 FGA (lowest), 30,4% accuracy (3rd lowest, within 0,4% of second worst)
51,1% TS ( 3rd lowest) , 50% eFG (4th lowest) , 93 ppg ( second lowest) , 17,5 apg ( tied with second lowest)

Clippers are very efficient offense in playoffs (4th best in eFG & TS, 37% for 3 ) because aside from Harden/Kawhi, they still generate offense for others. Zubac has 18,5 ppg on 64% TS, Powell struggles, but gets 12,5 ppg, Batum & Dunn give them 7,5 ppg each.

Our 3rd scorer averages 10 ppg, but once again, we go back to not even being in position where they can score.

Carter 7 FGA
KCP 7 FGA
Black 6 FGA

It is hard to score where you are both: bad self creator and nobody looks to find you.

If i'm going with Clippers comparison :
Powell 13 FGA
Zubac 12,5 FGA
Dunn 7,5 FGA
Batum 5,5 FGA

it's not like Zubac is self creator, Dunn is anti- self creator, Batum is stand still shooter at this point of career. But mainly Harden is looking after them and they have system that gets looks for everybody, despite fact both Harden and Kawhi sometimes have tunnel vision (especially Kawhi ).

harder when it's a bunch of guys that you couldn't trust to give you 10 points versus the Wizards

Yea, but this is Weltman's roster and vision. Simply overvalued defense at massive expense of offense. Than you go to playoffs against elite offense that moves ball at exponentially high level. And your defense goes to s*** (120,5 def rating, 3rd worst) and you still have no offense to compensate.
Most hilarious part is that we still make 2FGA at unrealistic level to be sustainable, so offense looks better than it is

I understand what you’re saying but first off, comparing Kawhi & Harden to Paolo/Franz is insane lol. Those two will most likely never be as good as they are especially with Franz having a broken 3pt shot. Also, you can absolutely dump the ball down low to Zubac & have him get a bucket in the paint. Norman is also a guy who is way better at creating his own shot than any third option this team has (healthy or not).

I understand ball movement is ideal but there’s no way you’re going to keep giving the ball to KCP to chuck up more bricks last night. He can’t create his own shot & most of his attempts were open. AB is still HIGHLY inconsistent offensively & he’s scared to even dribble the ball up like a traditional PG should.

I know this forum for the most part likes to criticize Paolo every chance they get but I’m not taking the ball out of his or Franz hands for the other guys to figure it out. The only hope this team has is they feel comfortable at home & someone steps up. I hate to say it but if you want someone chucking up shot attempts & 3s that’s Cole Anthony lol. This roster isn’t constructed for multiple guys to jack up shots. Hell half the time people are not even moving around just ball watching. We can continue to beat a dead horse but without actual offensive talent, this is what the team looks like. If KCP wasn’t shooting at will playing alongside Jokic/LeBron, he’s not magically going to get better no matter how many times you think he should be passed the ball or get shot attempts.

[Knightro]

The Magics defense has been excellent; it's offense has failed.

Disagree, the defense has been bad

It *appears* the defense has been good because Boston's PPG is low, but that is only because the pace has been remarkably slow through two games.

The actual defense has been poor. I agree with you on that.

[three3d]

Some Magic fans have been extremely patient for 35-36 years, for me it’s been since 1994-95 . The next two home games I think it’s time for the fans to show up and express their frustration and be heard. It suck’s to root for people to be fired BUT Weltman made this bed now he has to lay in it. We just can’t keep doing this year after year, it’s time for change.

[eyriq]

Some Magic fans have been extremely patient for 35-36 years, for me it’s been since 1994-95 . The next two home games I think it’s time for the fans to show up and express their frustration and be heard. It suck’s to root for people to be fired BUT Weltman made this bed now he has to lay in it. We just can’t keep doing this year after year, it’s time for change.

Organizations just don't measure performance across such long horizons.

[rcklsscognition]

I don’t understand these NBA players and their shot form. I could go out there in any given day and shoot like anyone in the NBA form wise given a few dozen reps and a video assistant. I don’t get how it can be difficult given all their resources for Franz to fix or even try a different shot. He wouldn’t be allowed to shoot like he does in any Orlando Magic facility if I was running that place. We have to wait for an offseason to do these things? Even then it doesn’t seem to matter.

[three3d]

Some Magic fans have been extremely patient for 35-36 years, for me it’s been since 1994-95 . The next two home games I think it’s time for the fans to show up and express their frustration and be heard. It suck’s to root for people to be fired BUT Weltman made this bed now he has to lay in it. We just can’t keep doing this year after year, it’s time for change.

Organizations just don't measure performance across such long horizons.

Every 5-8 years it’s the same thing, hit the manual factory reset and do same thing all over again. It’s tiring and the fans ( not the owners) deserve to have a Championship finally.

[three3d]

I don’t understand these NBA players and their shot form. I could go out there in any given day and shoot like anyone in the NBA form wise given a few dozen reps and a video assistant. I don’t get how it can be difficult given all their resources for Franz to be allowed to shoot like he does in any Orlando Magic facility.

It’s annoying when you consider the mechanics of a shot are all basically muscle memory. Thousands and thousands of jumpers and three-pointers it becomes natural. You don’t even have to look where you are on the court, just see the room and you don’t even have to think about it.

[eyriq]

The “young core” debate is genuinely one of the worst in the history of the board.

The parameters to establish what a “young core” even is were intentionally made so narrow to make the Magic’s group appear far better than it actually is.

“No, no, it only counts if it’s THREE guys not one or two and they all have to be a certain age and they all have to play a certain amount of minutes too!”

Everyone sees through this nonsense too, but the guy perpetuating it just powers right on through it.

You are data savvy but obviously lack basic analytics chops. You can attack the validity of my analysis all you want but it's a bad look for you. A metric that is the weighted average age of the team's top three players in minutes is useful as a feature in a predictive model to explain team wins. Variances in wins away from what you'd expect based on the weighted average age of a team's top three players in minutes highlights outliers. Orlando is an extreme outlier. I've shared the list of teams with weighted average ages similar to Orlando's for context for this board. It's interesting to see for those that are intellectually curious. Maybe not for the know-it-all's though?

[eyriq]

When every critique launched against Mosley or Paolo or Franz can be explained away by citing "age" or "injuries" it's just a bad look for the critical. Use some perspective instead of knee-jerk complaining.

[pepe1991]

I don’t understand these NBA players and their shot form. I could go out there in any given day and shoot like anyone in the NBA form wise given a few dozen reps and a video assistant. I don’t get how it can be difficult given all their resources for Franz to fix or even try a different shot. He wouldn’t be allowed to shoot like he does in any Orlando Magic facility if I was running that place. We have to wait for an offseason to do these things? Even then it doesn’t seem to matter.

¸
Because nba players, especially young ones, are still mental idiots ( athlets in general are).
So they spend hours scrolling through tik tok & instagram and find "shot gurus" with huge following, assume paying "shot doctor" some 100K over summer is smart and those guys have no f*** clue what they are doing and as a result you have Franz Wagner jumpshot. Markelle Fultz jumpshot, MKG shooting mechanics etc.


Lebron spends million dollar a year on his body and couldn't find coach that knows how to squat with proper form.

I always go back to a story from soccer assistent coach from Polish division 1 team. He says that they send players on free weekend. They return overtrained and pull muscles. So he started following them on instagram to figure all of them hire some idiots that overcook them over 2-3 workouts, post 10000 posts on instagram to boost following and players return in worst form than they were before free weekend.

Drew Hanlen is one of those "shot experts" who worked with Fultz. 242 k followers on instagram.
Basketball career:
1,9 ppg as freshman on 34% FG on Belmont.

Career 6,5 ppg player /40% for 3 shooter.

Chris Matthews - shot expert, 4 million followers on IG, career: 35% for 3 at college for 9,2 ppg. 28% for 3 in D league


It's like getting diet instructions from Tess Holilday

Late edit.both "shot doctors" never played professional basketball at any level but amateur college league and semi amateur D league from 2011 ( back in a day D league had open trails )