James Harden's defense

[mynameKIM]

Really good post Defense
Great at playing passing lane and deflecting ball away
Below average perimeter D
Horrendously bad offball defense. Frequently loses his man due to ball watching

[og15]

Why do people keep quoting post up defense like that actually matters?How many guards actually post up and how often?You just do it to make him look good.Same thing with that crap stat "deflections".

Had a good laugh with the first reply too.Harden's an excellent defender that chooses to take possessions off.Yeah and i am actually better at basketball than Harden,i just choose not to show it.

Rockets switch a lot, it isn't post defense vs guards, but against bigs. Harden was guarding the post in 1/5 defensive possessions from the numbers listed, that's far from irrelevant.

Deflections are fine. Active hands are good, someone keeping their hands down or inactive is not a good thing on defense.

Harden is average to below average on defense. It is true that his weaker perimeter defense is not good, but he does some other things well, including the mentioned post-defense and deflections and steals. The lapses and the lazy moments are what keep him down though, even if you aren't super quick, more effort and focus helps.

[Fresh_Prince12]

You guys realize that guards get away with murder in the post right. That’s one reason why the post game is diminishing.

[freethedevil]

As the synergy stats show, he can be a very good or at least neutral individual defender, but shows no real defensive awareness or care from a team defense standpoint and that’s why his team’s defense is usually worse with him on court although in 2017 and 2018, the Rockets were much better defensively with him on court in the playoffs.

Take a look at how he did guarding KD, Curry, and Klay in last year’s playoffs.https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/matchups/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&Matchup=Defense

KD—Harden defended him on 88 total possessions, KD shot 8/24, 24 total points, 45% TS (nba.com gives the number of FTs made but not attempted—dig around and figure it out, but this is assuming he made all 6 FTs)

Curry—Harden defended him on 54 total possessions, Curry shot 4/19, 13 total points, 31.3% TS

His is amazing individual defense on two of the most difficult players to defend in NBA history. Curry shot 9% from three with Harden defending him.

Meanwhile, he didn’t do as against Klay, but still Klay scored only 19 of his total 115 points in the series directly against Harden.

Klay—Harden defended him on 52 total possessions, Klay shot 8/11, 19 total points, 86.4% TS.


BUT, the problem was when he missed assignments, switched late, rotated later, ball watched, etc., and even with this great individual defense, the Rockets were worse defensively with him on court than off vs, the Warriors and in the playoffs as a whole.

Synergy stats show what happens when harden is involved, however his rate of involvement is directly tied to the fact that he isnt a "very good" or even "nuetral" defender:
https://www.bball-index.com/18-pipm/

He's a -1.5 in dpipm and literally any metric will tell you he makes the rockets defense worse. He's used in a way where he can't be exposed so much, but doing this directly takes away from the rest of his team's defense.Compare this to the likes of curry, lebron, kawhi, durant, who don't hurt, and typically improve their defenses, even if it's marginally.

If you're used near exclusively on the post, you probably aren't good.

[OkcSinceSGA]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

I wanted to see what you guys observe with Harden’s defense. I may sound crazy, but I actually think he’s been GOOD this season defensively at age 35. His reputation, even in my eyes was he can’t defend.

Yet not only is NOT a liability teams can attack, he’s incredibly good at two things. Post up defense, and steals on drives. Perimeter wise he can occasionally be lazy and ball watch open 3s… but overall he’s trying very hard in JVG’s system to rotate.

Back to his strengths though…. When bigs switch onto him they think he can be backed down but I feel like most of the time that leads to a stop or turnover. Did you know Harden was actually a pretty good defender? 35 year old Harden becoming a very positive defender wasn’t in the cards I bet. Late career Jason Kidd defense arch.

[LarsV8]

He was never a bad defender, he was a lazy defender, or maybe its better to say a "reserved defender", and it's hard to blame him really for that, because it has been incredibly effective mix for a very long time. His prime in terms of length has got to be among the best ever, which is remarkable for a man in his physical shape.

It's been like 15 years of high usage offense, just absolutely brilliant offense. Relatively injury free in that span. Basically a walking top ten offensive system in and of himself, year in, year out. He will get you too the playoffs every year.

The tradeoff? I have to believe in his mind, the effort on defense just wasn't justifiable. All the guys who went all out, all the time, typically had major injuries and short careers (the Thibs special). He was still gonna make the playoffs.

[Iwasawitness]

His reputation as a bad defender was always poorly applied to him. Harden is an excellent defender. He just takes possessions off.

“Excellent defender”

[Iwasawitness]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

I wanted to see what you guys observe with Harden’s defense. I may sound crazy, but I actually think he’s been GOOD this season defensively at age 35. His reputation, even in my eyes was he can’t defend.

Yet not only is NOT a liability teams can attack, he’s incredibly good at two things. Post up defense, and steals on drives. Perimeter wise he can occasionally be lazy and ball watch open 3s… but overall he’s trying very hard in JVG’s system to rotate.

Back to his strengths though…. When bigs switch onto him they think he can be backed down but I feel like most of the time that leads to a stop or turnover. Did you know Harden was actually a pretty good defender? 35 year old Harden becoming a very positive defender wasn’t in the cards I bet. Late career Jason Kidd defense arch.

If you’re openly admitting that you’re bumping old threads on purpose, then pretty soon thread making won’t be the only thing you’re banned from… just saying.

[NZB2323]

He’s a very good post defender and is better now that he actually tries as opposed to him not trying at all in all those old YouTube clips.

[OkcSinceSGA]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

I wanted to see what you guys observe with Harden’s defense. I may sound crazy, but I actually think he’s been GOOD this season defensively at age 35. His reputation, even in my eyes was he can’t defend.

Yet not only is NOT a liability teams can attack, he’s incredibly good at two things. Post up defense, and steals on drives. Perimeter wise he can occasionally be lazy and ball watch open 3s… but overall he’s trying very hard in JVG’s system to rotate.

Back to his strengths though…. When bigs switch onto him they think he can be backed down but I feel like most of the time that leads to a stop or turnover. Did you know Harden was actually a pretty good defender? 35 year old Harden becoming a very positive defender wasn’t in the cards I bet. Late career Jason Kidd defense arch.

If you’re openly admitting that you’re bumping old threads on purpose, then pretty soon thread making won’t be the only thing you’re banned from… just saying.

Huh? We bump threads constantly (everyone). Are you saying I should be banned for that? Very odd response.

[OkcSinceSGA]

His reputation as a bad defender was always poorly applied to him. Harden is an excellent defender. He just takes possessions off.

“Excellent defender”

I wouldn’t say excellent, but firmly “positive” or “good” this season is valid. For example, many would find it insane to say this but his defense THIS year is probably better than last 2 year PG defense was in LA. PG had random games or stretches of much better defense than Harden, but he also had REALLY bad floor level games compared to Harden.

[Iwasawitness]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

I wanted to see what you guys observe with Harden’s defense. I may sound crazy, but I actually think he’s been GOOD this season defensively at age 35. His reputation, even in my eyes was he can’t defend.

Yet not only is NOT a liability teams can attack, he’s incredibly good at two things. Post up defense, and steals on drives. Perimeter wise he can occasionally be lazy and ball watch open 3s… but overall he’s trying very hard in JVG’s system to rotate.

Back to his strengths though…. When bigs switch onto him they think he can be backed down but I feel like most of the time that leads to a stop or turnover. Did you know Harden was actually a pretty good defender? 35 year old Harden becoming a very positive defender wasn’t in the cards I bet. Late career Jason Kidd defense arch.

If you’re openly admitting that you’re bumping old threads on purpose, then pretty soon thread making won’t be the only thing you’re banned from… just saying.

Huh? We bump threads constantly (everyone). Are you saying I should be banned for that? Very odd response.

I’m not saying anyone “should” be banned for anything, but we aren’t supposed to be bumping old threads. It’s literally a rule lol

[G35]

You hear this all the time about James Harden's post defense and it is a result of how differently they referee post defense vs perimeter defense.

Before you could not put your hands in the back or push on the offensive player when going up for a shot but Harden does it all the time. What I see with Harden is similar to cornerbacks on WR's in the NFL. Get away with what you can and force the ref to make a call, most of the time they don't want to call a foul and disrupt the flow of the game.

They allow WAY more contact in the post compared to on the perimeter, that is to facilitate perimeter offense and we all know why that is. That is another reason why players are drifting more to shooting 3's is because they have more freedom of movement around the 3pt line compared to in the post you can get away with far more physical contact as a defender.

Look at Harden's post defense:

Watch on YouTube

@:25 you see that Harden has his left hand all in the offensive players back pushing him (this is what old school players mean when they talking putting a hand on your waist and restricting your movement)

@:29 Harden uses his right forearm to stop forward movement and puts his left hand to hold him around the waist. As the commentator says, Harden isn't trying to block the shot, he's just trying to control the post players movement and he does it with his hands. Why can't defenders do that on the perimeter?

@:45 he blatantly puts two hands on the post player and pushes him while they are dribbling. I don't know how he consistently gets away with this but I suspect it is because we do not get as much post play as in the past. That would have been a foul in the past.

@:57 Harden always tries to "push" on the post player when they go up for a shot. If the ref isn't going to call it you cannot blame Harden if he keeps doing it. I believe the refs swallow their whistle in the post.

Watch on YouTube

@:07 Harden is guarding Giannis which should be a clear mismatch but almost immediately Harden puts his hand on Giannis' hip. Harden is a stocky, strong guy so allowing him to do evens up the matchup where Giannis ends up taking a baseline fadeaway. This is entirely because of the refs call post play vs perimeter play. It is like two different sets of rules.

Big men are not allowed to use their bulk and strength to back down defenders like they use to. Shaq, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone, Mark Jackson would all be able to put their shoulder into the chest of the defender and back him down. Now that is not allowed but defenders can put their hands on post players and push and guide their movements.

That is why post play is nearly non-existent because of the rule interpretation changes......

[Blame Rasho]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

No, we don’t know and people don’t care until you do this. It just means you are an utter crap poster because it takes an unbelievable amount stupidity for that to happen. In fact, the boards are better off without you.

[Upperclass]

Harden has quick feet, long arms, quick hands and a strong frame.. he can defend when he wants.. he just doesnt seemed conditioned to play effective offense and defense

[OkcSinceSGA]

As you guys may know, I have been permanently banned from topic making months ago, so I’m forced to bump relevant topics to discuss.

No, we don’t know and people don’t care until you do this. It just means you are an utter crap poster because it takes an unbelievable amount stupidity for that to happen. In fact, the boards are better off without you.

I posted that because I didn’t want the people that are interested in the topic (you aren’t obviously) to just think I’m bumping stuff randomly. I'm just trying to discuss basketball, and have a good chat in the playoffs, and luckily most of the forum is here to do that. We still have to get along with our happy family of boomers like yourself, but that's what makes RealGM a unique place.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, have a good weekend.

[OkcSinceSGA]

You hear this all the time about James Harden's post defense and it is a result of how differently they referee post defense vs perimeter defense.

Before you could not put your hands in the back or push on the offensive player when going up for a shot but Harden does it all the time. What I see with Harden is similar to cornerbacks on WR's in the NFL. Get away with what you can and force the ref to make a call, most of the time they don't want to call a foul and disrupt the flow of the game.

They allow WAY more contact in the post compared to on the perimeter, that is to facilitate perimeter offense and we all know why that is. That is another reason why players are drifting more to shooting 3's is because they have more freedom of movement around the 3pt line compared to in the post you can get away with far more physical contact as a defender.

Look at Harden's post defense:

Watch on YouTube

@:25 you see that Harden has his left hand all in the offensive players back pushing him (this is what old school players mean when they talking putting a hand on your waist and restricting your movement)

@:29 Harden uses his right forearm to stop forward movement and puts his left hand to hold him around the waist. As the commentator says, Harden isn't trying to block the shot, he's just trying to control the post players movement and he does it with his hands. Why can't defenders do that on the perimeter?

@:45 he blatantly puts two hands on the post player and pushes him while they are dribbling. I don't know how he consistently gets away with this but I suspect it is because we do not get as much post play as in the past. That would have been a foul in the past.

@:57 Harden always tries to "push" on the post player when they go up for a shot. If the ref isn't going to call it you cannot blame Harden if he keeps doing it. I believe the refs swallow their whistle in the post.

Watch on YouTube

@:07 Harden is guarding Giannis which should be a clear mismatch but almost immediately Harden puts his hand on Giannis' hip. Harden is a stocky, strong guy so allowing him to do evens up the matchup where Giannis ends up taking a baseline fadeaway. This is entirely because of the refs call post play vs perimeter play. It is like two different sets of rules.

Big men are not allowed to use their bulk and strength to back down defenders like they use to. Shaq, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone, Mark Jackson would all be able to put their shoulder into the chest of the defender and back him down. Now that is not allowed but defenders can put their hands on post players and push and guide their movements.

That is why post play is nearly non-existent because of the rule interpretation changes......

That makes sense (the difference in contact in the post vs perimeter). But it's not JUST post defense contact as in being backed down. This year he's been extremely good at picking the pocket of driving players and players going into post moves. Just very timely turnovers forced.