Can we stop pretending like old school NBA playoff games are more physical than they are now?

[liquidswords]

The NBA is fluff now compared to 20-30 years ago. You breathe on a player half the time and fouls are called whereas they played through that crap back in the day.

Are you watching these playoffs at all???? The physicality is so noticeable unless you are a nostalgic glazer.

Also, do we need to post that one video where Jordan was brushed off the dribble like 10 times and fouls were called every single time?

Yes, I watched the playoff games thus far while sure there is a great deal of physical play like in the past, but also there are a ton of fouls called where there either was no foul or the player was only breathed upon. It is getting ridiculous at times how bad the officials call fouls when there is barely contact. That is not physical gameplay to me. That stops the momentum of the game in my opinion.

Naturally, Playoff basketball is always more physical than regular season, but the amount of foul calls when no call was needed is ridiculous. Let the damn players play. Especially, I have seen Flagrant Fouls called when players were barely touched! That isn't physical gameplay to me.

I take it you didn't witness first hand basketball in the 90's, only youtube videos. I am all about the modern NBA as I enjoy it moreso in most aspects, but not when it comes to the physicality, flopping and ref favoritism to all star players.

The difference between now and back then is much less flopping, much less crying about fouls when not fouled with players playing Through contact in the past.

So I wouldn't lump physicality with flagrant fouls. Flagrant fouls have been cleaned up. You aren't allowed to hit people in the head anymore because of all the concussion learnings - we've gotten smarter. We shouldn't glaze over the violent flagrant fouls from back in the day

I actually grew up watching 90's and 00's basketball. Allen Iverson is my favorite all-time player. I'm just not letting nostalgia ruin my perspective like a lot of other people from my generation. There were tons of floppers back in the day (Ginobili, Parker, Divac, just off the top of my head right now.) Also, every star player complained relentlessly in the 90's and 00's. I'm not sure why its less tolerated now. I will say the biggest problem I have with today's stars is that no one really wants to take the reigns of the league the way Kobe, AI, Jordan, peak Lebron did.

[Ainosterhaspie]

So, it’s more likely that let’s say Reggie Miller is imagining what he lived through compared to what he currently covers? That seems reasonable.

We can watch video of Miller's games and we can watch video of modern games. We don't have to rely on his memories.

I don't think you've watched very many games from 30 years ago. I think you're exaggerating for effect. I'm trying to think of a term for that. How about flopping? Is that it? You watched the Grizz and Thunder hoist 80 threes in between Brunson and Jokic flopping up and down the floor last night and thought to yourself, the physicality is off the charts.

I regularly watch games from the 80s and 90s, in part because of discussions like this since I don't want to rely on my and others' 30 year old memory. Every game I watch reinforces my impression that the physicality levels of those eras are massively exaggerated and based on compilations of plays spanning two decades which bear no resemblance to the bulk of the minutes played even involving the teams with the biggest reputations for physicality.

They were actually just playing basketball. People get far more emotional charge from the rare heated moments and that is what sticks in memory and gets embelished over time, while the play 99% of the time where it's just regular basketball is forgotten.

The Rambis clothesline almost single handedly carries the entire 80s reputation for physicality, but for some reason the Barrea one in the 2010s is forgotten.

Earlier in this thread, I went over video previously posted in this thread of the Pistons Murdering Jordan (the words used in the video title) and compared it to one of Luka in the most recent game. Jordan was untouched on most of the plays and none of the plays shown were more physical than what you see right now.

By contrast Luka was being pushed, held and bodied almost every play and had half as many plays where he was untouched. No cherry picking, just grabbing the first video of highlights from the most recent game and comparing it to one the other side themselves posted as an exemplar of the prior era.

[f4p]

Not the 80s, but this is kareem guarding wilt back in the day. I would call this soft defense, but that would imply it was defense. This is like anti-defense compared to what we see today.

https://youtube.com/shorts/4eX18V-_KX8?si=o8Rr3tCc0y6udu9s

[f4p]

1984 to 1993 was the most efficient stretch in NBA history until the recent few years. In part because there was very little physicality. The late 90s and early 00s were quite inefficient because there was quite a bit of physicality. No one can really watch an 80s game and think the play to play physicality was as high as today when defenses are barely moving 15 feet from the basket and not engaging offensive players until they dribble to 17 or 18 feet.

[Ainosterhaspie]

1984 to 1993 was the most efficient stretch in NBA history until the recent few years. In part because there was very little physicality. The late 90s and early 00s were quite inefficient because there was quite a bit of physicality. No one can really watch an 80s game and think the play to play physicality was as high as today when defenses are barely moving 15 feet from the basket and not engaging offensive players until they dribble to 17 or 18 feet.

The inefficiency of the late 90s and early 00s was more about bad offensive tactics than high levels of physicality. That isn't to say it wasn't a period with significant physicality, but the trend of not guarding the perimeter all that heavily still held.

Look at these two late game out of bounds plays from 04 and 24. I see more grabbing/holding in the 24 play and that's a regular season games not a finals game like the 04 clip.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

A good example of tactical change is at 2:10 in the clip below. Today on that hand-off, teams are going to shoot a three, Kobe steps in for a long two instead. The defense didn't take the three away and they weren't using physicality to stop him.

Watch on YouTube

I am also struck in watching the above video by how much of the play isn't showing high levels of physicality. Detroit is successful because of good team defensive positioning and tactics. It's not about handchecking and violence.

[RJT2k]

The playoff games every year are so physical. I actually don't like the "let them play" mindset because I think the game should be called consistently during the season and postseason.

There's simply more physicality now a days. You see guys getting hip checked and bodies up 5 feet outside the 3 point line. Back in the day defenders would say off players if they were even close to the 3 point line. There's just more handchecking and contact in the playoffs now a days.

I'm sure I'll get some "hurr durr Bad Boys Pistons, therefore all games back in the day were MMA matches" from some dudes that were 5 years old when the Bad Boy Pistons played. That's one team over a span of 2 years. And they were known for hard fouls. It still wasn't as consistently physical as it is now. We also saw a leg lock on Luka and a karate chop to LeBron's face get no called and then a common foul, respectively.

Bottom line, playoff games are as physical as ever. I think it's too physical, which makes it so drastically different than the regular season. Call the games consistently.

Pistons, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Jazz were far more physical in the late 80s - 90s than teams could even try to be now. It's just a different game.

[ScrantonBulls]

The playoff games every year are so physical. I actually don't like the "let them play" mindset because I think the game should be called consistently during the season and postseason.

There's simply more physicality now a days. You see guys getting hip checked and bodies up 5 feet outside the 3 point line. Back in the day defenders would say off players if they were even close to the 3 point line. There's just more handchecking and contact in the playoffs now a days.

I'm sure I'll get some "hurr durr Bad Boys Pistons, therefore all games back in the day were MMA matches" from some dudes that were 5 years old when the Bad Boy Pistons played. That's one team over a span of 2 years. And they were known for hard fouls. It still wasn't as consistently physical as it is now. We also saw a leg lock on Luka and a karate chop to LeBron's face get no called and then a common foul, respectively.

Bottom line, playoff games are as physical as ever. I think it's too physical, which makes it so drastically different than the regular season. Call the games consistently.

Pistons, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Jazz were far more physical in the late 80s - 90s than teams could even try to be now. It's just a different game.

Well gosh, it MUST be true if you say so.

[HotelVitale]

In your case the answer is a resounding YES

I'm just trying to imagine a game with Hakeem, Malone, Eaton, and Sampson is going to be an example of a low physicality playoff game...i haven't watched it but there's just zero chances that was a sherry picked game.

I was watching it a second ago and it is interesting to watch how good those guys are at protecting the rim in the more crowded half court (and getting orebs on the other end, which was a much more important part of the game back then). But they're just not doing it very 'physically.' They're following the old advice of keeping the guards at arm's length and away from your body to avoid fouling. Mirroring the guards and timing their contest.

But yeah it is harder to get up some shots in the lane just because there's less space and less of a runaway to avoid those super long shotblockers.

Interesting thing--the league average numbers of blocks per game has stayed remarkably consistent from the 70s to now. It's nearly always between 4.6 and 5.5 per game, every single year from 1972 (first year bball ref has #s) and today. That still probably means there were a little more blocks per possession in the slower eras (there were 5.2 in the slowest year 2002 vs 4.9 in the fastest recent year 2022), but it's pretty interesting fact. I would've guessed that it varied quite a bit more than that.

[HotelVitale]

The playoff games every year are so physical. I actually don't like the "let them play" mindset because I think the game should be called consistently during the season and postseason.

There's simply more physicality now a days. You see guys getting hip checked and bodies up 5 feet outside the 3 point line. Back in the day defenders would say off players if they were even close to the 3 point line. There's just more handchecking and contact in the playoffs now a days.

I'm sure I'll get some "hurr durr Bad Boys Pistons, therefore all games back in the day were MMA matches" from some dudes that were 5 years old when the Bad Boy Pistons played. That's one team over a span of 2 years. And they were known for hard fouls. It still wasn't as consistently physical as it is now. We also saw a leg lock on Luka and a karate chop to LeBron's face get no called and then a common foul, respectively.

Bottom line, playoff games are as physical as ever. I think it's too physical, which makes it so drastically different than the regular season. Call the games consistently.

Pistons, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Jazz were far more physical in the late 80s - 90s than teams could even try to be now. It's just a different game.

Well gosh, it MUST be true if you say so.

Get ready for the royal rumble!!!

Watch on YouTube

[elchengue20]

You had more hard fouls in the past, but the game is much more intense and taxing nowadays. It's not even close.

Players have to cover much more ground because of spacing offense, at a higher speed and intensity, set more picks, cuts, rotate on defense, contest drives at the rim, etc, etc.

The modern game is waaay more dynamic, there is a reason it's called the "pace and space" era.

[TheGOATWill]

We can watch video of Miller's games and we can watch video of modern games. We don't have to rely on his memories.

Yeah, you'd think in the Internet age that people would stop taking people's claims for granted and check out the evidence directly, since it's so easy to obtain. But most don't.

By this logic it’s unreliable to ask a mother how painful childbirth is. We’re better off entrusting that assessment to a 20 year old man with an internet connection and tons of spare time.

[tamaraw08]

Are you watching these playoffs at all???? The physicality is so noticeable unless you are a nostalgic glazer.

Also, do we need to post that one video where Jordan was brushed off the dribble like 10 times and fouls were called every single time?

Yes, I watched the playoff games thus far while sure there is a great deal of physical play like in the past, but also there are a ton of fouls called where there either was no foul or the player was only breathed upon. It is getting ridiculous at times how bad the officials call fouls when there is barely contact. That is not physical gameplay to me. That stops the momentum of the game in my opinion.

Naturally, Playoff basketball is always more physical than regular season, but the amount of foul calls when no call was needed is ridiculous. Let the damn players play. Especially, I have seen Flagrant Fouls called when players were barely touched! That isn't physical gameplay to me.

I take it you didn't witness first hand basketball in the 90's, only youtube videos. I am all about the modern NBA as I enjoy it moreso in most aspects, but not when it comes to the physicality, flopping and ref favoritism to all star players.

The difference between now and back then is much less flopping, much less crying about fouls when not fouled with players playing Through contact in the past.

So I wouldn't lump physicality with flagrant fouls. Flagrant fouls have been cleaned up. You aren't allowed to hit people in the head anymore because of all the concussion learnings - we've gotten smarter. We shouldn't glaze over the violent flagrant fouls from back in the day

I actually grew up watching 90's and 00's basketball. Allen Iverson is my favorite all-time player. I'm just not letting nostalgia ruin my perspective like a lot of other people from my generation. There were tons of floppers back in the day (Ginobili, Parker, Divac, just off the top of my head right now.) Also, every star player complained relentlessly in the 90's and 00's. I'm not sure why its less tolerated now. I will say the biggest problem I have with today's stars is that no one really wants to take the reigns of the league the way Kobe, AI, Jordan, peak Lebron did.

Pretty subjective take, don't you think? Are you sure guys like Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Shai, Ant Edwards and even Tatum don't "want to" take the reigns of the league? Or most of them are foreigners and not fully embraced by the majority of the media. ESPN tried hard to promote Ant but Edwards got embarrased by Luka last playoffs and kinda lost his appeal... for now.

[f4p]

Pistons, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Jazz were far more physical in the late 80s - 90s than teams could even try to be now. It's just a different game.

Well gosh, it MUST be true if you say so.

Get ready for the royal rumble!!!

Watch on YouTube

i watched from the 15:48 to 17:00 mark. other than someone bumping parish as he jogged down the court, parish lightly brushing malone's arm as malone went for position and someone sort of swiping at the ball when bird posted up, literally no one has touched each other yet. like not even on rebounds.

[Handlez]

Why would we lie to ourselves?

Players today flop so bad they literally had to make a rule against flopping.

Imagine that for a second...

Players acting like they were getting fouled was so prevalent and egregious that the league had to step in and start fining players.

This is the softest the league has ever been.

[ScrantonBulls]

Well gosh, it MUST be true if you say so.

Get ready for the royal rumble!!!

Watch on YouTube

i watched from the 15:48 to 17:00 mark. other than someone bumping parish as he jogged down the court, parish lightly brushing malone's arm as malone went for position and someone sort of swiping at the ball when bird posted up, literally no one has touched each other yet. like not even on rebounds.

One can't simply know how tough the league was by watching old games on YouTube. You had to BE THERE. You had to FEEL IT. You had to be alive and experience the game in real time to know the slugfest that was 80s and 90s NBA.

[MavsDirk41]

The "it used to be so much more physical" side is so terrified of old video, they immediately default to "cherry-picked" before even watching.

When are you gonna show proof that todays nba is more physical than 80, 90, and 00 nba? Is it gonna be this year that your gonna provide this? Just curious…

[MavsDirk41]

The NBA is fluff now compared to 20-30 years ago. You breathe on a player half the time and fouls are called whereas they played through that crap back in the day.

Are you watching these playoffs at all???? The physicality is so noticeable unless you are a nostalgic glazer.

Also, do we need to post that one video where Jordan was brushed off the dribble like 10 times and fouls were called every single time?

The other night i watched a game and replay showed the offensive player wasnt even touched by the defender….but the physicality of todays nba is brutal like no other era

[MavsDirk41]

We can watch video of Miller's games and we can watch video of modern games. We don't have to rely on his memories.

I don't think you've watched very many games from 30 years ago. I think you're exaggerating for effect. I'm trying to think of a term for that. How about flopping? Is that it? You watched the Grizz and Thunder hoist 80 threes in between Brunson and Jokic flopping up and down the floor last night and thought to yourself, the physicality is off the charts.

I regularly watch games from the 80s and 90s, in part because of discussions like this since I don't want to rely on my and others' 30 year old memory. Every game I watch reinforces my impression that the physicality levels of those eras are massively exaggerated and based on compilations of plays spanning two decades which bear no resemblance to the bulk of the minutes played even involving the teams with the biggest reputations for physicality.

They were actually just playing basketball. People get far more emotional charge from the rare heated moments and that is what sticks in memory and gets embelished over time, while the play 99% of the time where it's just regular basketball is forgotten.

The Rambis clothesline almost single handedly carries the entire 80s reputation for physicality, but for some reason the Barrea one in the 2010s is forgotten.

Earlier in this thread, I went over video previously posted in this thread of the Pistons Murdering Jordan (the words used in the video title) and compared it to one of Luka in the most recent game. Jordan was untouched on most of the plays and none of the plays shown were more physical than what you see right now.

By contrast Luka was being pushed, held and bodied almost every play and had half as many plays where he was untouched. No cherry picking, just grabbing the first video of highlights from the most recent game and comparing it to one the other side themselves posted as an exemplar of the prior era.

I watched Luka flop and complain for years just stop

[LakerLegend]

Watch on YouTube

[bledredwine]

Why would we lie to ourselves?

Players today flop so bad they literally had to make a rule against flopping.

Imagine that for a second...

Players acting like they were getting fouled was so prevalent and egregious that the league had to step in and start fining players.

This is the softest the league has ever been.

Yep. It’s funny how posters can’t even state the most obvious things here out of insecurity. Threads like this show me that you can’t care about what a lot of this forum has to say because they apparently believe in fairy tales.