Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Pro: could mean we are letting him run the show instead of owners
Con: could just be a payoff to be the fall guy to trade Giannis this summer

[msiris]

Timing is stupid. Why not wait till after the playoffs?

[LUKE23]

Timing is stupid. Why not wait till after the playoffs?

This was done today (day 1 of NFL draft) intentionally, without question.

[SirChurros]

I find it hard to believe this is ownership realizing something profound and they’ll let Horst do what he wants. But sure, I’ll be an optimist and believe that to be the case because the alternative is very grim.

[Frank Nova]

Is Milwaukee really an appealing job for a new GM? I don’t really think so. As been pointed out now, we have zero draft assets and our salary cap situation is hell on the earth. Add to that, what GM wants to deal with the constant trade Giannis circus in the media? Would you want to be the GM that trades the cities greatest player of all time? I know I sure wouldn’t want to be public enemy in Milwaukee. After what Nico Harrison did, who wants to be Nico Harrison or even take over after him? Most likely, no one. We’re stuck with Horst for better or for worse at this point. Coaching Giannis is the prize job, GM’ing into his twilight years and completely restructuring the roster sounds like a nightmare especially when Jimmy Haslam is your boss on top of it all.

[Prez]

I’m not a huge Horst fan but I don’t *hate* him. So whatever I guess. I genuinely **** despise Doc though, so if he sticks around I’m gonna lose my mind.

[humanrefutation]

I had a lot of faith in the FO until the Middleton trade, which was so bad it threw every other decision into question. Did he pitch some 8 dimensional offseason plan that required getting under the 2nd apron, or does ownership just appreciate that he's willing to ride in the trunk?

The Middleton trade didn't shaken my faith. It was already shaken considerably by the Griffin/Doc debacle.

I've said many times here that I began to question Horst's talent evaluation and asset management acumen when it appeared to me that he was only capable of trading a lot of picks for established veterans of various quality, rather than actively identifying and insisting on the development of the kind of young, cheap talent which is necessary to extend a championship window.

But the Middleton trade just confirmed my suspicions. He ain't that good at his job, and I have no reason to believe he'll be able to turn this thing around before we're having to trade Giannis for $0.25 on the dollar to salvage something when he refuses to sign a new contract.

[aboveAverage]

Horst is a good GM. Don’t be too sure that we wouldn’t mess up his replacement like we messed up the head coach hire. I’m happy he got his extension.

I really don't think he's been good. We have already covered his draft picks. We have acquired the following players in the draft under Horst:

DJ Wilson
DDV
Nwora
Beauchamp
Livingston
Johnson
Smith

Wilson and Beauchamp were two of the worst picks in their respective drafts. DDV was a great pick for who was traded for 78 year-old Serge Ibaka. I liked Johnson, but again, he was included in an awful trade.

He did make three trades to upgrade our PG's, which worked out to various degrees. However, we did empty our draft chest to do this.

Hiring Grief and Doc were both terrible moves. Landing Kuzma was a terrible move.

Horst walked into this prime GA and prime Middleton. Since 2017, he added zero long-term pieces via the draft. His major player acquisitions were made by trading multiple first round picks.

I just don't see it. We need a great talent evaluator here.

That's all true, his draft record has been terrible. That's the only part of his tenure that makes me also unsure about him. But he's got a knack for signing good role players for cheap and obviously made the critical trades that led to our first championship in 50 years. Yes, he mortgaged our future draft capital, but it was worth it to win a championship. I'd make the Jrue trade 100/100 times knowing that result.

We were well positioned to win a few more titles in the following years but we got unlucky with injuries. Those things happen in sports.

The Dame trade took a lot of cunning and planning ahead. Not many GMs can pull that trade off. It was a worthwhile risk given Dame's performance the previous few seasons and it got Giannis to sign an extension, which is the most important part of maintaining this contender. Dame has been somewhat of a disappointment, but I don't fault that trade.

I choose to hope that he had no part in the Griff hiring or the Kuzma trade (I think this was forced on him for financial/luxury tax reasons). Those two moves were inexcusable.

I have faith that Horst can improve his draft record and that he now has the power to fire Doc this offseason and pick a coach he believes in.

[Ron Swanson]

Optimist take check list:

- Horst wanted Atkinson on two separate occasions (summer of 2023 & January 2024 after Griff firing) and this is ownership's "you were right" admission. They're gonna let him pick the coach this time (Giannis just needs to sign off).

- Kuzma trade was all Doc. Timing of the rumors going back to last deadline (February 2024) back this. Horst had other moves lined up to drop us below the 2nd apron (dumping Pat) or going after a legitimate upgrade/other distressed asset (LaVine and Jimmy rumors) but ownership (re: Haslam) backed Doc and split the difference (shedding salary and getting a younger player).

- Giannis values stability and loyalty. He likes Horst (he liked Hammond too FWIW). They have a relationship going back to when he first got here (under Hammond's staff). This was done to keep Giannis happy and indicate that there's a plan moving forward, and that Horst can find the next Bud to bring back the winning culture.

Or.....we're ****.

[chonestown]

Is Milwaukee really an appealing job for a new GM? I don’t really think so. As been pointed out now, we have zero draft assets and our salary cap situation is hell on the earth. Add to that, what GM wants to deal with the constant trade Giannis circus in the media? Would you want to be the GM that trades the cities greatest player of all time? I know I sure wouldn’t want to be public enemy in Milwaukee. After what Nico Harrison did, who wants to be Nico Harrison or even take over after him? Most likely, no one. We’re stuck with Horst for better or for worse at this point. Coaching Giannis is the prize job, GM’ing into his twilight years and completely restructuring the roster sounds like a nightmare especially when Jimmy Haslam is your boss on top of it all.

There is little settled on the roster. You already have an absolute kingpin. You have another top 75 guy still putting up numbers. This a chance for a gm to put his own stamp on the team while having the hardest to obtain portion already here. There's a lot of appeal for a job like that.

The various billionaires who own each and every one of the other NBA teams? All pieces of sht, I will not be fielding any questions. I will be taking +1s. Thanks for coming to my Ed Talk.

[Bernman]

Drafting: I'd put him about 25th percentile. A couple good 1sts in a vacuum, though 1 didn't fit our timeline well. Other 2 were abysmal. Seemed to have a weird fascination w/ old projects that had role player upside.

Trading: 5th percentile. He's steered into some of these by owners, Doc, & Giannis. But then he always ends up giving way too much. The league is genuinely going to make a Stepien rule w/ his name on it that prevents teams from making pick swaps every other year.

Free Agency: 95th percentile. But I think this is a team effort, like the areas in which it's been a debacle. They got some sweet talkers in this org to lure Brook, Bobby, Trent, etc. on their initial deals.

Asset Management: 5th percentile. This is another genuinely awful one because before going into the bad deals because they're also timed very poorly - Jrue, Midds, DiVo, Dame, Bled, etc. Gets out too late, or early. End up dealing for pennies on the dollar.

This is part an assessment of the entire FO. I wish we weren't back at the point of who does what, but this is where we are, & it's not a fun place.

[WeMajor34]

Hopefully this means Doc is as good as gone. Ownership may have actually had a moment of clarity regarding Doc's coaching and his talent evaluation (going with the theory that Doc wanted Kuz). If the Horst-Atkinson stuff is true, he should be given the keys to choosing the coach instead of ownership (Doc) and Giannis (Griffin) getting most of the say.

BUT I think this very well could be Horst collecting a massive payday and being fine with taking a backseat to meddling owners and/or Doc. If we lose the series and Doc is still the coach, my doubts become even more serious that this franchise can reverse itself back into full-blown contention.

From an optics standpoint, extending your GM after going down 0-2 in the playoffs in yet another disappointing year with a generational talent is definitely curious. The Phoenix (maybe other teams?) interest likely sealed the extension but it's insane timing.

Tinfoil hat time: this could also be ownership not-so-quietly telling Doc that he's on the hottest of hot seats if the team doesn't win the series

[soxperry]

Without knowing how much influence Bud and Doc have had on decision making, its hard to judge. But if Horst is the one who originally signed Brook Lopez, and then traded for Jrue and PJ Tucker, then one can safely say that he won us a title as much as Giannis and Khris did.

I want to add because people forget...

He got value for DDV in the Bogdan trade and then the league **** us. The follow up wasnt great but he originally did his job

[ajb905]

Last 2 coaching hires and Kuzma trade are fireable offenses. A good GM should have been able to make the case to the owners that those 3 decisions are bad and will not improve the team, if we think he wasn't leading those decisions.

Bucks are in position not to be messing around with an MVP player and title aspirations.

Doc being fired is necessary and obvious, but even with that, it's hard to put an optimist hat on that Horst will guide the team well

[Prez]

I personally am a believer that Horst's preference was Atkinson over Griffin and the "Giannis wants a former player" thing was a big driver in that initial decision. I'm less sure on this one, but based on everything Doc has been saying and doing with his lineup decisions, I kinda think he was the driving force in the Kuzma trade.

To me those are 2 of the 3 biggest stains on the FO the past several years, and I'm choosing (for my own sanity) to believe those weren't really Horst.

The 3rd one though is the drafting history, which...yeah, he sucks there.

[Bernman]

Without knowing how much influence Bud and Doc have had on decision making, its hard to judge. But if Horst is the one who originally signed Brook Lopez, and then traded for Jrue and PJ Tucker, then one can safely say that he won us a title as much as Giannis and Khris did.

Giannis & Midds carried that team. He built a modest amount around them, while giving up a ton - 4 1sts, for a playoff role player.

I want to add because people forget...

He got value for DDV in the Bogdan trade and then the league **** us. The follow up wasnt great but he originally did his job

DiVo is better than Bogdan. He should have been extended, if Lasry & co weren't penny-pinching at the time. So this hurts his case if anything.

He's bad at his job. It's just a question of how bad.

[paulpressey25]

Optimist take check list:

- Horst wanted Atkinson on two separate occasions (summer of 2023 & January 2024 after Griff firing) and this is ownership's "you were right" admission. They're gonna let him pick the coach this time (Giannis just needs to sign off).

- Kuzma trade was all Doc. Timing of the rumors going back to last deadline (February 2024) back this. Horst had other moves lined up to drop us below the 2nd apron (dumping Pat) or going after a legitimate upgrade/other distressed asset (LaVine and Jimmy rumors) but ownership (re: Haslam) backed Doc and split the difference (shedding salary and getting a younger player).

- Giannis values stability and loyalty. He likes Horst (he liked Hammond too FWIW). They have a relationship going back to when he first got here (under Hammond's staff). This was done to keep Giannis happy and indicate that there's a plan moving forward, and that Horst can find the next Bud to bring back the winning culture.

Or.....we're ****.

This is the correct take. A likely scenario is ownership knows they screwed up on some things and/or Giannis has given his blessing to staying because he likes Horst.

The other possibility is that the owners like to meddle and Horst allows for it. But Edens isn't a dope. I'm thinking we clean sweep Doc out and rebuild around Giannis. We'll know our answers in the next 90 days.

[German Athens]

I may be in the minority, but I don’t think the Jrue trade was all that good of one.

We traded Bledsoe, a guy who had just put up 15/5/5 on solid efficiency, a super important bench player in hill, as well as 3 firsts and 2 swaps for Jrue.

Jrue is a bucks legend at this point, and Bledsoe’s value likely cratered after another miserable playoff performance, but we gave up a lot to get a guy who wasn’t leaps and bounds better than what we had.

We got over the hump, so I suppose it’s mostly a moot point.

[Dick Tate]

23 days too late for this headline.

[LittleRooster]

Optimist take check list:

- Horst wanted Atkinson on two separate occasions (summer of 2023 & January 2024 after Griff firing) and this is ownership's "you were right" admission. They're gonna let him pick the coach this time (Giannis just needs to sign off).

- Kuzma trade was all Doc. Timing of the rumors going back to last deadline (February 2024) back this. Horst had other moves lined up to drop us below the 2nd apron (dumping Pat) or going after a legitimate upgrade/other distressed asset (LaVine and Jimmy rumors) but ownership (re: Haslam) backed Doc and split the difference (shedding salary and getting a younger player).

- Giannis values stability and loyalty. He likes Horst (he liked Hammond too FWIW). They have a relationship going back to when he first got here (under Hammond's staff). This was done to keep Giannis happy and indicate that there's a plan moving forward, and that Horst can find the next Bud to bring back the winning culture.

Or.....we're ****.

This is the correct take. A likely scenario is ownership knows they screwed up on some things and/or Giannis has given his blessing to staying because he likes Horst.

The other possibility is that the owners like to meddle and Horst allows for it. But Edens isn't a dope. I'm thinking we clean sweep Doc out and rebuild around Giannis. We'll know our answers in the next 90 days.

I also agree with this. If it means Doc is gone, and he’s allowed to actually hire who he wants this time then great