Peaks only- Kobe Bryant vs Dirk Nowitzki

[ceoofkobefans]

Kobe and it's not particularly much of a debate for me. Bean is like a clear all time peak (like fringe top 10 range) and Dirk is more a clear MVP sub all time peak (like 20-25 range)

[One_and_Done]

Kobe really has no argument for a top 10 peak or prime.

[SlimShady83]

Kobe really has no argument for a top 10 peak or prime.

Come back to the general forum

[DorianRo]

Lets not disrespect Kobe like that. Dirk had one good run in 2011. The other time he made the final. he blew a 2-0 lead

[tsherkin]

Lets not disrespect Kobe like that. Dirk had one good run in 2011. The other time he made the final. he blew a 2-0 lead

Do you really want to talk about Finals performances in a conversation about Kobe?

[DorianRo]

Lets not disrespect Kobe like that. Dirk had one good run in 2011. The other time he made the final. he blew a 2-0 lead

Do you really want to talk about Finals performances in a conversation about Kobe?

Hes been the finals far more than Dirk and has more Finals MVP's than Dirk. so I mean.. In this regards. Why not. In terms of peaks, its no contest Kobe in the grand scheme..

[tsherkin]

Hes been the finals far more than Dirk and has more Finals MVP's than Dirk. so I mean.. In this regards. Why not. In terms of peaks, its no contest Kobe in the grand scheme..

He's had better teams than Dirk as well, so the number of trips to the Finals is of basically no relevance.

In terms of actual performance once in the Finals, which is what you inferred when you discussed Dirk's performance in 06, it really isn't a good look on Kobe as a point of comparison. It doesn't help Bryant's case at all.

[DorianRo]

Dirk couldn't even get to the finals with Nash. Kobe got there with Gasol. (Who while an all star was nowhere near as good as Nash was )

Kobe really didn't have that much help post Shaq leaving. I mean 05-07 was garbage for supporting help. The years the Lakers did win (09-10) really weren't littered with talent. The argument that Kobe had all this help is wrong post 2004. Cause he really didn't. Definitely nowhere near as say Lebron had. Kobe with less help took down wayyy better teams in the playoffs

And didn't dirk lose to the 8th seed in the first round? Its ridiculous to compare Dirk to Kobe. Dirk is great. But hes a crappy version of Larry Bird. Lets be real. Hes Bird-lite.

[tsherkin]

Dirk couldn't even get to the finals with Nash. Kobe got there with Gasol. (Who while an all star was nowhere near as good as Nash was )

Gasol was extremely good and quite underrated, plus they had quality spacing and Lamar Odom. Not really sure what you're after there. Kobe was obviously very good, but the team he had around him was generally better than what Dallas was putting around Dirk. Especially once they started putting odd squads with like Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker.

And again, that doesn't address the starting point, which was Finals performance. You wanted to crack on Dirk for 2006. And indeed, he struggled. It was the first of two consecutive playoff series where teams were able to put athletic guys who were around 6'7 on him, and get underneath him, which helped nullify his quickness advantage. And it wasn't until 08 that he started to really be able to adjust and take advantage of those mismatches.

But when you bring Kobe into the equation, you're looking at these performances:

2000: 15.6 ppg, 36.7% FG, 41.1% TS (PS lgav 51.7%)
2001: 24.6 ppg, 41.5% FG, 50.1% TS (PS lgav 51.1%)
2002: 26.8 ppg, 51.4% FG, 62.3% TS (PS lgav 51.4%)
2004: 22.6 ppg, 38.1% FG, 45.6% TS (PS lgav 50.0%)
2008: 25.7 ppg, 40.5% FG, 50.5% TS (PS lgav 53.2%)
2009: 32.4 ppg, 43.0% FG, 52.5% TS (PS lgav 54.4%)
2010: 28.6 ppg, 40.5% FG, 52.8% TS (PS lgav 54.3%)

So you have a couple of brutal meltdowns and some pretty bad shooting, and only one Finals series in 7 where he matched or exceeded postseason league average efficiency.

So when you're speaking as if the 06 Finals mean a lot in the context of a Dirk vs Kobe comparison, there isn't a lot of ground to stand on. Kobe struggled quite a lot in his Finals matchups as well, aside from that New Jersey series.

And didn't dirk lose to the 8th seed in the first round? Its ridiculous to compare Dirk to Kobe.

No, it's not ridiculous at all. One may come out on either side of the argument, and that's fine, but it is not at all a ridiculous comparison.

Dirk is great. But hes a crappy version of Larry Bird. Lets be real. Hes Bird-lite.

No, he isn't. He was actually a much better playoff scorer than Bird. Not as much a playmaker, but a more resilient scorer. Being tall, white and having a jumper doesn't make a guy a Bird analog. Dirk's a 25.3 ppg guy on 57.7% TS in the playoffs (no drop in efficiency from RS to PS). Bird was a 23.8 ppg guy on 55.1% TS with a 1.3% drop from RS to PS, and at least as many rough drop-offs.

[One_and_Done]

Dirk couldn't even get to the finals with Nash. Kobe got there with Gasol. (Who while an all star was nowhere near as good as Nash was )

Kobe really didn't have that much help post Shaq leaving. I mean 05-07 was garbage for supporting help. The years the Lakers did win (09-10) really weren't littered with talent. The argument that Kobe had all this help is wrong post 2004. Cause he really didn't. Definitely nowhere near as say Lebron had. Kobe with less help took down wayyy better teams in the playoffs

And didn't dirk lose to the 8th seed in the first round? Its ridiculous to compare Dirk to Kobe. Dirk is great. But hes a crappy version of Larry Bird. Lets be real. Hes Bird-lite.

Conversely you could say Dirk got to the finals twice without Nash, while Kobe failed to make the finals multiple times with prime Shaq.

Rather than misleadingly throwing out names like Nash and Shaq without discussing who was in their prime when, let's look at it this way. Kobe was on the title favourites at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11 once Pau joined, & 13). He has only a 50% (or less) success rate while on the favoured title team. I don't think Dirk was ever on the title favourite team, not once, yet he still has a title.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011. He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs and he was exposed by smaller SFs. Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

Dirk was more reliable scorer in playoffs than Kobe by most statistical measurements. Whether that makes him better is up to debate, but outside of 2007 nothing suggests that Dirk is questionable playoffs performer.

2005 wasn't great either