2025 NBA PLAYOFFS West First Round: #4 Denver Nuggets vs #5 LA Clippers (Series tied 2-2)

[tsherkin]

Also, please. You think he's shooting enough? You're standing by that, huh? What if, he started shooting more and making some off script, tough shots. To the point it became problematic for the Clippers defense. Wouldn't they have to adjust things? Do you think that'd make things easier for his teammates to play better or harder? Do you think when a superstar is scorching the other team it helps or hurts his teammates confidence and energy? HURRR. Jordan's team struggles were against the 80s Celtics and bad boy pistons. This is a first round series against a team with a thin front court, who Denver had a better season then, and has been led by a semi declined James Harden, who this board brands as a loser and choker for not beating the mini dynasty warriors.

Yes, I think he's shooting enough. I don't think it'd make a difference if he shot more, because if his guys don't hit shots, Denver is losing anyway.

Nothing about him shooting would do anything for them. It isn't going to help.

Meantime, your characterization of LAC is horridly off. They don't have a thin frontcourt, Zubac is an extremely relevant individual, and they have two high-end perimeter guys beating the pants off of Denver's perimeter guys. The fact that it is in the first round is entirely irrelevant.

[madmaxmedia]

And he should be the reason! He's a 3x MVP in his peak. This is a first round series against an equal team. Their entire offense runs through him, with limited playmaking opportunities for others and minimal dribble penetration to put the defense in rotation. Thats not going to work in a playoff series vs an equal team.

Also, please. You think he's shooting enough? You're standing by that, huh? What if, he started shooting more and making some off script, tough shots. To the point it became problematic for the Clippers defense. Wouldn't they have to adjust things? Do you think that'd make things easier for his teammates to play better or harder? Do you think when a superstar is scorching the other team it helps or hurts his teammates confidence and energy? HURRR. Jordan's team struggles were against the 80s Celtics and bad boy pistons. This is a first round series against a team with a thin front court, who Denver had a better season then, and has been led by a semi declined James Harden, who this board brands as a loser and choker for not beating the mini dynasty warriors.

Why would the defence change? Clippers are more than happy for Jokic to keep shooting.

I'd argue the opposite, they're happy with him to continue passing to his teammates. They can live with his 10apg. Nobody else on Denver gets much of an opportunity create plays with their playstyle through Jokic at the top of key. Also how do you know that. If Jokic starts to go off scoring, you don't think the Clippers would adjust their defense? He hasn't attempted to do that, so I'm not sure how'd you know it? They're going to have to change something though.

I think you're both not wrong, in different ways. Jokic is working harder for his shots than he normally has to, that's what Zu does as a big C. Jokic could take more shots and might need to, but then there's going to be more contested 3's, double teams in the paint, etc. as the Clippers as a whole are playing good defense and helping Zu when needed. OTOH Jokic can play more efficiently, look to facilitate better scoring opportunities for his teammates, but last night that was like trying to squeeze water out of a rock. Jokic and Murray looked like they were on their own islands, you can only do so much against a really energized team at home with great depth and defense.

I imagine the next game will be a lot closer, every game is different. But last night would have required one of those 45/20/20 type games from Jokic for them to win. He'd literally have to both score a lot more, and single-handedly create easy buckets for his teammates. It's his usage % overall (and production off his usage) that would have needed to been off the charts.

[TheAlchemist]

Denver definitely has to trade MPJ , Aaron Gordon, and see if they can get an upgrade on Murray.

I can see them get some good solid role players and starters for Gordon / MPJ.

With Jokic you need defensive ability and the ability to hit the 3 easily.

[kazyv]

Why would the defence change? Clippers are more than happy for Jokic to keep shooting.

I'd argue the opposite, they're happy with him to continue passing to his teammates. They can live with his 10apg. Nobody else on Denver gets much of an opportunity create plays with their playstyle through Jokic at the top of key. Also how do you know that. If Jokic starts to go off scoring, you don't think the Clippers would adjust their defense? He hasn't attempted to do that, so I'm not sure how'd you know it? They're going to have to change something though.

I think you're both not wrong, in different ways. Jokic is working harder for his shots than he normally has to, that's what Zu does as a big C. Jokic could take more shots and might need to, but then there's going to be more contested 3's, double teams in the paint, etc. as the Clippers as a whole are playing good defense and helping Zu when needed. OTOH Jokic can play more efficiently, look to facilitate better scoring opportunities for his teammates, but last night that was like trying to squeeze water out of a rock. Jokic and Murray looked like they were on their own islands, you can only do so much against a really energized team at home with great depth and defense.

I imagine the next game will be a lot closer, every game is different. But last night would have required one of those 45/20/20 type games from Jokic for them to win. He'd literally have to both score a lot more, and single-handedly create easy buckets for his teammates.

Yeah, it's quite clear that Jokic has to do a Dirk impression, do more on offense and force the issue a lot more. I'd say he should be doing less on defense though. If Batum is in, just play DeAndre Jordan along with Jokic. Stick DJ on Zubac and have Jokic chill in the corner on Batum.

[2weekswithpay]

Read on Twitter

Interesting stats for those that said Jokic is being doubled and swarmed all game. I imagine he’s usually doubled a lot more than 10-15%? Or is the error in what is considered a double team maybe?

This matches what I saw, but also a bit deceiving if framed the wrong way. Just an example, the Clippers started switching Zubac on Murray a bit more in this game. This takes away the Jokic pick and pop, and Murray has to be the one to score. When Jokic tries to take advantage of a smaller defender, he sees multiple defenders. Dunn does a great job of fronting him, and Harden is there to help if Braun tries to lob it. Gordon flashes to the middle but can't make the shot. The Clippers don't double when Zubac is guarding him, but Jokic still gets a ridiculous amount of the defense's attention. Sometimes it's a hard double, and sometimes it's players being positioned in a way to discourage him from scoring.

[f4p]

Jokic has a 28 PER, a 62 TS%, a 16.1 BPM and is +48 on/off. I don't think he's dominated at typical jokic levels but if this is him being substandard, then that tells you what the standard has been.

[Mamba Mentality]

Nuggets might be down MPJ and Westbrook, and Gordon is still struggling with that calf injury. This series is a wrap.

[2weekswithpay]

Jokic wants to be aggressive, and the Clippers make things as difficult as possible. The Clippers have Simmons pressuring him down the court. DJJ is there to show help and slow him down from the corner. Simmons swipes at the ball with his left, and Jokic can't turn the other way because Batum is there to double the moment Jokic picks up his dribble.

[cjx]

The series has officially begun for the Mighty Nuggets, Fam

Mile High Might

1-2 now, 4-2 at the end, Nuggets Advance

Let's Ride to Victory !!

[OkcSinceSGA]

Jokic has a 28 PER, a 62 TS%, a 16.1 BPM and is +48 on/off. I don't think he's dominated at typical jokic levels but if this is him being substandard, then that tells you what the standard has been.

When you’re historically this elite, I think you have to look at it for their own standard. Not vs league average or something. Jokic still does insane damage to a defense but for large portions of the 3 games he’s felt “contained” somewhat. The averages take the entire game, but in actuality 1-2 quarters of containing Jokic can swing the game so much, or in game 3 build a lead so big that you don’t recover.

For example in the first quarter last night he was basically Jason Kidd with no defense. He had like 6 assists but wasn’t even looking at the basket. For the defense that’s a win.

[Bergmaniac]

It was so clear to me that the Clippers should have been considered big favourites in this series, the Nuggets have no bench and mediocre defence, Jokic can't do everything. Their bench players couldn't even score in garbage time. Pickett had an incredible 13.6 ORTG in 11 minutes in the last game, this basically never happens. Denver's only offense in the non-Jokic minutes is Murray shooting very tough shots. When he sits too they just have no clue whatsover what to do on offense against a playoff defence. And with AG and Porter not being fully healthy I just don't see a way back for them in this series.

[darkse1d]

Jokic wants to be aggressive, and the Clippers make things as difficult as possible. The Clippers have Simmons pressuring him down the court. DJJ is there to show help and slow him down from the corner. Simmons swipes at the ball with his left, and Jokic can't turn the other way because Batum is there to double the moment Jokic picks up his dribble.

This just screams poor coaching and poor IQ from the nuggets players. First of all you have two non shooters pg on the court and yet none of them are helping jokic by asking for the ball to set up the offense. If you have two pgs on the court there's no need to let jokic go the length of the court

Second you have mpj completely oblivious to what's going on. He's letting jokic getting bodied from front court instead of getting in Simmons way. Set a screen, do something. Instead he camps up to the 3pt line.

Third jokic needs to be a lot smarter. He's spending so much energy to bring up the ball from one side of the court to the other. It's inefficient offense. It's walking right into the trap that Ty lue has set

Lastly, the nuggets poor spacing. Freeze the clip at the 8 second mark. 4 clippers in the paint to guard jokic . Everyone else is standing doing nothing . Powell is sticking to mpj like glue , everyone else is focused on jokic . Just awful awful coaching that has no recognition of what's going on.

[Chuck Everett]

Jokic wants to be aggressive, and the Clippers make things as difficult as possible. The Clippers have Simmons pressuring him down the court. DJJ is there to show help and slow him down from the corner. Simmons swipes at the ball with his left, and Jokic can't turn the other way because Batum is there to double the moment Jokic picks up his dribble.

This just screams poor coaching and poor IQ from the nuggets players. First of all you have two non shooters pg on the court and yet none of them are helping jokic by asking for the ball to set up the offense. If you have two pgs on the court there's no need to let jokic go the length of the court

Second you have mpj completely oblivious to what's going on. He's letting jokic getting bodied from front court instead of getting in Simmons way. Set a screen, do something. Instead he camps up to the 3pt line.

Third jokic needs to be a lot smarter. He's spending so much energy to bring up the ball from one side of the court to the other. It's inefficient offense. It's walking right into the trap that Ty lue has set

Lastly, the nuggets poor spacing. Freeze the clip at the 8 second mark. 4 clippers in the paint to guard jokic . Everyone else is standing doing nothing . Powell is sticking to mpj like glue , everyone else is focused on jokic . Just awful awful coaching that has no recognition of what's going on.

Then maybe the best option against the Clippers is to not have Jokic bring the ball up every possession and play more like a big to get Zubac in foul trouble. Take him to the block, while the guards look for him and see if he can get to the free throw line. Now, you may say that the Nuggets don't play that way typically and I would agree. However, maybe that is an adjustment that needs to be made. Jokic being a play finisher rather than a play initiator.

And before someone says that would hurt the Nuggets, what do they have to lose by trying it? Doing what they're currently doing is going to lose them the series anyway.

[G R E Y]

Simmons is living the dream.

Honestly, he's exceeded my expectations for him when he signed. I expected him to a solid spot handler that would provide some okay effort on defense.

Just wish Lue would avoid having any minutes on the court without Harden or Ben. The squad always needs a ball handler on the floor, and can't have Norm, Bogi or Kawhi be the primary at any point

That's part of my point - they were once so much higher, a guy thought to build a team around, and now bare minimum gets nods and raised eyebrows. He wanted Cali, he got it, and now gets by with minimal expectations.

[darkse1d]

Jokic wants to be aggressive, and the Clippers make things as difficult as possible. The Clippers have Simmons pressuring him down the court. DJJ is there to show help and slow him down from the corner. Simmons swipes at the ball with his left, and Jokic can't turn the other way because Batum is there to double the moment Jokic picks up his dribble.

This just screams poor coaching and poor IQ from the nuggets players. First of all you have two non shooters pg on the court and yet none of them are helping jokic by asking for the ball to set up the offense. If you have two pgs on the court there's no need to let jokic go the length of the court

Second you have mpj completely oblivious to what's going on. He's letting jokic getting bodied from front court instead of getting in Simmons way. Set a screen, do something. Instead he camps up to the 3pt line.

Third jokic needs to be a lot smarter. He's spending so much energy to bring up the ball from one side of the court to the other. It's inefficient offense. It's walking right into the trap that Ty lue has set

Lastly, the nuggets poor spacing. Freeze the clip at the 8 second mark. 4 clippers in the paint to guard jokic . Everyone else is standing doing nothing . Powell is sticking to mpj like glue , everyone else is focused on jokic . Just awful awful coaching that has no recognition of what's going on.

Then maybe the best option against the Clippers is to not have Jokic bring the ball up every possession and play more like a big to get Zubac in foul trouble. Take him to the block, while the guards look for him and see if he can get to the free throw line. Now, you may say that the Nuggets don't play that way typically and I would agree. However, maybe that is an adjustment that needs to be made. Jokic being a play finisher rather than a play initiator.

And before someone says that would hurt the Nuggets, what do they have to lose by trying it? Doing what they're currently doing is going to lose them the series anyway.

Won't work because the clippers will keep packing the paint and are content with nuggets non shooters bricking 3s.

[falcolombardi]

Simmons is living the dream.

Honestly, he's exceeded my expectations for him when he signed. I expected him to a solid spot handler that would provide some okay effort on defense.

Just wish Lue would avoid having any minutes on the court without Harden or Ben. The squad always needs a ball handler on the floor, and can't have Norm, Bogi or Kawhi be the primary at any point

That's part of my point - they were once so much higher, a guy thought to build a team around, and now bare minimum gets nods and raised eyebrows. He wanted Cali, he got it, and now gets by with minimal expectations.

I joked before that he went for lebron talks into bronny talks in the span of 4 years post atlanta series and is barely a exxageration

[Chuck Everett]

Then maybe the best option against the Clippers is to not have Jokic bring the ball up every possession and play more like a big to get Zubac in foul trouble. Take him to the block, while the guards look for him and see if he can get to the free throw line. Now, you may say that the Nuggets don't play that way typically and I would agree. However, maybe that is an adjustment that needs to be made. Jokic being a play finisher rather than a play initiator.

And before someone says that would hurt the Nuggets, what do they have to lose by trying it? Doing what they're currently doing is going to lose them the series anyway.

Won't work because the clippers will keep packing the paint and are content with nuggets non shooters bricking 3s.

So basically don't try anything different?

[trickshot]

Read on Twitter

Interesting stats for those that said Jokic is being doubled and swarmed all game. I imagine he’s usually doubled a lot more than 10-15%? Or is the error in what is considered a double team maybe?

There was an exact stat like this in 2020 how much better Zu matched up against him but Doc Rivers kept sending Montrez Harrell to get cooked and blow a 3-1 lead.

[darkse1d]

Read on Twitter

Interesting stats for those that said Jokic is being doubled and swarmed all game. I imagine he’s usually doubled a lot more than 10-15%? Or is the error in what is considered a double team maybe?

This matches what I saw, but also a bit deceiving if framed the wrong way. Just an example, the Clippers started switching Zubac on Murray a bit more in this game. This takes away the Jokic pick and pop, and Murray has to be the one to score. When Jokic tries to take advantage of a smaller defender, he sees multiple defenders. Dunn does a great job of fronting him, and Harden is there to help if Braun tries to lob it. Gordon flashes to the middle but can't make the shot. The Clippers don't double when Zubac is guarding him, but Jokic still gets a ridiculous amount of the defense's attention. Sometimes it's a hard double, and sometimes it's players being positioned in a way to discourage him from scoring.

The problem here is Murray deflating the ball by overdribbling and taking a tough shot over a 7-footer. The correct adjustment is to have Braun come up to the top of 3 point line and jokic to go to the paint opposite of zubac and work from there.

Murray swings to Braun, Braun passes the ball to jokic deep inside the paint. This is what Ty Lue did with zubac and got him open looks.

The nuggets need to move offensively and keep swinging the ball. Of course that won't work overnight. A new system needs to be implemented in the off season to reduce the reliance on jokic to do everything

[NO-KG-AI]

Also, please. You think he's shooting enough? You're standing by that, huh? What if, he started shooting more and making some off script, tough shots. To the point it became problematic for the Clippers defense. Wouldn't they have to adjust things? Do you think that'd make things easier for his teammates to play better or harder? Do you think when a superstar is scorching the other team it helps or hurts his teammates confidence and energy? HURRR. Jordan's team struggles were against the 80s Celtics and bad boy pistons. This is a first round series against a team with a thin front court, who Denver had a better season then, and has been led by a semi declined James Harden, who this board brands as a loser and choker for not beating the mini dynasty warriors.

Yes, I think he's shooting enough. I don't think it'd make a difference if he shot more, because if his guys don't hit shots, Denver is losing anyway.

Nothing about him shooting would do anything for them. It isn't going to help.

Meantime, your characterization of LAC is horridly off. They don't have a thin frontcourt, Zubac is an extremely relevant individual, and they have two high-end perimeter guys beating the pants off of Denver's perimeter guys. The fact that it is in the first round is entirely irrelevant.

Bro he’s just saying words to get to some Harden>Jokic conclusion. All time or now, or both. Im not sure lol