Top 10 Offensive Players ever?

[trex_8063]

Haven't read any replies so as to not be influenced by prior opinion....

The obvious picks for me are:
LeBron
Magic
Jokic
Jordan
Oscar
Steph
Nash

That those seven feel so "certain" in my mind makes me think that that is my top 7 [in some order.....though I feel like I probably put Nash 6th or 7th among them].
After that?.....

Chris Paul is in contention.
Kevin Durant is in contention.
Larry Bird is in contention.
James Harden deserves a look.

After that, I wonder about some [potentially?] dark-horse picks like Dirk, Shaq, and maybe Sir Charles and Reggie Miller.

So idk; pick three of those chaps to fill in the gaps.

EDIT [after reads few replies]: will give muttered HM to Kobe, and yes I think Shai and Luka are newer guys worth a mention. Also Kareem deserves at least an HM (maybe he could sneak in around 9th or 10th).

[Top10alltime]

My clear top 7 (GOAT tier) in chronological order are:

Oscar
Magic
Jordan
Nash
James
Curry
Jokic

Next tier looks probably like this (all-time tier):

West
Kareem
Bird
Barkley
Shaq
Kobe
Dirk
Durant
Paul
Harden

Maybe I missed someone, but that's the rough list. HM to Moses, Wilt, Wade and Barry. Luka will be probably there soon as well.

Recently, as I started tracking, I now am agreeing with the clear GOAT tier offensively, ordering them is tough though.

For the all-time tier I might add in Karl Malone as well, other than that it's good. I might make a compilation tracking all of these guys best offensive games, to compare them offensively to see who ranks higher, and if anyone else can come in.

Other thing is I feel like if wilt or Barry is there, they should have at least 1 opoy in their career. Same thing for Moses and wade.

[Narigo]

Jordan
LeBron
Magic
Oscar
Kareem
Shaq
Jokic
Kobe
West
Wilt

[TheGOATRises007]

Jordan
LeBron
Magic
Oscar
Kareem
Shaq
Jokic
Kobe
West
Wilt

No Curry?

[TheGOATRises007]

My clear top 7 (GOAT tier) in chronological order are:

Oscar
Magic
Jordan
Nash
James
Curry
Jokic

Next tier looks probably like this (all-time tier):

West
Kareem
Bird
Barkley
Shaq
Kobe
Dirk
Durant
Paul
Harden

Maybe I missed someone, but that's the rough list. HM to Moses, Wilt, Wade and Barry. Luka will be probably there soon as well.

I'd agree with this. I'd have the same list basically.

[Top10alltime]

Jordan
LeBron
Magic
Oscar
Kareem
Shaq
Jokic
Kobe
West
Wilt

All these guys should be lower

[Top10alltime]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

Not only Jokic, but also

Shaq
Kareem
Dirk
Chuck
KM

Along with Jokic these bigs are better offensively than Wilt.

[penbeast0]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

Not only Jokic, but also

Shaq
Kareem
Dirk
Chuck
KM

Along with Jokic these bigs are better offensively than Wilt.

He said center so Dirk, Chuck, and the Mailman aren't really in play. I have Kareem higher on offense too; Shaq is shakier but if you have his passing giving him a strong advantage over high scoring Wilt then I can see it.

[penbeast0]

Going back to Doctor MJ's TS Added spreadsheet https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2018400&start=80, the greatest statistical scorers (+400 TS Added) seems a good place to start. It isn't a finish as it ignores playmaking/turnovers and playoff resiliency but it's a reasonable first cut to see who we are ignoring, then to look at why. Remember that TS Added looks at scoring volume and efficiency relative to league average.

Wilt 62, 67 (also strong playmaking for a big)
Kareem 71,72
Dantley 84
Barkley 88
Curry 2016

Kevin Durant 13 and 14 should also get a mention as the only other two seasons on the spreadsheet that scored over a 380 TS Added. These are arguably the greatest scoring seasons in NBA history. I notice Dantley has gotten zero mentions while everyone else has been mentioned multiple times . . . which is pretty typical of how he is normally seen.

Alternatively, one other measure that seems to inform a lot of these opinions would be league wide scoring efficient (Team Ortg) though we may tend to over credit the primary offensive mover, particularly the PG, for those performances.

[migya]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

Not only Jokic, but also

Shaq
Kareem
Dirk
Chuck
KM

Along with Jokic these bigs are better offensively than Wilt.

He said center so Dirk, Chuck, and the Mailman aren't really in play. I have Kareem higher on offense too; Shaq is shakier but if you have his passing giving him a strong advantage over high scoring Wilt then I can see it.

I don't see any of those guys as better offensively than Chamberlain, though Kareem could be. Chamberlain's passing also is best among them

[SpreeS]

By eras (scoring/efficiency/playmaking/shooting/spacing/gravity)

60ies Oscar/West/Wilt
70ies KAJ
80ies Magic/Bird
90ies Jordan
00ies O'Neal/Nash
10ies Lebron/Curry
20ies Jokic

HM Durant/Harden/Paul/Doncic/Kobe/Barkley/Malone/Dirk/Giannis

[Top10alltime]

Not only Jokic, but also

Shaq
Kareem
Dirk
Chuck
KM

Along with Jokic these bigs are better offensively than Wilt.

He said center so Dirk, Chuck, and the Mailman aren't really in play. I have Kareem higher on offense too; Shaq is shakier but if you have his passing giving him a strong advantage over high scoring Wilt then I can see it.

I don't see any of those guys as better offensively than Chamberlain, though Kareem could be. Chamberlain's passing also is best among them

All of those guys are better offensively, wilt scoring didn't affect his teams much.

Shaq gravity is enough to beat wilt.
Kareem scoring and playmaking both better than wilt.
Charles clear wilt as playmaker.

Dirk off ball game, scoring and spacing clear wilt.

Least convinced on karl, but his longevity is definitely enough

[migya]

He said center so Dirk, Chuck, and the Mailman aren't really in play. I have Kareem higher on offense too; Shaq is shakier but if you have his passing giving him a strong advantage over high scoring Wilt then I can see it.

I don't see any of those guys as better offensively than Chamberlain, though Kareem could be. Chamberlain's passing also is best among them

All of those guys are better offensively, wilt scoring didn't affect his teams much.

Shaq gravity is enough to beat wilt.
Kareem scoring and playmaking both better than wilt.
Charles clear wilt as playmaker.

Dirk off ball game, scoring and spacing clear wilt.

Least convinced on karl, but his longevity is definitely enough

Chamberlain was the most effective player on his teams early career. Had some nice players on them but Chamberlain was far and away the best scorer in his era and his gravity was in line with that. His playmaking, particularly in Philly, was far better than any of those bigs.

[TT8198]

1. Nikola Jokic
2. LeBron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Stephen Curry
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Michael Jordan
7. Oscar Robertson
8. James Harden
9. Steve Nash
10. Kevin Durant

Sent from my SM-S916U using RealGM mobile app

[Top10alltime]

I don't see any of those guys as better offensively than Chamberlain, though Kareem could be. Chamberlain's passing also is best among them

All of those guys are better offensively, wilt scoring didn't affect his teams much.

Shaq gravity is enough to beat wilt.
Kareem scoring and playmaking both better than wilt.
Charles clear wilt as playmaker.

Dirk off ball game, scoring and spacing clear wilt.

Least convinced on karl, but his longevity is definitely enough

Chamberlain was the most effective player on his teams early career. Had some nice players on them but Chamberlain was far and away the best scorer in his era and his gravity was in line with that. His playmaking, particularly in Philly, was far better than any of those bigs.

His gravity is clearly not better than shaqs or kareem if you watch the games. Same for all their playmaking.

You could put karl malone or Chuck below and that would be fine. But anything higher than that and you are overrating wilts offensive game.

[70sFan]

All of those guys are better offensively, wilt scoring didn't affect his teams much.

Shaq gravity is enough to beat wilt.
Kareem scoring and playmaking both better than wilt.
Charles clear wilt as playmaker.

Dirk off ball game, scoring and spacing clear wilt.

Least convinced on karl, but his longevity is definitely enough

Chamberlain was the most effective player on his teams early career. Had some nice players on them but Chamberlain was far and away the best scorer in his era and his gravity was in line with that. His playmaking, particularly in Philly, was far better than any of those bigs.

His gravity is clearly not better than shaqs or kareem if you watch the games. Same for all their playmaking.

You could put karl malone or Chuck below and that would be fine. But anything higher than that and you are overrating wilts offensive game.

What makes Shaq's or Kareem's playmaking clearly better than Wilt's?

[ShotCreator]

Obviously Jokic is in these discussions, but to keep climbing he needs to produce all-time playoff offenses. He’s yet to have a +10 rORtg series.



On that note, for those having Curry at the very top or near that, he also has not produced as many all time playoff offenses especially in the non-Durant years relative to others on this list.

Good data but I really wouldn’t go as far as demanding all-time playoff offensive performances to have a rightful place in this list.

Jokic and first stint LeBron’s teams seem about equal on output.

No one has ever played as well as 09 LeBron in the playoffs, and his team failed to crack +10 ORTG twice.

I don’t think 16-18 LeBron did anything even close to enough to account for the team performance gap. I think he faced weaker defenses with better teammates. Jokic has had Murray twice in the past 4 playoffs, and he sucked in one of them.

Even Jordan’s offenses look better in his worse, older years it seems.

[therealbig3]

Curry generally does play a little worse in the playoffs and generally has not led all time level playoff offenses. He's still amazing, but I don't think he's really separated himself as an offensive player from the likes of Kobe, Dirk, Shaq, etc. Kobe in particular tends to be a little underrated offensively on this forum specifically imo, he consistently led +8ish level playoff offenses on those 08-10 Lakers, which Curry was not able to do outside of the KD years (except for maybe 2022, I can't remember off the top of my head...the 08-10 Lakers definitely did better offensively than the 15 and 16 Warriors did though, which still says a lot), which I do think is a bit of a cheat code and not really fair to compare those results to other superstars, because I don't think anyone had the luxury of adding KD to a core that already had the best offense in the league and had just won 140 games in the previous 2 seasons.

Jokic for the same reasons, Nuggets playoff offenses haven't been that impressive, and Jokic himself has looked quite mortal going back to the T-Wolves series last year. He didn't have a great 1st round against LAC either and got bailed out to a degree (in the context of ATG offensive anchors, obviously he was still their best player and still led the way, but that was a very lose-able series and Jokic would quite fairly get a lot of the blame if they did lose, because he should have played a lot better).

So with that said, my top 4 is pretty clearly LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Nash, in that order. Nash has the team results, but he also was on teams that were very clearly geared towards offensive production, and I think he's just more limited as a scorer than the aforementioned guys (although obviously he could score when needed). I also think there's something to be said about LeBron and Jordan and even Magic being less of a liability on defense, which does help a team offensively as well. When Nash played with more defensive-oriented lineups, they still did great offensively, but they were no longer game-breaking. But I could see Nash anywhere from 1-4, depending on how you see him.

I think after that, there are a lot of guys with good arguments. Like I said, I have Curry, Kobe, Dirk, Shaq in the same general tier. Jokic of course needs to be considered. Oscar and West should be considered, although we have less data on them. KD has been an anchor for some really great playoff offenses, even before Curry, although the driving force of those offenses may have been Westbrook. Harden I can't really consider because of the disappointing playoffs. Chris Paul for the same reasons honestly.

Kareem should be considered if Shaq is as well, don't see a good reason to think Shaq was clearly better offensively, especially given the FT issues. And again, being a good defender helps your offense as well.

[therealbig3]

Obviously Jokic is in these discussions, but to keep climbing he needs to produce all-time playoff offenses. He’s yet to have a +10 rORtg series.



On that note, for those having Curry at the very top or near that, he also has not produced as many all time playoff offenses especially in the non-Durant years relative to others on this list.

Good data but I really wouldn’t go as far as demanding all-time playoff offensive performances to have a rightful place in this list.

Jokic and first stint LeBron’s teams seem about equal on output.

No one has ever played as well as 09 LeBron in the playoffs, and his team failed to crack +10 ORTG twice.

I don’t think 16-18 LeBron did anything even close to enough to account for the team performance gap. I think he faced weaker defenses with better teammates. Jokic has had Murray twice in the past 4 playoffs, and he sucked in one of them.

Even Jordan’s offenses look better in his worse, older years it seems.

23 Nuggets had a pretty easy run, Murray played great, in fact the whole supporting cast did, and the Nuggets didn't light it up offensively in those playoffs either.

I think anchoring an all time great playoff offense should be a requirement. I think context can be considered, but a truly GOAT-level offensive player can elevate an offense to amazing heights almost by themselves, LeBron in 09 is actually a testament to that. The Cavs with him on the court had a relative ORating of like +9.8. Average for conference finalists is like +6. That's an all-time great offense.

[parsnips33]

Curry generally does play a little worse in the playoffs and generally has not led all time level playoff offenses. He's still amazing, but I don't think he's really separated himself as an offensive player from the likes of Kobe, Dirk, Shaq, etc. Kobe in particular tends to be a little underrated offensively on this forum specifically imo, he consistently led +8ish level playoff offenses on those 08-10 Lakers, which Curry was not able to do outside of the KD years (except for maybe 2022, I can't remember off the top of my head...the 08-10 Lakers definitely did better offensively than the 15 and 16 Warriors did though, which still says a lot), which I do think is a bit of a cheat code and not really fair to compare those results to other superstars, because I don't think anyone had the luxury of adding KD to a core that already had the best offense in the league and had just won 140 games in the previous 2 seasons.

Jokic for the same reasons, Nuggets playoff offenses haven't been that impressive, and Jokic himself has looked quite mortal going back to the T-Wolves series last year. He didn't have a great 1st round against LAC either and got bailed out to a degree (in the context of ATG offensive anchors, obviously he was still their best player and still led the way, but that was a very lose-able series and Jokic would quite fairly get a lot of the blame if they did lose, because he should have played a lot better).

So with that said, my top 4 is pretty clearly LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Nash, in that order. Nash has the team results, but he also was on teams that were very clearly geared towards offensive production, and I think he's just more limited as a scorer than the aforementioned guys (although obviously he could score when needed). I also think there's something to be said about LeBron and Jordan and even Magic being less of a liability on defense, which does help a team offensively as well. When Nash played with more defensive-oriented lineups, they still did great offensively, but they were no longer game-breaking. But I could see Nash anywhere from 1-4, depending on how you see him.

I think after that, there are a lot of guys with good arguments. Like I said, I have Curry, Kobe, Dirk, Shaq in the same general tier. Jokic of course needs to be considered. Oscar and West should be considered, although we have less data on them. KD has been an anchor for some really great playoff offenses, even before Curry, although the driving force of those offenses may have been Westbrook. Harden I can't really consider because of the disappointing playoffs. Chris Paul for the same reasons honestly.

Kareem should be considered if Shaq is as well, don't see a good reason to think Shaq was clearly better offensively, especially given the FT issues. And again, being a good defender helps your offense as well.

I just think there has to be some consistency in how all 5 players on the floor impact the overall offensive rating. Clearly, there's some recognition that KD being there vs not being there impacts the level of offense that Steph is able to "lead". Same goes for Nash being on rosters that are geared toward offensive production. But then how do we decide how much is a result of this 1 guy vs the 4 teammates he's out there with? How comfortable are we using +8 playoff offense (or whatever you want to use) as a metric to compare individual players versus entire teams?